Gen 3 Coupe windows

[Chris @ Forma]

All,
We are in the process of developing electric windows for Gen 3 coupes and before a wrap too much money up in development, I wanted to see how many people might be interested in this product. Anyone who has built a Gen 3 and looked at installing windows, knows this is not an easy feat.

The kit we are envisioning would include:

hardcoat anodized aluminum window frame
fixed front glass
operable main window with 10.5" travel
fixed rear glass in fitted frame
custom window regulator with one touch up/down (like a real car)
pinch protection on window up
rubber seals for doors and windows
electric door operator
emergency release cable for driver and passenger doors (operable from inside the car
Interior door panels
emergency driver door release located under hood (in case battery is dead)
waterproof push button integrated into the rear fixed glass bezel
New door frames
Door wiring harness
Assembly jigs (required for installation)

We are hoping to be able to offer these in the $3500-$4500 range (not installed) These ideally would be installed before paint as it requires a fair bit of cutting to the door skins. If done after paint, You would probably have to repaint the doors. There are 6 pieces of custom glass per set and I have to buy between 50 and 100 sets to get a reasonable price on the glass. Once again, I am trying to guage interest before I tie up a pile of money.

Please provide me with input insights, etc.

Thanks to all,

[Chris @ Forma]

Pics of the design190918 Driver Side -1 (sm).jpg
190918 Driver Side -2 (sm).jpg
190918 Driver Side -3 (sm).jpg
190918 Driver Side -4 (sm).jpg
190918 Driver Side -5 (sm).jpg
190918 Driver Side -6 (sm).jpg

[q4stix]

I like the idea and the implementation looks good, but the price makes it far too much for me for the added functionality. Having said that, I can see it being a hit for those that don't want to have fixed windows

[Alphamacaroon]

My $0.02: I pretty much bought every FFR option for my Coupe (so I wasn't going for a budget build), but at that price I'd probably have to pass or really think twice about it.

Another thought: I don't have my doors in yet, so I can't confirm, but I have this feeling like I'm really going to need a place to move and rest my left arm. It seems like the solution for me is to use the interior door cutout and some sort shelf to rest it on (I think similar to what edwardb is doing with his door inserts). It seems like I might feel a little cramped in shoulder and elbow room with this taking up all that space.

But damn, I do love this idea!

[Jeff Kleiner]

50 to 100 sets @ $4K. Sorry Chris, I just don't see it happening.

Jeff

[edwardb]

I saw the question before but hesitated to respond. Now that others have, see they're thinking the same as me. A fully featured Coupe build is not an inexpensive exercise, and I have the receipts to prove it. But at that price point, I'd pass. The prospect of roll-up windows on the Coupe is interesting I guess. But the other side of me says the more race inspired fixed windows (if used) are more in keeping with the originals and character of the car. I don't have a problem with them. Agree with Jeff. Hard to imagine you're going to find that many takers.

[Gordon Levy]

We've already done it. Yours is pretty a copy of what we have one.

[Fbird]

It is difficult to cram the workings inside such an undersized door. I like all your options, but I would never be able to bite on it with the price.Would it be possible to create a kit with a window frame with small studs hidden on the frame that could have lexan or glass with holes on it fastened into place. The studs would be visible inside the car but hidden from the outside. This way it would be mostly fixed, but possible to remove from the inside like t tops?

[Gordon Levy]

I honestly don't think a universal kit could be sent out for home install. There way to many variables. The doors are different sizes left to right. The fit will change depending on how the body is mounted. There also needs extensive mods to the doors themselves and then a compete inner door needs to be redone and upholstered. Realistically we would be willing to install systems but the cost will fall $5-$6K installed.

[Slider]

I would absolutely love to be able to put in roll down windows. The estimated price would restrict me from doing so. If it helps, I think I would be able to justify $1k for such an option, but beyond that would pass. Please know that I'm not saying you are overcharging for what you are doing and the materials involved, but it is more than I could justify

[Gbeck]

If I were building a Gen 3 Coupe would I be a customer at that price point? Probably so, but with some heartburn over the price tag and the amount of the work needed for the install. Proper door windows, along with some other amenities, was a "must do" item from the start for my Gen 2 build. I'm well down this road with a good bit of work remaining.

I've seen a good bit of interest in operable windows, but there are very few of us who are serious enough about it to take it on. At a little less money you might pick up some of those casual-interest builders. Enough to make it pay off? I have my doubts.

All that said, it looks like your design has the bases covered. Good luck!

[Logan]

Agree with the above... $3,500 to $4,000 for the convenience of roll-up windows is prohibitively high. Undoubtedly you WILL sell some kits, because to some people money isn't a problem and if the product exists at any price they will pay, but I don't think the average FFR builder is in that group.

I read a very short comment from about 1.5 years ago on this forum in Paul's Coupe #59 build thread by a user named 'Stack' (post #218, quoted below), and it has been in my ear ever since.

I wish they made them slide in and out like a jeep wrangler style window.

stack

I finally got on YouTube to try and see what he was going on about. I didn't know if he meant an OLD Jeep, or a NEW Jeep, or which window he meant. The windshields fold forward and clip to the hood on most Wranglers, I know, but I think the closer guess is the 2018 Jeep Wrangler rear/cargo side windows. Here's a link to a 1-minute clip showing what I found today: 2018 Wrangler Window Removal. The gears have been turning in my head for a window that is quick-release from the door via a simple mechanism or pair of 1/4-turn handles like shown on the Jeep. Basically like T-tops for old cars....pop them out, stow them in the back of the car or leave in the garage at home, and cruise. Remember, even if they're detachable from the door like I'm describing, they could still maintain the sliding "window" function that the current FFR components have. Sliding plexiglass is contained in the quick-release framework in a single package.

[Chris @ Forma]

Thank for the feed back. I agree that it is really pricey. We are working to reduce the cost. Unfortunately it is not an easy task. Since I posted this a week ago, I had a local design firm render our concept for the rear window. I've been traveling this past week and besides, they are better at it than I am. 190926_Forma_Daytona-Quarter-Window-Concepts-FF-Brand (sm).jpg

[Chris @ Forma]

Gordon is correct that it is very challenging to design a system that a home builder can successfully install without pulling all of their hair out. We have put a pile of work into developing our system to facilitate installation by folks that are not experts at reconciling 12 variables simultaneously. The process as we have designed it (we are waiting on some parts before we'll be able to try it) goes something like this:

Fit body and install doors using normal FFR door installation process using FormaCars door frames.
Cut additional holes in inner door skin using supplied templates.
Fit and install internal upper door mounting brackets to the upper door frame.
Remove door skin from the door frames.
Remove temporary mounting tube from door frame. This tube is in the location of the FFR upper door frame tube and is used to locate and fit door skin and to hold it in place while new attachments are installed.
With the door frame closed and latched, shim and install the window assembly to the body opening.
Remove window assembly from mounting bracket leaving mounting brackets attached to door frame.
Reinstall door skin onto door frame.
Drill two holes through door skin using drill guides that are integrated into the window mounting brackets.
Install door trimming template to the top of the door using the two holes drilled though the door skin in the previous step. Mark the trim line on top of the door.
Trim remove the template and trim the top of the door.
Install beltline trim to door
Reinstall the window into door.

There are additional steps for interior finishing, weather seals etc. We'll post more as we progress.

thanks,

Chris

[Chris @ Forma]

ASSISTANCE PLEASE
As we are developing these windows we continue to discover challenges. One of our challenges is that every body is a bit different. We have built our design around scan data off our coupe, however every body is little different. One of our biggest challenges is to guess how much they vary. We have two coupes in our shop right now, however, we don't know if these represent nominal size, small, or large. Here is where we are seeking assistance from others. Our rear quarter window will have a 3D printed and painted bezel that matches up to the body. We would like to employ some volunteers that have Gen 3 coupes that will help us determine how to fit our parts. The concept is that we will print bezels that we will provide to volunteers. We will ask you to hold these in a described location on your body and take some pictures. If the part is too large, we'll ask you to do a little sanding to get it to fit. In exchange for helping us out we'll offer a discount on the windows or any other product that we offer. Please let me know if this interests you.

Thanks,

Chris@Forma 191002_Forma_Daytona-Quarter-Window-Concepts-FF-Brand (sm).jpg

[Logan]

I have a Gen 3 Coupe-R body, delivered just a few months ago. It’s sitting outside under a tarp waiting while I build the rest of the car, so no bodywork has been done to it whatsoever. If that is a condition you’d like to collect data from, I’d be happy to help take measurements for you.

[GoDadGo]

Roll Up Window Are Nice, But Are They Really Needed?
Could An Easily Removable Window System Work Or Not?

1. What about doing removable windows, via a stainless steel lift off hinges, that would mount to the A-Pillars?
....https://www.zoro.com/component-hardw...lh/i/G1280183/
2. The window could latch at the rear and would stay in place as long as they are closed and latched.
....https://www.boatoutfitters.com/black...__D_BwE#218=57
3. Weather stripping on the body and a bubble seal on the bottom of the glass might make them weather worthy.
4. When you don't want the window or windows installed, simply lift them off and store those suckers like 1980's T-Tops.
5. Make them out of Lexan, Acrylic or Plexiglas and it could be a Factory Five Forum D.Y.I. Solution.
6. Put aircraft window Pop Vents in you can get some ventilation in them when they are installed.
....https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...SABEgKktPD_BwE

This K.I.S.S. It Solution Brought To You By Steve Your Humble Chevy Guy!
I Hope This Idea Is As Good As Installing A Chevy In A Cobra!

K eep
I t
S imple
S tupid

[q4stix]

I can also help on mine if you'd like

[Jeff Kleiner]

Could An Easily Removable Window System Work Or Not?

You mean something like the lift out windows with sliding vents (Part #60371) that you can buy through Factory Five?





Jeff

[GoDadGo]

You mean something like the lift out windows with sliding vents (Part #60371) that you can buy through Factory Five?





Jeff

Sir Jeffski,

The existing set up looks very period correct; however, that was not what I was trying to convey.

A window that hinges (Via Split Style / Slide Off Hinges) on the A-Pillar with the latch near the rear scoop window might work well and look cleaner with No Frame... A round bubble vent would be installed at the lower front corner of the window...The window would lock in place when latch, but could be pulled off the hinges when open so that it could be stored in the rear.

Not having the frame and being able to completely remove the window was where my idea was going.

The Stevester

[Chris @ Forma]

To those that have offered to assist thank you. I'll reach out to you in a week or so when we are done with the design. Stevester, i have long realized that there are simpler solutions, however, we take our guidance from our clients. Our client was probably going to buy a superformance if we couldn't deliver roll up windows. Thus we have developed what we believe will be a robust solution. We have manufactured our window regulator parts and acrylic windows. Our goal is to have this installed and operational before SEMA in a little over a month, though we won't have glass windows by then. Motors are due in in about 2 weeks. It's going to be a tight schedule but I think we'll make it.

Chris@Forma

[65 Cobra Dude]

Chris

I can help.

Thx,

Henry

[GoDadGo]

To those that have offered to assist thank you. I'll reach out to you in a week or so when we are done with the design. Stevester, i have long realized that there are simpler solutions, however, we take our guidance from our clients. Our client was probably going to buy a superformance if we couldn't deliver roll up windows. Thus we have developed what we believe will be a robust solution. We have manufactured our window regulator parts and acrylic windows. Our goal is to have this installed and operational before SEMA in a little over a month, though we won't have glass windows by then. Motors are due in in about 2 weeks. It's going to be a tight schedule but I think we'll make it.

Chris@Forma

Real Working Windows will put the car in an entirely different category!
I am looking forward to seeing your end product.
Good Luck!

[Slider]

I'm in the midst of a build as well. I'd be happy to provide any measurements or feedback as well. Just let me know

[Chris @ Forma]

Thanks again to all who have offered to help. Next week we are installing our new 3D printer on which we are planning on producing these parts. After we get this installed we will print and send out the sample bezels to those that offered to help....probably in 3-4 weeks.

It is a pretty phenomenal printer as it prints accurate, strong and fast. Material in nylon 12 and unlike FDM printing (we have 3 of these machines.) the parts are just as strong in Z as X and Y. Another advantage of this printer is the parts are no more expensive than our FDM parts. Anyway, we are very exited about this new machine and its capabilities.

I will advise as we get closer.

This week we are going to start building our first driver side window assembly and door frame. We already have our first two regulators 3D printed and as soon as the motors come in we'll have these assembled. I will post pics and videos as we progress.

Thanks again for everybody's input and suggestions. This community is why FFR is the best.

Chris@ Forma

[ynsinCA]

Definitely interested in this thread! I would love to see a manual version as well especially if that would reduce the cost.

[ram_g]

What is the latest status on this? Has the product seen the light of day, or is it still in development, or has the idea been canned?

[Chris @ Forma]

Well, the project is still alive though it has taken a Covid detour. My primary business was deemed essential and therefore we were mandated to stay open. Not that I wanted to shut down my small business, it is just very difficult to operate in these times. The we have three cars we are installing them in two Gen 3's and a Gen 2. The Gen 2 is a completely different animal, and I'm not sure I want to take on another one. As for the Gen 3 we are in the process of refining the design. I am in the middle of another project for one of the G3's that we are building and will be back on the windows in another week. I'll update everyone when I get a bit further along.

Chris

[Chris @ Forma]

Just a quick comment regarding one of the challenges that we discovered when we thought we we nearly done on the windows. The weather seal between the body and the window frame exerts an outward force on the window frame. It is not a lot of pressure but there is nearly 7' of seal that is compressed. Though our door frame is sufficiently rigid, the door hinges are not and the force causes the door to push out of alignment. We are investigating solutions...just no sure what direction this will take us.

[Chris @ Forma]

Just a quick update. We are finally closing in on being able to sell these. Some of what I thought would be easy tasks seemed to take forever, such as buying tempered glass. There are six pieces of glass in each kit and two (front wing window and quarter glass) are two small for most tempering houses to handle. I finally found one in late February, got a quote and ordered the glass. When I followed up in March the phone went unanswered as did emails. After several weeks of searching found someone new, but Covid-19 had them only working 1-2 days a week. They would send me a question via email. I'd answer half an hour later, then wait another week. At any rate, we finally have the major tasks addressed and we will ship the first kits within a week or two. I still am working on the installation instructions. Nothing is difficult but there are lots of steps. I'll post pictures soon.

[Chris @ Forma]

My English teachers are rolling over in their graves....too small not two small. I obviously depend on automatic spell checking too much.

[Briansshop]

Very interested in the kit. In for more info.

[delta0014]

I'd love to build a coupe someday, and real windows would be nice but that's a pretty steep price just for windows.

Any pics available? I'd love to see what it looks like. And curious how much it could cut down the interior noise, I heard the coupe's are relatively loud inside.

[John Dol]

I'd love to build a coupe someday, and real windows would be nice but that's a pretty steep price just for windows.

Any pics available? I'd love to see what it looks like. And curious how much it could cut down the interior noise, I heard the coupe's are relatively loud inside.

What?

[delta0014]

What?

What?

[Chris @ Forma]

Well they are a bit pricey, however, there is a lot to creating windows that go all the way down. Actually they stop about 3/8" above the top of the door. The kit will include the following components:

Billet aluminum window frame, machined from 5/8" 6061T6
Dot tempered glass
New door frames--FFR frames cannot be modified to work
New door latches and strikes
custom window regulators
Electric door actuator --can't reach in to open the door with the window up
quarter windows
upholstered interior door panels with arm rest, window switch and door release
brackets and fixtures for installing the windows
emergency door release located under the hood so that you can open the door with a dead battery

Initial pricing is $3499. We are in the process of building the first batch of 10 kits and 4 or 5 of them are already spoken for. Additionally we are installing a set in a clients Gen 2 coupe that is in our shop. I have previously posted CAD images and I will post real pictures in the next couple of weeks. We are just starting the installation instructions and I will make them available as soon as they are complete.

[Briansshop]

Is the interior "door release" solenoid activated or mechanical?

[Chris @ Forma]

The interior door release is mechanical via a cable. That being said, the arm rest that houses the window switch and door release also contains a limit switch that is actuated by the door release leaver. We use this switch to turn on our interior lights when the door is opened. We will offer this as an option that will include limit switches for both doors, timer relay to turn off the lights after a programmed delay, 4 LED foot well lights and wiring harness. We don't know the price on this option yet as we haven't rolled up a BOM yet. We are also going to be offering options for upholstery vinyl and leather.

[John Dol]

What?

I couldn't hear your question cause my coupe is too loud!!

[Briansshop]

Chris,I see the website says the kit is sold out,any idea when another run will be available? I'd like to get in line.

Update: Received an email from Kevin,3-4 week lead time.