Holley Sniper-Hyperspark Initial Idle Timing

[Otee453]

Hi friends.
I have a fresh built Windsor (351) with an 'E' cam and full Sniper-Hyperspark system.
First start went well (just started, not run up to operating temp yet) but I need to set initial timing & I'm wondering if anyone has some personal insight.

I set static timing at 10° and disabled 'Idle Spark' control. This is the Holley prescribed method for first start, but Holley doesn't prescribe what to set static timing at. I believe 10° is too retarded as after 30 seconds of running, I started getting slight stall and a good flamed backfire from the exhaust. Holley uses 15° as an example only.

I have seen on the Holley forums that some people have initial idle timing set as high as 25°. That seems to be too advanced to me. The entire point in the process is to phase the actual timing to the Hyperspark ECU timing, allow engine to get to operating temp and then go to the next steps of break in.

What initial timing did you guys use with a similar cam with a 110° lobe separation?

Thanks

[BradCraig]

Your static timing is just to get your disti synced up with what the Sniper thinks its at and get inductive delay dialed in. Verify with a timing light and once correct you can disable static timing and set you timing for Idle, cruise, and WOT. I'm at 22 idle and have done quite a bit of tuning on my table. It's really not too much, it's what a vacuum advance disti at idle would pull at least.

I see a lot of people follow the Hyperspark install instructions, stab the Disti and keep rolling. You definitely need to verify with a light and probably need to give it a little twist to get dialed in.

[FF33rod]

I have a 347, same ignition as yourself with a slightly less mild cam (trickflow stage 2). Was advised to set idle timing at 14-16 by the performance shop that I got most of the parts from. Recently had to have some work done on it by a local shop and they put it on the dyno, also advised 16 BTC. Seems to run great at that (34 total).

Steve

[Otee453]

Your static timing is just to get your disti synced up with what the Sniper thinks its at and get inductive delay dialed in. Verify with a timing light and once correct you can disable static timing and set you timing for Idle, cruise, and WOT. I'm at 22 idle and have done quite a bit of tuning on my table. It's really not too much, it's what a vacuum advance disti at idle would pull at least.

I see a lot of people follow the Hyperspark install instructions, stab the Disti and keep rolling. You definitely need to verify with a light and probably need to give it a little twist to get dialed in.

That was my plan but the exhaust backfire made me rethink the 10°. Good to know that 22° is not excessive

I have a 347, same ignition as yourself with a slightly less mild cam (trickflow stage 2). Was advised to set idle timing at 14-16 by the performance shop that I got most of the parts from. Recently had to have some work done on it by a local shop and they put it on the dyno, also advised 16 BTC. Seems to run great at that (34 total).

Steve

Thanks. Im not a cam expert by any means but I think the TFS 2 and the ford 'e' cam are often compared to each other performance wise. TFS 2 has a 112° lobe separation but I've seen 110°-112° separation falling into the same general group for the Sniper/Hyperspark.


This all gives me a good starting place... better than where I initially was thinking.

[Norm B]

Your cam card should have a recommended initial timing setting without vacuum advance. My cam card settings were 12-14 degrees BTDC at idle and 34 degrees all in at 3000 rpm. With the vacuum advance connected on my old distributor it was pulling 25-27 degrees BTDC at idle. No pinging or knock detected. I set cranking timing on the Sniper at 12degrees, idle at 25, WOT at 34 and cruise at 45. After the Sniper learned for awhile it was pulling up to 49 degrees in cruise but would immediately drop to 34 if you touch the throttle. Great mileage and kinda scary throttle response.

Norm

[Otee453]

Your cam card should have a recommended initial timing setting without vacuum advance. My cam card settings were 12-14 degrees BTDC at idle and 34 degrees all in at 3000 rpm. With the vacuum advance connected on my old distributor it was pulling 25-27 degrees BTDC at idle. No pinging or knock detected. I set cranking timing on the Sniper at 12degrees, idle at 25, WOT at 34 and cruise at 45. After the Sniper learned for awhile it was pulling up to 49 degrees in cruise but would immediately drop to 34 if you touch the throttle. Great mileage and kinda scary throttle response.

Norm

Ughh... so obvious, yet I never thought to check the spec card!
Thanks!

[phileas_fogg]

As BradCraig implies, I think you're confusing the timing calibration with the settings in the timing table.

What you describe in post #1 is calibrating the ECU to what is actually happening in the car. It doesn't matter what (reasonable) value you choose for this action. I set the static timing to 25* (a good friend & experienced tuner uses 20*) and then, using my timing light, adjust the distributor until I get 25* dead-nuts on (disabling Idle Spark Control of course). At that point, the ECU knows what 25* is, and will accurately command whatever value you set in the timing table. [NOTE: Some Holley distributors want you to rev the engine as part of this test to ensure the timing doesn't move off your commanded timing & adjust the inductive delay parameter if it does.]

You'll set the actual timing curve in the timing table. Note that the idle value you specify "overrides" the value you specify in the timing table; i.e., the ECU will vary the timing (plus or minus a couple of degrees) to maintain the idle RPM you set. That's why you disable the Idle Spark Control...so you can actually see what the car is doing in response to a non-varying command.

The Holley-default timing table for my 302 with E-cam is 15* crank, 25* idle, WOT ~35* & cruise at 44* >3000 RPM.


John

P.S. This is for a Holley Terminator EFI.

[rich grsc]

Spot on John, good explanation.

[Norm B]

I agree, John’s explanation is spot on. If you are using the Quick Start instructions that come with the Sniper, STOP. Go online to Holley and download the most recent complete manual. Lots of really helpful information there.
As John said, the static timing is used to ensure the distributor is properly positioned to give the Sniper the correct timing reference. It is also really handy to setup idle speed. The Sniper will try to get down to the idle speed with the IAC and when that runs out it starts retarding the idle timing. It can be like a dog chasing its tail trying to stabilize the idle.
Here is the procedure I used.
Warm the engine as best possible.
Set the desired idle speed.
Set static timing at 15 degrees.
Adjust the idle adjusting screw on the Sniper to get 5 to 10% reading on the IAC at the desired idle speed.
Clear the static timing value.
Enable idle timing.
Reset the idle screw to get back to the 5 to 10% on the IAC. You will probably have to turn the screw out a little because the Sniper will advance the idle timing. You may have to adjust again as the Sniper learns.

HTH

Norm

[Otee453]

As BradCraig implies, I think you're confusing the timing calibration with the settings in the timing table.

What you describe in post #1 is calibrating the ECU to what is actually happening in the car. It doesn't matter what (reasonable) value you choose for this action. I set the static timing to 25* (a good friend & experienced tuner uses 20*) and then, using my timing light, adjust the distributor until I get 25* dead-nuts on (disabling Idle Spark Control of course). At that point, the ECU knows what 25* is, and will accurately command whatever value you set in the timing table. [NOTE: Some Holley distributors want you to rev the engine as part of this test to ensure the timing doesn't move off your commanded timing & adjust the inductive delay parameter if it does.]

You'll set the actual timing curve in the timing table. Note that the idle value you specify "overrides" the value you specify in the timing table; i.e., the ECU will vary the timing (plus or minus a couple of degrees) to maintain the idle RPM you set. That's why you disable the Idle Spark Control...so you can actually see what the car is doing in response to a non-varying command.

The Holley-default timing table for my 302 with E-cam is 15* crank, 25* idle, WOT ~35* & cruise at 44* >3000 RPM.


John

P.S. This is for a Holley Terminator EFI.

This is what I was understanding. Engine stalling & Backfiring before I had a chance to even sync the actual timing to the sniper timing was what had me wondering. Its good to know that the initial setting doesn't matter a whole lot.

I agree, John’s explanation is spot on. If you are using the Quick Start instructions that come with the Sniper, STOP. Go online to Holley and download the most recent complete manual. Lots of really helpful information there.
As John said, the static timing is used to ensure the distributor is properly positioned to give the Sniper the correct timing reference. It is also really handy to setup idle speed. The Sniper will try to get down to the idle speed with the IAC and when that runs out it starts retarding the idle timing. It can be like a dog chasing its tail trying to stabilize the idle.
Here is the procedure I used.
Warm the engine as best possible.
Set the desired idle speed.
Set static timing at 15 degrees.
Adjust the idle adjusting screw on the Sniper to get 5 to 10% reading on the IAC at the desired idle speed.
Clear the static timing value.
Enable idle timing.
Reset the idle screw to get back to the 5 to 10% on the IAC. You will probably have to turn the screw out a little because the Sniper will advance the idle timing. You may have to adjust again as the Sniper learns.

HTH

Norm

Thanks you all. I really appreciate all the comments.

This process (above), setting the actual distributor position to match the sniper timing setting then doing all the other stuff, was exactly my plan. I understand the static timing and what it does. Where I started wondering on my 10° setting was after about 30 seconds of running, the engine started to die and then give a serious backfire (flame included) out the exhaust and then the engine would recover and then do it again. My first thought was 10° was too retarded causing that. I did shoot the light on it and it was actually showing about 7° actual on the balancer, but I shut the engine off before I was able to rotate the distributor to match 10°.

Im now suspecting a vacuum leak and will be verifying none exist with my smoke machine, then run & start the sniper timing stuff. I initially only torqued my intake one time. I have since gone and retorqued another 4 sequences, until I got no movement in any bolts. This shocked me since I knew to retorque after the first few heat cycles, but not that I'd have to re-torque like this. I also wonder on my pcv routing. The valve cover grommet was not as tight as I would've liked.

[Para]

This a a great upgrade for overall driveability. Does it also have the ability to detect knocking and turn the timing back?
When I switched from a Carbed Harley to and EFI setup, it was faster, smoother, no knocking, ....everything

Prob biggest pain in the arse is having to drop the tank and put in a fuel pump with return line (although I have seen some that don't even req that)

[BradCraig]

This a a great upgrade for overall driveability. Does it also have the ability to detect knocking and turn the timing back?
When I switched from a Carbed Harley to and EFI setup, it was faster, smoother, no knocking, ....everything

Prob biggest pain in the arse is having to drop the tank and put in a fuel pump with return line (although I have seen some that don't even req that)

No knock sensors, have to use your ears! In tank pump is the best way to do it.