Design Model - O's - Feedback and Suggestions

[kach22i]

Rodney, I added the mirror on the pillar and added Direct Air Intake for the engine.

Just an Idea.

Ideas are always worth a study, this one shows us it can get too busy and chopped up in a hurry.

I'm not sure how many sizes (tall and wide) "O" played with to get the existing side vent size, but I think he nailed it, and it needs nothing else.

[kach22i]

Here is an Idea for Exhaust .................

Nice adaptation, I agree the plate over the mesh will work fine. I did similar in several of my designs.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...EAR-yellow.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...heme1-rear.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...HEME6-REAR.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...heme4-rear.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...heme3-rear.jpg

Looks like the glass is taller than the doors are. How's that gonna' work out?

Jeff

Jeff, in an earlier post he claimed this has been fixed already. Like you, I'd like to see it myself, perhaps in a side elevation.

[bromikl]

Rodney:

NAILED IT!

[apexanimal]

i spy spoiler in there too

[BrandonDrums]

I just wanted to re-iterate my love for the recent updates to Rodney's design. My hair is still burning, I think the car is the equivalent to using napalm gel as a hair styling agent.

Not only is Dave's goal to have a "light your hair on fire" design met with this, but I think it's as important if not more important to have the initial design for the 818 be from a design competition contestant. Not only for honoring the winners but the story alone is extremely press-worthy. Further, I think now during post design-competition time, I think the designers that stand by their design and don't give up are more deserving of the ultimate win of getting their work into production form.

Guys like Rodney, Vman, Nouphone (Especially Rodney and Vman) have been extremely active in the community constantly and very kindly listening to everyone, making tweaks and continuously working to make their cars better. That speaks to me volumes as a consumer. The same reason I enjoy FFR with Dave and the Gang being so good with the community and really keeping their ear to the ground for what their customers want, I think that spirit is an essential element to this car.

I hope FFR considers that story and spirit of never giving up in the end with this thing. That tenacity even after the competition has ended is the type of stuff that movies are made of and the type of warm fuzzy feeling I want to have in such a community. Kudos Kudos Kudos to these guys for that.

[adesilva]

I just wanted to re-iterate my love for the recent updates to Rodney's design. My hair is still burning, I think the car is the equivalent to using napalm gel as a hair styling agent.

Not only is Dave's goal to have a "light your hair on fire" design met with this, but I think it's as important if not more important to have the initial design for the 818 be from a design competition contestant. Not only for honoring the winners but the story alone is extremely press-worthy. Further, I think now during post design-competition time, I think the designers that stand by their design and don't give up are more deserving of the ultimate win of getting their work into production form.

Guys like Rodney, Vman, Nouphone (Especially Rodney and Vman) have been extremely active in the community constantly and very kindly listening to everyone, making tweaks and continuously working to make their cars better. That speaks to me volumes as a consumer. The same reason I enjoy FFR with Dave and the Gang being so good with the community and really keeping their ear to the ground for what their customers want, I think that spirit is an essential element to this car.

I hope FFR considers that story and spirit of never giving up in the end with this thing. That tenacity even after the competition has ended is the type of stuff that movies are made of and the type of warm fuzzy feeling I want to have in such a community. Kudos Kudos Kudos to these guys for that.

One thing that I am wondering about Rodneys idea is if he is going to be changing the rear end as well? I absolutely love the revised front (hated the original) but am still not a big fan of the rear. I am wondering at that point if Dave will be seeing it differently because it really is totally different from what got 2nd place in the contest

[keys2heaven]

I, for one, love love love the high and wide rear! The stance is fantastic in my opinion. And the orange and black concept.....Wow!, what a difference a few tweaks here and there can have on a design. I thought the design submitted for the competition was brilliant, but these tweaks are off the hook.

I would love to drive this as the roadster version, espeically if the gelcoat were in this color orange!

Fantastic job. Now, can you show us this as a 3D revolving model?

[kach22i]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:

original:

[adesilva]

interesting changes Kach22, I personally like it either way but your method may make more sense in reality. I am not sure we would be able to have roll down windows in his original swooping door.

[BrandonDrums]

Long post

The two-tone body is one of my favorite features. But I see it as very expensive or even impossible in Gelcoat. I want to see the single-color renders (red or blue, not black) to see how it will look to a prospective builder who doesn't want to paint.

I imagine having black panels would make the no-paint gelcoat panels easier if they were to offer multiple color options. The black portions stay black reducing the number of panels needed to be gel coated or at least gel coated a different color at the factory.

The wheels look too big. Donor wheels will be 25" in diameter and between 8 and 9 inches in width. If those wheels are too big, re-sizing them to the donor size might make the wheel arches too big. You might want to play with the proportions to see if the spirit of the design can be kept with donor wheels. As it is, going larger than the 25" OD would work against the car's performance.

True but I like the idea of having room for wide wheels personally. One of the initial concerns many of us had before the design competition started was that the chassis having a more narrow track in the rear would make for a design template that limited how wide of wheels could be but out back. Having extra room back there might make donor wheels look wimpy but a simple addition of a decent size wheel spacer could fix that in a jiffy.

Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors.

Personally, I like the simple latches the '65 roadster has and something similar would be great on the 818. Integrating traditional handles on a door as light as this thing is bound to be is overkill. The only thing is if the car ends up having glass windows, we'll need a way to open from the outside but I think the latches from the '65 FFR could easily be adapted to have a key hole and a very basic handle on the outside to operate the interior latch. The '65 doesn't even have locks on the doors and you always open from the inside. The same door latches used on the '65 have a hole for a square rod that can easily go through the door to a handle with a simple locking mechanism as you can see in this pic

Attachment 5773

Vents/intakes. There's a wide swing of opinion about these. Personally, I'd prefer it if X amount of air flows into the front of the car, then 110% X can flow out. Hood heat extractor vents (like the '65 coupe) are preferable as we don't want to push more air under the car than there already is. Also, don't forget that airflow should be directed through the stock intercooler as well. It'll be easier to grab that from air flowing over the decklid. You might also hide the intakes by widening the transition from black to bodycolor on the headrest fairings and turning the step into an intake. It's nearly there as-is.

I agree with the above except it will completely cut in to the only potential storage space the car has. There might not be a choice but since there's a bar between the seats coming from the back, the idea of storing a targa top in the cabin behind the seats is out, I'm afraid the hood vent would eliminate that possibility along with the chance of having room for a couple overnight bags.

Overall, I love it. My greatest worry about this design isn't whether or not it's possible to do, but whether it's possible in the budget. Coming up with a simplified and more budget-friendly version to present to FFR might be a good idea. You could always design optional "add-ons" that could be sold with the car to bring it back to your ideal design. Remember, the target is for a $9K *base* kit. There's no limit to options. And options would = profit for FFR.

I think the design would be produceable in the budget as a roadster. Some of the more complex panels actually could be made with injection plastic molds as opposed to fiberglass if that made them cheaper, it would eliminate the need to have those panels gel coated giving less painted area. Also, the guys who made the CAD and then scale models of the 818 winners suggested having many, smaller panels instead of the traditional FFR large nearly whole-body shell for the 818 which would allow for more complex angles but would add seams and complexity to the build. I think smaller panels would actually make the build easier as you can adjust each panel to line up right vs. struggling with the entire car trying to line up the body. For example, my bud's '65 roadster's body is actually a good bit off center, the left front wheel arch is about 1/2'' over the tire, the other side has the tire about 1/2'' outside of the wheel arch. It's hard to tell but after struggling to get it to line up right it just got left. Multiple panels would allow one to fix individual sections instead of taking the whole thing off which is a 2 or 3 man job and virtually impossible to locate the parts that make the fit off.

[BrandonDrums]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:

original:

Nice, I think the lines on this design also do a good job of giving the aggressive wide look and enough room to make the cabin even wider if need be. While we're considering the side window line, we should also consider ways to widen the cabin just a tad.

You can see the panel seam drawn from the top of the door handle that curves up around the back, the cabin could start at that line which would mean a wider windscreen but I am a little concerned with the possibility of the windows running smack-dab into the shoulder supports on a racing seat. Modern full-back street seats have trouble fitting into the '65 roadster and I imagine it would be just as if not more difficult to fit them in this car.

[BipDBo]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:

original:

I much prefer this look. The dune buggy look is gone and replaced with a more agrressive chop-top look, but low curve is retained with the crease. I also like the higher door for practical considerations. In competition for my favor, the Olmos design was 2nd, with Nouphne in a distant leed. It is now a very close race.

I know that this car is designed as a coupe, but I think it would make a better roadster with a removeable soft top, which would be lighter and easier to store than a hard targa. I also doubt heavily that an 1800 lb car will have roll-up windows. I'm thinking solid roof frame covered with fabric; like a Jeep, but with curves.

My vote for the headlights is still "down in the black" as you showed with the blue sketch. It gives the car more attitude and less of a mainstream look. Also, down in the black, they could just be projector lamps, without cheap looking plastic covers, and they would be more protected from UV.

[bbjones121]

I love it!! The only part of the design i didn't like was the front end. This looks perfect.

[ElderDragon]

I love the orange one!!! I already like the Olmos design before this but I did have some reservations about the bluntness of the front. This change has dramatically improved what was already my favorite of the modelled designs! I would buy this car in a heartbeat!

One suggestion I would make would be that instead of making the central bulge the radiator exit, make the black areas behind the front wheels the exit. This will help fill in the low pressure area behind the wheels thereby reducing drag and also allow for a storage space in the front if desired.

[Steve91T]

I like the higher door. That was the ONLY thing that I didn't like, and that's also what gave it the cartoon look.

[305mouse]

I don't like the revised doorline. I don't think it had a dune buggy look. just my .02

[mentatbashar]

Hi everyone,

Been drawing a bit so I thought I would upload some work in progress. The front is something I have been focusing on, any thoughts?

I also have a 3d version I'm editing its coming along nicely Ill upload those soon.

Need it, want it, got to have it, build it, ship it... today!

[Steve91T]

What about splitting the difference and seeing what that looks like?

[ElderDragon]

On the issue of the rear blind spot, why not do what the C4 Corvette did and make the bodywork in the rear out of glass in the sight line out of glass? This is really the only solution that results in full aerodynamic bodywork with excellent rear visibility. I own a C4 Corvette and it has the best visibility of any car I have ever driven with the exception of a convertible with the top down.

On board storage of the targa top is really important as well. The front seems like the best place but that requires the radiator exit to be to the rear of the front wheels which may interfere with the passenger compartment. The other option would be to move the radiator to the rear, which would definitely give the most front storage.

The other option would be in the rear above the engine, but this seems like it would likely interfere with a bunch of stuff.

[Steve91T]

On the issue of the rear blind spot, why not do what the C4 Corvette did and make the bodywork in the rear out of glass in the sight line out of glass? This is really the only solution that results in full aerodynamic bodywork with excellent rear visibility. I own a C4 Corvette and it has the best visibility of any car I have ever driven with the exception of a convertible with the top down.

On board storage of the targa top is really important as well. The front seems like the best place but that requires the radiator exit to be to the rear of the front wheels which may interfere with the passenger compartment. The other option would be to move the radiator to the rear, which would definitely give the most front storage.

The other option would be in the rear above the engine, but this seems like it would likely interfere with a bunch of stuff.

Glass is heavy and expensive.

I agree that the rad. exit behind the wheels will take up lots of room. But there is absolutely no room to put it in the rear of the car. Mounting it on top of the engine, which already has the IC there, would never work. There's no way to get enough air through both the IC and rad to cool everything properly.

I'm sure there will be a way to put the rad up front, exiting through the hood, and still have a small space for storage.

Steve

[Oppenheimer]

I much prefer this look. The dune buggy look is gone and replaced with a more agrressive chop-top look...

+1.

[legacy_y_tu]

Wow! What a change. I was definitely not a fan of the original design but this has been tweaked beautifully!! Love it. Orange and black scheme rocks too.

[Oppenheimer]

I love Orange & Black (car I have now is that scheme) But can someone try making the roof color match the body? Wondering what that will look like.

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?

[kach22i]

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?

I have to get some real work done, so not today.

Here is my last study for today, looks like enough trunk room to me.

[adesilva]

I love Orange & Black (car I have now is that scheme) But can someone try making the roof color match the body? Wondering what that will look like.

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?

Agreed, if people are looking for a more mature look having the roof match the body would go a long way towards that look. ( I think he also did the black roof to give a look of how a soft top would look) Unless it is carbon fiber I dont think a black roof will look that great or be seen as "mature". It is more of a young person look that I have ever seen have the black roof.

[PhyrraM]

Downpipe and exhaust are not installed, so they will eat some of the lower area passenger side trunk, but there should still be full width available in the upper half of the trunk area.

[BrandonDrums]

This is funny to me, out of all of the SEMA pictures NONE of the 3 design competition scale models have appeared and there's Jim's front and center. Hope I'm not reading into anything but it's like the other's dont exist anymore. I really wanted to hear what the open public thought about the different designs at SEMA....

[adesilva]

I believe Dave actually mentioned before going to Sema that they would only be bringing Jims model so I wasnt surprised.

[D2W]

This is funny to me, out of all of the SEMA pictures NONE of the 3 design competition scale models have appeared and there's Jim's front and center. Hope I'm not reading into anything but it's like the other's dont exist anymore. I really wanted to hear what the open public thought about the different designs at SEMA....

I don't think they even took the other designs to SEMA. I would have wanted to hear what the public thought as well. Beerbaron, you saw the models in person, were the others not up to par for presentation?

[BipDBo]

I tried out the 3d viewer for the first time. Looking at it that way really reinforces my preference for the higher door. This will be a small car, so in real life, that door will be super low, silly looking low. Such a low door would not only look weird, but also give me the heebie geebies while passing a semi. I am not a fan of the dent in the roof. It seems to "overplay" the creases. The rear glass seems unnessesary. I'd change it from sloped to vertical to save weight and keep solar heating down.

[bbjones121]

I thought Dave mentioned the other models would not be going because of the lack of finalized details. FFR needs to show people a model that is complete with details, not one that is incomplete. I would assume this had a lot to do with the negative comments with regard to the lackluster first pics and the significant improvement with the addition of detail to jims design.

[ElderDragon]

It does look like the rear is the best place for the trunk and you might be able to fit a targa top in there, especially if it was a two piece or folding design.
For a rear radiator, it would have to be two piece and in the diagonal space in front of the rear wheels.

With regard the cost and expense of glass, a coupe is going to have a rear window so it shouldn't be more expensive to make it a bit bigger to wrap around and down to the body. It will be a bit heavier though. Perhaps the rear window could be plastic with an integral support structure (for instance over-molded body material around the outer edge with an integral hinge and latch) to avoid the rivet problems of the plastic window of the Type 65.

[olpro]

I believe Dave actually mentioned before going to Sema that they would only be bringing Jims model so I wasnt surprised.

Originally, Dave said he would take ALL the scale models to SEMA, to judge the reaction to them. That did not happen and you can't blame people for reading into this choice (of taking only Jim's model).

[olpro]

It is interesting to see the modifications that have been made to this design, by Rodney and others.
Personally I am holding any judgments on seeing a lot more in different views, etc. before declaring that this is the front runner. Showing a hot front end 3/4 view doesn't prove anything, even though there is great improvement in front end graphics.
The higher, stiffer belt line by Kach22i is interesting but disturbs me because it changes the entire DNA of this curvy, loopy design. Personally I like it better but it does redefine the whole direction.

All in all, these are the kind of changes that one would see designers making in a real studio environment. The designs evolve and generally improve (at least until the development engineers start to come in with their demands). I have yet to see an equivalent effort on any of the others by the FFR team, except on the silver model which has so far to go to meet even minimal standards.

[Psay]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:

original:

I prefer the low side windows from an aesthetic point of view, it give this car a unique identity.

From the 3/4 view that we have this looks as close to perfection as I have ever seen in a car design (it is the desktop image on my pc so I can keep looking at it). It will be interesting to see the 3D views and how the rear works.

From the models displayed by FFR this was my favourite by far. It will be interesting to see what happens to the other designs if they get similar treatment.

You have done an outstanding job with this Rodney.

[kitcarj]

Without the new front end I don't like the design at all but I also think the uptick of the black section under the back of the doors is a very important change (instead of the rounded down look it had before)

[ElderDragon]

On the subject of rear visiblity and my suggestion to make a full wrap around rear window (basically glass from the roll hoop back), I did some calculations regarding the rear window and it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Here is what I calculate:

Glass area for best visibility = 800 to 1000 in^2 (I measured 800 from my own design contest entry which specifically has a large rear window in the style of a C4/C6 but with a bit more taper for aero and weight reasons).

Density of SMC = .061 lb/in^3
Density of glass = .094 lb/in^3
Typical window glass thickness = .25 in
Typical SMC thickness = .125 in (assumed)

Glass weight = 18.8 to 23.5 lbf
SMC weight = 6.1 to 7.6 lbf

So if we go from a maximum rear window to no rear window, the difference is 12.7 to 15.9 lbf. I think most people want at least some rear window on a coupe, so in reality the difference between a full rear window and a half rear window is only about 6 to 8 lbs.

Excellent rear visibility is definitely worth 6 to 8 lbs to me for a combination street and track car. Minimum weight variants could have a plastic rear window (track biased coupe), no rear window (roadster) or no rear window and SMC in place (track coupe).

[Flashburn]

cheers,

Wow, somebody dial 911 and grab me a fire extinguisher because my head just got bar-b-Q'd.

[Draco-REX]

Love the new redesign. I'd buy either car.

The addition of the vents, specifically the hood vent, really make it great looking. Not too many, not too few. THough the hood vent might need to be kinda deep at the leading edge. The exit vent should always be larger than the entry intake.

As far as windows, if this will be a targa, you might think about designing a removable upper window and have a smaller roll-down be permanent; ala the Subaru SVX, Delorean, and Lamborghini Countach. Except the upper, non-retractable, portion of the wide window could be removed with the top. (not as one piece, but as separate pieces that could be tucked under the targa when it is stored.

Top storage is difficult. Personally, I'm willing to leave the targa (and windows) at home. But the 818 won't be a year-round daily for me. I don't think there would be much room for anything more than a golf bag over the transmission, and even less up front (don't forget the radiator, front suspension, and footboxes). The only solution might be to have a hard roof that can be fitted in the winter and a canvas stow-able roof for sudden showers in the summer. If designed that way from the get-go, it should be easier to set up than the 40-minute roof on the FFR Roadster.

Weight can be kept down by minimizing the actual glass. The rear window sees much less abuse than the windshield or even side windows, so it can be lexan. On the half-window design, the uppwer portions can be lexan while the roll-up is glass (so it won't scratch when being rolled up and down).

I really love these designs. I'd be happy to own either and I really hope FFR builds them. I wish, I wish, they will choose it first. But failing that, hopefully second.

[slopoke]

Rodney's and Vman's designs are really .... I think it's getting awfully warm in here ....