Basic suspension tuning question

[AdamIsAdam]

I hope this is not too basic for this forum, and if this post should be moved, mods please do so...

I auto-x'd my new-to-me FFR MKIV yesterday for the first time. I'm looking for suggestions on how to keep the rear, well, IN THE REAR! Obviously getting on the gas too hard kicks the rear out, but letting off the gas around turns also makes the rear want to come out even under pretty strong engine braking (which I would think would help slow the rear and keep it from wanting to pass the front). This is a street car primarily that I'd like to feel more confident in while driving it hard that it's not going to come around on me on the street!

I'm going to list the car's specs and post a video of my runs. The camera does not show just how much the rear wanted to slide until that one run where it does a 180 on me. And let me tell you this: the rear was coming out in nearly every turn, especially the big 180 turn mid-course, and when it did come out, it came out fast and was not stoppable (at least not by someone with my skillset ;-)

347cid, T5, 3-link rear.
Koni coilovers, currently with 500# springs up front and 350# in the rear. THEY ARE WAY too stiff for the streets of NY so I have Eibachs on order, 425#/250#.
New Nitto NT01's. I was at about 20PSI all around. For the last two runs, I dropped the rears to 16PSI which seemed to help. The roll indicator on the sidewall showed pretty good, that the tires were rolling to that little triangle.
The temps were only about 70* and the tires never really got over 105* on the outside right front, less on the inside by a few degrees. I'm hoping that was a contributing factor, ambient temp.
I do now know the alignment specs as I just bought the car this winter but it certainly drives, tracks well when just cruising around town aside from how "quick" it turns. I always feel like too much steering input and it'll come around easily on me. I drive with two hands on the wheel like I'm taking my drivers road test! lol

Here's the vid. As I said, even the run where I spin out to me doesn't look bad from that camera angle until the car is no longer facing the right direction! LOL. And you certainly can't tell just how much it's sliding in the other turns - at least I can't. But I assure you, it was.

I'd love to hear input from experts on how to make it handle a bit more predictably.

https://youtu.be/XeZ0zhI_3PQ

[Mike N]

A front sway bar will load the front more and that should make the rear a little less wayward. I adapted a Miata front bar to mine and it made a big difference.

[AdamIsAdam]

A front sway bar will load the front more and that should make the rear a little less wayward. I adapted a Miata front bar to mine and it made a big difference.

That almost sounds counter-intuitive. If the front loads, and I guess grips more with a sway bar, wouldn't that make the tail even more likely to snap out as the front turns? I could see suggesting a rear bar. And remember, right now the springs are SO stiff there can't be much roll, but I get it, that a bar still may transfer load back to the inside tire. But how does a front bar reduce oversteer?

[Mike N]

As you enter a curve the car rolls, the load carried by the tires due to the rolling is relative to the roll stiffness. Think of it purely as weight transfer. The stiffer end of the car will carry the most load. Push on a stiff spring and a light spring, the stiff spring will take more force to compress. It will react more load. It's pushing on the road harder. Right now your rear end is carrying too much load and it is losing grip. To get the rear to grip you need to lighten the load it needs to carry. There are a few ways to achieve that and one is to stiffen the front. Of course reducing stiffness on the rear will have a similar effect.

[Jeff Kleiner]

347cid, T5, 3-link rear.
Koni coilovers, currently with 500# springs up front and 350# in the rear. THEY ARE WAY too stiff for the streets of NY so I have Eibachs on order, 425#/250#.
New Nitto NT01's. I was at about 20PSI all around. For the last two runs, I dropped the rears to 16PSI which seemed to help.

When you dropped the rear tire pressure you actually went the wrong direction...to correct oversteer you need to RAISE rear pressure or lower the front pressure. I ran NT-01s for a couple of seasons and they aren't really working much at 70 degree ambient, particularly if it's an overcast day and the surface isn't being warmed by the sun (I'm on Toyo R888R now and they are pretty much the same). Your spring change will drop the front rate by 15% and the rear by 29%. Softening rear in relation to the front results in less ovesteer/more understeer but as we've discussed in another thread it will increase roll and potentially grip. Alignment wise less negative camber and less positive caster can reduce oversteer. Honestly I'm surprised you're complaining of oversteer during steady state because I've found that with the factory spring combination they tend to push (I HATE a car that pushes and intentionally run mine a bit loose with 750/500 springs, 1.5 negative camber and 8 degrees caster). With these cars driving style and input plays a big role. They pay off big for smooth inputs on the throttle, brakes and wheel and punish if you get abrupt or try to manhandle them. They ain't easy like a Miata but they sure are fun

EDIT: I hadn't watched your video until after I wrote the above. Watching from the camera's point of view it sure looks to me like the car is pushing and after you scrub off enough speed for the front tires to grip the rear steps out abruptly. This would explain why lowering the rear pressure improved things---by doing so you actually reduced the understeer which allowed the car to turn better without snapping around. That's how it looks to me anyway...

Jeff

[AdamIsAdam]

Very interesting. And thanks for the explanation. I just assumed if the front was gripping, why would it need a sway bar to give it more grip; it's already gripping. But I failed to recognize that the back is slipping out due to being overloaded.

I just got my new springs today, so I'll try those first and see who it goes.

20201109_112404.jpg

[mike223]

but letting off the gas around turns also makes the rear want to come out even under pretty strong engine braking (which I would think would help slow the rear and keep it from wanting to pass the front)

That almost sounds counter-intuitive. If the front loads, and I guess grips more with a sway bar, wouldn't that make the tail even more likely to snap out as the front turns? I could see suggesting a rear bar.

<snip> But how does a front bar reduce oversteer?

Either end of the car - anything you do to stiffen it reduces grip on that end and transfers grip to the other end - stiffer springs (or sway bar, or shock settings, higher tire pressure) on the front transfer grip to the relatively softer rear - stiffen the rear = same effect - less grip on the stiffer end, more grip on the softer end.


The "spin on throttle drop" is more weight transfer than engine braking (the engine braking is transferring weight off the rear) - short wheelbase, rear weight biased - get it loose + step off the throttle = you're going for a spin. Long and well documented in 911s, Vipers, Corvettes, Cobras, etc.


When it first starts coming around you have to straighten the steering wheel and get to neutral or slightly leading throttle - Get the weight back on the rear tires, keep the weight on the rear tires - learn to do it reflex quick - or you're going for a spin (every time).

Either that or do not approach the limit.

[AdamIsAdam]

When you dropped the rear tire pressure you actually went the wrong direction...to correct oversteer you need to RAISE rear pressure or lower the front pressure. I ran NT-01s for a couple of seasons and they aren't really working much at 70 degree ambient, particularly if it's an overcast day and the surface isn't being warmed by the sun (I'm on Toyo R888R now and they are pretty much the same). Your spring change will drop the front rate by 15% and the rear by 29%. Softening rear in relation to the front results in less ovesteer/more understeer but as we've discussed in another thread it will increase roll and potentially grip. Alignment wise less negative camber and less positive caster can reduce oversteer. Honestly I'm surprised you're complaining of oversteer during steady state because I've found that with the factory spring combination they tend to push (I HATE a car that pushes and intentionally run mine a bit loose with 750/500 springs, 1.5 negative camber and 8 degrees caster). With these cars driving style and input plays a big role. They pay off big for smooth inputs on the throttle, brakes and wheel and punish if you get abrupt or try to manhandle them. They ain't easy like a Miata but they sure are fun

Jeff

Yea, I wasn't sure on the PSI and the folks around me who offered input clearly weren't sure either! LOL If I had more runs, I may have been able to play more.

Regarding my planned springs change, so it sounds like the new combo should help the situation, if I'm reading your comments correctly. I know it will change a lot of variables since I'll have more roll as well. Remember, while I did really enjoy the auto-x and may do it again, my primary goal is a car that is more predictable on the street and less apt to come around on me. (Not knocking fillings out on bumps will be a plus).

Yes, it felt like the tires were NOT doing as well as they should/could. It was very sunny, but it's Nov in NY and at 70*, it was very warm for us but the crappy parking lot was not hot, that's for sure.

Thanks again for the input.

[AdamIsAdam]

EDIT: I hadn't watched your video until after I wrote the above. Watching from the camera's point of view it sure looks to me like the car is pushing and after you scrub off enough speed for the front tires to grip the rear steps out abruptly. This would explain why lowering the rear pressure improved things---by doing so you actually reduced the understeer which allowed the car to turn better without snapping around. That's how it looks to me anyway...

Jeff

I don't think so. That rear was ice skating the entire day. Even from the starting gate, if you notice, as I gave it gas it was spinning the tires (I wasn't slipping the clutch, it was the tires spinning). The rear tires were that easy to spin, under acceleration or by lateral force. It wasn't pushing. In fact, on the first slalom section I was amazed at how precise it felt, actually. And when I added speed each run, the tail started to wag. And on the 180, the faster I went, the more the back end just came out.

EDIT: Just fyi, the car always started to spin under throttle first. Letting off the gas allowed me to regain control if there was enough time or real estate to do so. That turn where I spun out was the source of many spins that day. You come off of a big right hander and then the shorter turns were waiting. I knew that going into it, but it's hard to remember it when you're going for gold!

[mhoward1]

Also remember that most of these cars are rear weight bias, and tend to be subject of snap steer. Do you happen to know your corner weights?

As other said with the weight distribution, the short wheel base, aggressive front camber will make for a very sudden weight transfer off the rear wheels. Most of us who have driven these cars aggressively have discovered how much they act like old 911s. On the bright side, they love slip angles. So if you can maintain the throttle (or ease off just slightly), open the wheel up a degree or two they will slide predictably. Once you are at a point where you can start opening the steering wheel up you can roll on the throttle and the rear end will plant itself and will launch itself at corner exit.

[AdamIsAdam]

I don't have the corner weights yet, but will get that when I get the alignment done at a race shop I know and trust. I'm curious to see the results and alignment specs. I do have the battery located up front down low, I think it's a Breeze kit that puts the battery in front of the engine on the passenger side.

I can't believe you are describing the driving as similar to the older 911's. I SOLD my 911/996 because I didn't like the handling! LOL I'm an old muscle car guy and also enjoy anything that handles well (provided it's front engine/rear drive).

Well, I'm going to enjoy (I hope) getting to know the handling characteristics of this car. I see more auto-x events in my future.

IMG_8837.jpg

[mike223]

On the bright side, they love slip angles

So if you can maintain the throttle (or ease off just slightly), open the wheel up a degree or two they will slide predictably. Once you are at a point where you can start opening the steering wheel up you can roll on the throttle and the rear end will plant itself and will launch itself at corner exit.

For the OP - slip angles are key.

Managing the slip angles (front and back) in a hard corner - using the throttle (alone) to transfer weight (grip) back and forth between the front + rear axles through that corner.


Using the steering wheel less and learning to steer it through the corner with the throttle.


"Drifting" - not the power slide that passes for drifting these days - "slip angles".


It's what these cars were built to do better than the (1963) competition. On skinny bias ply tires.



Pictured below is "too much" slip angle, but still not a "power slide" - useful to learn for safely scrubbing off speed when you get in a corner too hot - because if you step off the throttle right here, you're going for a spin...


62084_31a.jpg

[AdamIsAdam]

For the OP - slip angles are key...


Pictured below is "too much" slip angle, but still not a "power slide" - useful to learn for safely scrubbing off speed when you get in a corner too hot - because if you step off the throttle right here, you're going for a spin...


62084_31a.jpg

FINALLY! I get it now! You are exactly correct in what cause my spin!!! Take a look at the video right here and as I come out of the right-hander I lift... then slide. In fact, now that I think about it, I was sliding every time I lifted! But I was sliding when I was on the gas too, so then what?! Might that would be a time to brake with the left foot while staying on the gas? On a tight auto-x course, I have a feeling I was not making that next turn if I had stayed on the gas either.

Great, so drive it like a 911/930 Turbo, aka, The Widow Maker! Like I said earlier, I sold my 911 to buy the Cobra because I disliked the feel of trying to throw a hammer straight! lol (Well, that and the Cobra is WAY cooler!)

Well, at least if I want to look like I can drive better I can get into my 2018 GT350 and leave the nannies on and just go wild but it won't look nearly as exciting as the Cobra (I've actually successfully overpowered the nannies in that car too, on purpose. Physics is a *****! Or in YouTube speak: you just can't fix stupid. But that was all done on purpose to explore the car. You know, in the interest of science.)

[mike223]

FINALLY! I get it now! You are exactly correct in what cause my spin!!! You're getting part of it.

In fact, now that I think about it, I was sliding every time I lifted! But I was sliding when I was on the gas too, so then what?! Might that would be a time to brake with the left foot while staying on the gas? Not likely, see below.

On a tight auto-x course, I have a feeling I was not making that next turn if I had stayed on the gas either. You've probably got that right.

Great, so drive it like a 911/930 Turbo, aka, The Widow Maker! Absolutely - see here: https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ever-made.html


But that was all done on purpose to explore the car. You know, in the interest of science. Autocross should be required driver training.

Back to this: "But I was sliding when I was on the gas too, so then what?!".

And back to the picture of Stirling Moss or Jim Clark (I forget which) in the Aston Martin - There's only two ways to get in that situation (unless you're an early 1960's alien quality driver on bias ply tyres - more on that in a minute) - you either got in the corner too hot or you applied too much throttle too early.


You've got slip angles on both the front + the back tires - as pictured, the slip angle is a lot higher in the rear, but there's got to be significant slip angle in the front too, or he's about to be in the grass (and I seriously doubt he touched grass).


You only (purposely) induce slip angles as high as pictured (on the rear) to scrub off excess speed (without spinning the car).


It's not the "fast" way through a corner - it's scrubbing off too much speed and abusing the tyres (European spelling "tyre") - but it has a purpose - reduce the energy without spinning the car.


Bias ply tires could work better with higher slip angles than radial tires.


Off the top of my head I'm going to generalize that a "perfectly executed" corner on bias plys would probably average 8-15% slip angles (both ends), whereas the "fastest" approach is going to be more like 5-8% maximum slip angles on radials.

By the time you get to 15-20% slip angles you're living dangerously on bias plys - and that's more like around 10-12% on radials - you're no longer executing the perfectly fast corner, you're actually using the tires as brakes.



The beauty of widowmakers (in general) is that once you get them set up anywhere close to neutral handling in a corner at neutral throttle - you can then adjust your slip angles at both ends of the car instantly on track with what you're doing with the throttle.



But that's all a real sharp knife and a real big hammer (combined) - so learn it somewhere safe like autocross. You know, in the interest of science...

[AdamIsAdam]

Good stuff! I was trying to find out where "too hot" was. That's why I'm glad I spun at least once, but now that I know I spun because I lifted, I'm kicking myself for not staying on it. Hell, I may have been faster taking out that cone and eating the 2 second penalty. Probably not, I know.

It's SOOO easy to accelerate in this car, not to mention fun, that I assume I was going too fast into that (and most) turn. But I was posting 40 second times (dead center in the 60 car pack, not bad for the first time in the Cobra) and wanted 39 second times! hehehe

I would like to go back to that same course and try it again. Maybe I'll go there today before the rain washes the chalk marks off. I'm sure the town would love that.

[mike223]

I was trying to find out where "too hot" was.

That's where you have to start.

Much better to look for it on an autocross course than to find it the hard way out on the big road (widowmaker)...

[AC Bill]

Overall, I think for your first time at Auto-X, you did really well. You shaved four seconds off, and only spun the car once. Hard to tell if you hit any cones or not. I presume they would penalize you time wise if you had, and that wasn't apparent from the times posted. Pretty darn good for a rookie!

Personally, I wouldn't start modifying the car. Just get more driving practice, and really get to learn the car as it is. Every time you make a modification to it, you will be learning the car all over again. If anything, I would perhaps get a good set of Auto X tires for use exclusively on the course.
Our cars can be one of the faster Auto X cars, if you throw big $$ into them, but even then, they aren't usually the fastest car at an event. Race against yourself, and just have fun.

[AdamIsAdam]

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. I was very pleased with my progression, and then frustrated when I couldn't go any faster without wagging the tail. And I can tell the car had SO much more. The first time into the slalom I was amazed at how well it handled. Steering was incredibly sharp and precise, and at that lower warm-up run speed, there was no fishtailing, so it was just razor sharp. Then I went faster and all hell broke loose! LOL

I've got Nitto NT01's on there, so they should be good for auto-x once the weather gets warm again. I plan on softening the springs to make the car more enjoyable on the street. From there, I'll see how it effects it on the X. But it's primarily a Sunday toy, so I'm looking to make it as enjoyable as possible in that regard, racing is #2 to that. But I'm very glad to have a baseline before changing the springs though, cause I'm very curious to see the difference it will make.


(Oh, and I did tag the cone on the last left turn on the last run at the same spot that I spun previously (you can see my skid marks too). If you slow the video down at 7:50 you'll see the car slide towards the cone, I counter steered a bit and you can tell I didn't make it around. My score posted was prior to the +2, you caught me. https://youtu.be/XeZ0zhI_3PQ?t=470 )

[AdamIsAdam]

Update: It was another atypically warm day so I was able to put some mile son the Cobra with the new springs. Without being able to really test directly, back to back with the prior springs, the car feels almost the same, but maybe a tad softer. Those big highway "speed bump" type bumps that we get in the northeast are still jarring, but overall, I think the car is slightly more forgiving over some bumps. But it's still very stiff and if I didn't know I changed the springs I might not be able to tell. So that's sort of a good thing in that I was not looking to make the car drive like a Caddy from the 70's and I wanted to keep the sharp handling. I did go into one parking lot and try to simulate a few auto-x type turns and the car seemed to grip a little better. When I purposefully kicked the back end out, it was: a) somewhat harder to do, and b) seemed more predictable. I also stayed on the gas and rode it out more rather than letting go of it now that I know it drives like a throwing hammer.

Anyway, just wanted to share. Car is great. Gets crazy amounts of attention from both car lovers and those who haven't a clue what it is. Today, a gas station attendant asked if he could take a picture and asked if it was a Jag. A 10 year old asked if he could take a picture and explained that his father is a car guy (so I told him what the car is - now he can impress his dad). And then there were the countless "is it real?" questions. "Yea, it's real. You see me driving it, don't you?" lol (no, I didn't say that. i explained what it is and said to assume you are NEVER looking at a real one if it's driving around.)

[AC Bill]

It's highly unlikely the same course you ran previously would be ever laid out identically again, but it would sure be interesting to see if there is any significant time difference with the new springs.

[AdamIsAdam]

It's highly unlikely the same course you ran previously would be ever laid out identically again, but it would sure be interesting to see if there is any significant time difference with the new springs.

I hear ya! I really liked that course. I know the guy in charge of these events. Maybe I can bribe him to repeat it one day next season, or at least meet me in the empty lot one day with is bag of cones LOL

I'm also curious to see if my new "correct" gas cap will keep the gas from spilling out the neck during that big left-hand turn. Smelling fresh gas during the course certainly distracted me a bit going into the next turn! I had images of Ken Miles on fire going through my head.

[Desert Cobra]

Simple answer: the Cobra is too much car to autocross. Why do Miatas always do so well? Tune all you like, it will only reduce the problem. Take out horse power, add speed.

[mike223]

Simple answer: the Cobra is too much car to autocross. Why do Miatas always do so well? Tune all you like, it will only reduce the problem. Take out horse power, add speed.

I always say it's one of the most difficult cars to autocross "well".

They make little mistakes look like big mistakes - and you'd better not make a big mistake - especially not out on the "big road".


Which is exactly why it's best to learn these things on the autocross course.

[GoDadGo]

The Tail-Happy Nature of most Factory Five Roadster may have been averted if Dave and his boys would have located the driveline where Mr. Shelby placed the engine in his 427 models...You can see this 100% Real 427 Cobra has the engine located about 6 inches further forward than where a typical Factory Five Roadster has the Small Block Ford V8 engines mounted.

JAY LENO'S GARAGE:
https://youtu.be/eVxSqnNQR9s

In my car, the engine is located within an inch of where Mr. Shelby placed his FE motors so many years ago...This action was necessary to clear the distributor and the transmission's shifter...I'm just glad that I did what I did; however, the true test will be when I finally bring the car to the Auto Cross Course to try my hand and turning left and right playing the cone avoidance game that you guys have already mastered.

NAKED Dark Side MK-4
https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs

COMPLETED Dark Side MK-4
https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

I just hope I don't mess up my paint job when I try my hand at NOLA Motorsports when I learn how to turn!

[mike223]

The Tail-Happy Nature of most Factory Five Roadster may have been averted if Dave and his boys would have located the driveline where Mr. Shelby placed the engine in his 427 models...You can see this 100% Real 427 Cobra has the engine located about 6 inches further forward than where a typical Factory Five Roadster has the Small Block Ford V8 engines mounted.

I guess that's why everyone in the 1960s kept moving their motors further forward to make their road race cars faster...


Not.

[GoDadGo]

I guess that's why everyone in the 1960s kept moving their motors further forward to make their road race cars faster...


Not.

I think Mr. Shelby knew far more about his Cobra Design than we ever will.
He definitely knew more about marketing, branding, making a living, and having fun.
What impresses me most is He Was The Only Guy To Figure Out How To Make A Ford Go Fast!

Love Ya Mikee!

[mike223]

He Was The Only Guy To Figure Out How To Make A Ford Go Fast!

Love Ya Mikee!

I wish Mr Holman and Mr Moody were still around to hear you say that...

[NAZ]

Moving the engine to the front and taking weight off the rear (the end that's loose) sounds like a pickup truck's weight distribution. You're turning that little car into a P/U truck, stiff springs and weight bias forward. That should be entertaining.

Better look up Amontons' Laws of Friction.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Simple answer: the Cobra is too much car to autocross.

I guess nobody ever told Wade that. If he had known he probably would have quit taking all of those Fast Time of the Day trophies and beating shifter karts.



BTW; he was on 800# springs. just sayin...

Jeff


wade3wheeling.jpg

[GoDadGo]

Moving the engine to the front and taking weight off the rear (the end that's loose) sounds like a pickup truck's weight distribution. You're turning that little car into a P/U truck, stiff springs and weight bias forward. That should be entertaining.

Better look up Amontons' Laws of Friction.

Naz,

Please tell me what pickup has a 50/50 Front to Rear & 50/50 left to right weight distribution?
Unless it is a Ford, then I will most certainly want to buy it.
See Ya At NOLA Motorsports Soon!

Steve

[AdamIsAdam]

I guess nobody ever told Wade that. If he had known he probably would have quit taking all of those Fast Time of the Day trophies and beating shifter karts.



BTW; he was on 800# springs. just sayin...

Jeff


wade3wheeling.jpg

Jeff,
SWEET pic! Interesting that it pulls the inside front tire off the ground like a 911 does.

(As for the #800 springs, I started off wanting softer springs to make the car more comfortable on my lousy NY streets. I know things got muddy before, but I was never doubting the effects of stiffer springs and racing.)

I always say it's one of the most difficult cars to autocross "well".

They make little mistakes look like big mistakes - and you'd better not make a big mistake - especially not out on the "big road".

Which is exactly why it's best to learn these things on the autocross course.

Agreed! It's a good and (relatively) safe place to explore the car's limits due to lower speeds and fewer things to crash into!

[GoDadGo]

(As for the #800 springs, I started off wanting softer springs to make the car more comfortable on my lousy NY streets. I know things got muddy before, but I was never doubting the effects of stiffer springs and racing.)

I See An Auto Crossing Challenge Car Being Built In Your Garage In The Near Future!

[AdamIsAdam]

I See An Auto Crossing Challenge Car Being Built In Your Garage In The Near Future!

Oh lord no! If I really wanted to get into auto-x'ing on a regular basis I'd just buy a $5k NB Miata. I do like that it's the only autosport that is still available locally here on Long Island. Sad, but true. The US birthplace of auto racing is now dead here. The car scene is still HUGE but land it too expensive and population too dense to combat the "not in my backyard" mentality. Hell, even Englishtown closed last year. It's a few hours to the closest drag strip or road course.

[GoDadGo]

Adam

> What about getting an extra set of adjustable coil-over shocks and some sticky tires for your play days?
> It would be way easier on the budget and take up a lot less space in your garage than another car.
> When you are changing the tires, you just spend an extra hour or two to replace the shocks.
> Since you are running a 3-Link rear, the process is a lot easier than the IRS Setup.

Steve

[AdamIsAdam]

I might consider spending a few hours of prep time if a full day of auto-x yielded more than 8 minutes of actual driving time! It's that reason that I like HPDE days on a full track. That's typically four 20 minute sessions. It's a longer drive and a longer day, but one that I can do with the GT350 pretty easily. The FFR? Not so much.

[AdamIsAdam]

Interesting info on "mid-engine" cars here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-en...ar-wheel_drive

I just measured and the front of my engine block is about 16+" behind the center of the front wheels. Wow.

So, do you think "mid-engine" means between the axles or behind the driver and in front of the rear axles? Opinions...

[mhoward1]

Interesting info on "mid-engine" cars here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-en...ar-wheel_drive

I just measured and the front of my engine block is about 16+" behind the center of the front wheels. Wow.

So, do you think "mid-engine" means between the axles or behind the driver and in front of the rear axles? Opinions...

I always considered mid engine between the axles. There are FME and RME versions.