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302 or 351W for 450HP Roadster
I am looking start my build soon and my plan has always been to buy an old junkyard engine and tear it down and rebuild it. I was leaning towards 302 but I have been hearing 351W might be a better option. Not looking to add a supercharger or spray but planning on upgrading heads, intake, etc. Based off what I was hearing I started looking at a 96' Bronco 5.8. Thoughts? Any positive feedback is appreciated.
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Seasoned Citizen
Do yourself a favor and check out the BluePrint Engines website. Costs nothing to look and it could save you a lot of $$ and frustration.
As a general rule: there's no replacement for displacement -- go big as you can afford. If you've never built an engine before you probably don't know what you don't know and likely don't have all the special tools required for assembling one, especially one that uses any non standard OEM parts. And if you want 450 HP you're going to need cam, heads, and intake parts that are not standard OEM -- that means ensuring all these performance parts work together in harmony. So the first thing you should do is an honest assessment of your knowledge, skill, and tools inventory. Even with the proper tools and experience you likely can't build one for less than you can buy a crate engine with a warranty.
Dart Little M 406" SBC 800 HP N/A & 1,100 HP on nitrous, 2-spd Powerglide with trans brake, 6,000 RPM stall converter, narrowed Moser 88 3.90:1 spool with 35-spline gun-drilled axles & Torino bearings, custom parallel four-link, custom tube chassis & roll cage NHRA certified for 8.5-sec (only two FFR Hot Rods have this cert).
33 Hot Rod Super Pro Drag Racer Build:
33 HR NHRA Cert Roll Cage Build
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Senior Member
what Naz said... Can't beat Blueprint for the ease and price. If you're hell bent on building one up and don't have the experience or machine shop (neither did I), then a short block plus top end kit is the way I went...
Steve
Gen 1 '33 Hot Rod #1104
347 with Holley Sniper & Hyperspark, TKO600, IRS, 245/40R18 & 315/30R18, DRL, Digital Guard Dog keyless Ignition
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Part of the appeal for me is the idea of taking a junk yard motor and tearing it down, cleaning it up and rebuilding it. If i went w/ a prebuilt motor I think i would lean towards a used Ford Coyote w/ Trans that are around the same price (5k-7k) Sure they are used but 50k miles and i believe they are already rated around 430hp.
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Senior Member
Over 400hp, I would go with the 351w.
Kyle
Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017. Sold in 08/2018 and totally regret it.
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20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.
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Railroad, Why a roller block specifically?
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Senior Member
I'd go with the 351W and a 408 kit. There was no extra machining required for my 408 kit so it was a no-brainer for me. I have a 1974 block with a retro-fit roller (RF) Comp cam. All the shop had to do was drill/tap two holes in the block valley for the spider.
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Originally Posted by
Kjoyce178
Railroad, Why a roller block specifically?
Less friction, better cams, more efficient, no break-in. Its all ball bearings nowadays!
For 450hp, I'd def go 351 based. Easier to make that level of power. Generally more torque with c.i.'s.
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
Originally Posted by
NAZ
Do yourself a favor and check out the BluePrint Engines website. Costs nothing to look and it could save you a lot of $$ and frustration.
Double Ditto Regarding All Of The Naz's Comments!
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Senior Member
Basic plusses and minuses of 302 vs 351.
302
Cheaper parts
More clearance for both the air cleaner and around the heads when in the car. Nothing that hasn't been dealt with.
A 302 is going to be high strung at 450hp.
351
More cubes, more power. Or at the same power, tamer.
A little more expensive to build.
Less clearance.
Some guys will talk about bigger stronger journals. They are a plus AND a minus. Stronger, yes. But larger bearings have higher bearing speed, which is not good in an engine that you want to rev. Many builders actually use cranks with smaller journals. 302s don't have an issue here anyway.
Aggressive at 450, but not high strung.
Then there are strokers. If you are building, a stoker kit hardly costs any more than the standard parts. Why would you not?
302 block:
331 - 302 no block clearancing needed.
347 - very much the sweet option for an SBF. You really crank up the torque and HP in a compact affordable package. The clearancing is no big deal and well worth the effort. You have to get the block machined anyway. 450hp is still an aggressive engine. They can go to 500+hp, but will be a little nasty (I have one at 500hp. It is nasty and very loud. Sounds fun, but loud gets old)
351 block:
Lots of combinations - 357, 383, 393, but 408 is the most common.
Way easy to get 450hp and not be a radical engine.
There are bigger strokers for both 302 and 351 but require an aftermarket block.
My opinion:
Stroker - Get big block torque and hp but keep small block weight - a no-brainer. Stokers are well sorted and proven. If you hear rod angle and ring penetration stuff, that was all sorted out 15 years ago.
Roller - way better cam profiles, less friction, less chance of wiping a cam. They are more expensive though.
Heads - Ford heads are garbage. You cannot port a factory head enough to compete even with a cheap aftermarket head. Heads are where you get the ability to make power. Spend your money here.
If I were doing it again now with a large budget, I would do a 351 DART block punched/stroked out to 427 or larger.
If I were doing it on a smaller budget, I would do another 347.
Fordstrokers has DIY kit options. However, they no longer do factory blocks. They did when I did mine. I really enjoyed doing my own build.
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Senior Member
Everything Avalanche325 just said . . .
Doc
FFR3712K (MKII) in Lost Wages Nevada.
5.0 w/tubular GT-40 EFI, E303 cam, Custom 4 into 4 headers, T5, 3-Link 3.73 rear. Full F5 tubular suspension. Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, custom foot box air vents, custom turn signal system. 13" PBR brakes, Fiero E-Brake mod, Flaming River 18:1 rack w/ F5 bump steer kit on Breeze bushings. 17" Chrome Cobra "R's" w/ 275 fronts and 315 rears. MKIV seats. FORD Royal Blue w/ Arctic White stripes.
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Originally Posted by
Big Blocker
Everything Avalanche325 just said . . .
I'll put a little finer point on it.
I built 393w / H beam rods / forged pistons / solid roller cam / TFS heads / 10.5:1 compression / 3.55 rear gear / 6500 rev limit - spin 315/17 200tw tires in third at half throttle - changed to 6000 rev limit / 3.15 rear gear - better, but still scary.
If I were doing it tomorrow it would be 393w / any rod / forged pistons / hydraulic roller cam / TFS heads / 9:1 compression / 6000 rev limit - plenty enough for street tires to 100mph.
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I can't add any quantitative data to what's already been said, but I will say that my BluePrint 347 is every bit of what is good from the previous posts. Mine made 438 hp at 5800 rpm on the dyno and has a flat torque curve at 415'ish ft.lbs. all the way across the power band.
It's mild and tame when you want it to be and scary wild when you're looking for that. Engine and trans came fully assembled and ready to drop into the car. Also, BluePrint has a great warranty and great customer service.
Last edited by Papa; 07-31-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Senior Member
I also agree with avalanche325. Stokers are a great way to go. A couple things to think about. The 302 block is about 65 to 70 pounds lighter then the 351 block. Getting to 450 horsepower should be maybe a goal but if you put 400 in one of these cars with a 355 rear end, your going to totally enjoy it. Your state laws can also dictate by block what you can do or can’t depending the year of the block. In Ct if you used a 1977 block you would have to put on a smog air pump..... Several states have some crazy rules on getting your car street legal.you need to work around these laws.
Last edited by brewha; 07-31-2019 at 03:50 PM.
Mark4 - 331 Stroker - Fitech 600 -TKO600 - Moser 3.55
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“You using the whole fist, Doc?” - Thanks Boydster
Last edited by Kjoyce178; 07-31-2019 at 09:07 PM.
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Thank you a lot for this information, its really helpful. Sounds like 351 it is.
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Senior Member
Yes 351 for sure. here is one option of what you can get w/ a bone stock 351 short block and a top end kit from Edel.
400 hp w/ 9.5-1 CR which is easy to get and easy to run on regularly available premium gas
https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-...ford-2092.html
or 451 hp w/ same CR
https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-...ford-2090.html
Use the stock rods (cleaned up and balanced), the stock crank (cleaned up and balanced) and set of standard replacement pistons or slightly upgraded pistons. This is one example from one aftermarket company but there are others also. I forget the details but you can also do a 393 w/ a stroker crank but use standard 302 rods and standard 351 pistons. This used to be a very common upgrade. Although a roller cam is certainly better it doubles the price of your cam kit so I used a non roller in my 408. I paid a lot of attention to oil pressure and used a break-in oil plus a break-in additive from Comp cams. I kept using the additive for 2 more oil changes also, and all is well 4 yrs later so a roller is nice but not needed.
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
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Originally Posted by
CraigS
I forget the details but you can also do a 393 w/ a stroker crank but use standard 302 rods and standard 351 pistons. This used to be a very common upgrade.
Heh - close...
That's actually standard 351 rods with (fairly) standard 302 pistons.
Fairly standard 302 pistons - depending on the size of the combustion chamber of whatever head you use (compression ratio).
I said 9:1 393 - but you really wouldn't lose much with a 9:1 351.
At the time - I just happened to find a new 393 crank for the same money I would have needed in machine work on my (used) 351 crank.
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There is a sale going on now for Dart assembled short blocks. All the critical machine work done, but you still get the joy of picking and adding bolt on components.
20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Kjoyce178
“You using the whole fist, Doc?” - Thanks Boydster
Fletch! Haven't seen that one for 25 years.
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