Door panel location and door swing, hood & fenders

[fletch]

We tried installing our door panel fairly far outward to (1) give the car a sleeker, more continuous look, and (2) align with the edge on the side sail. At the bottom of this picture you can see the alignment of the door with the side sail.
IMG_4962.jpg

At the center/top you can see the gap between the door panel and the fender. We trimmed away all the return edge of the fender to increase the space between the door and the fender toward the bottom. The problem with our choice to align the door panel with the side sail is that the door contacts the fender even though we trimmed the fender down. In this photo you can see how far we are able to open the door before it contacts the fender. We think this is barely livable and would appreciate any input on solutions you might have.
IMG_4963.jpg

Also worth mentioning is the top rear of the fenders are probably not in their final locations. The hood actually pushes them out about 1" from where they would sit at rest. This messes up the body line that runs from the headlight bucket to the back of the door (and eventually to the side scoop in front of the rear fender). We would like to keep this body line more consistent throughout and are considering trimming the rear of the hood to allow the fenders to move inward a bit.
IMG_4967.jpgIMG_4969.jpgIMG_4968.jpg

And one more question... What is the vertical offset between the bottom of side sail (or chassis) and the bottom of the front fender in front of the wheel? If we put a straightedge along the underside of the chassis, would the front fenders be above, below, or aligned with that straightedge? Hope that makes sense.

[lance corsi]

Allowing for the thickness of the splitter, I’ve set my front height in the same plane as my floor pan. You’ve got a tuff one here. I set my side panels per the manual however when I installed my top, I had to shift one side a bit to square up the gap between the roof and the tail panel. Everything is fungible unless you pin down the panel to a reinforced edge so as to allow repeatability when adjusting. For instance, I’ve chosen to reinforce my panel edges with strips of 1” x 1/4” steel, formed to fit the edge. It allowed me to attach the panel with small screws and provided a base upon which I could easily add adjusting tabs. It added work to the project but was worth the effort.

[aquillen]

What he said...
I hung things in place using tape, wood blocks, clamps and whatever it took, then shifted things as seemed to look best to me while stepping back and looking it over. Did this more than once before I settled on where it would all go. I think I started with the bottom of the sail to the frame as far as final drilling and screwing it together (no rivets in my assy). Doors to sail, roof (coupe) to sail. Then tail and hood. And read all the threads - as many different ways to do it as all of those...

[lance corsi]

Fletch, like Art says, try to use screws where possible as you never know if you’ll need access to something that lies beneath. I’m only using rivets where I’m sure no further access will be necessary.
I will say however, that the first item to square up is the top/side panels. Use the gap between the top and the rear panel as a guide. This will affect the door fit. The door openings should be even with the top where the two meet. Then fit the doors.

[fletch]

I really appreciate the responses, but have to say I'm struggling with which order to do things. One additional challenge that I think is somewhat unique to our build is the white hardtop we have sat at FFR for a while. I think it actually sat on the ground or floor for a few years because the curve at the rear edge is far flatter than the mating curve of the rear bumper. I think I'll try Lance's balsa hood reinforcement trick back there to restore the curve once get to actually laying fiberglass mat and playing with epoxy...
Let me explain what we've done and where we are with it.

1) Roughly located the side sails to the chassis using the 5/8" setback from the vertical in front of the cabin.
2) Set the hardtop in place, keeping carriage bolts at the front loose.
3) Clamped the rear bumper to the side sails and played with alignment of sails, top & bumper, setting gaps as best we could.
4) Measured the width of the hardtop at a point roughly 15" from the rear edge.
5) Raised hardtop out of the way. Used a temporary wooden brace to pull the side sails together at that location to the measured width.
6) Lowered the hardtop and confirmed a good fit for all panels at the rear.
7) Clecoed the rear bumper to the side sails to reclaim some clamps! :-)
8) Aligned the side sails left to right to ensure similar wheel/tire setback. Put 1 screw in each side sail at the shock tower brace.
9) Lowered the hardtop and confirmed all was still in good shape. NOTE: Because the hardtop has such a lack of curve, we have always had to press the corners in to make the fit at the bumper/fender joints. I don't think this is causing us a problem right now, just wanted to mention it.
10) Started working the fenders, black nose piece, hood, etc. without moving the side sails. Raised and lowered the front of the hardtop a few times to try to get things to line up a little better. Then we realized we should probably work on the doors since those would control hardtop height at the front.

11) Bolted the rear of both fenders to the side sails.
12) Installed driver door striker following Wayne's VCP door alignment tricks post. We used Wayne's tips for most of the door work.
13) Installed door latch & mounted door frame to chassis
14) Aligned bottom of door panel to crease/line on side sail. Notched rear of door panel & bolted rear of panel to door frame
15) Confirmed door panel alignment and screwed front of panel to top & bottom of door frame.
16) Checked door swing and found the interference with the front fender. Trimmed the inside of the fender a bit to gain some clearance.

And that's where we stand. I honestly think the side sail position will have no effect on this interference because the distance between the door striker and the fender is fixed by the length of the side sail, not its position. Further, because the door frame sets the distance between the striker and the hinge point, moving the side sail will have no effect on the position of the hinge point as compared to the fender. I think the only way to resolve the interference between the door panel and the fender is to move the door panel inward. This interrupts the body line that runs from the headlight to the rear scoop so I'd prefer not to do that.

I would appreciate any thoughts you have to offer about what we've done so far and other things we should try. I don't know how to set the hardtop in position without the doors mounted since the side sail + door panel sets the height for the hardtop. I also wouldn't mind seeing some photos of where your door panels ended up compared to the side sail body line and inside the fender. Thanks!

[lance corsi]

Fletch sounds like you have a firm grip on things. You may have to pull the front edge of the door skin out to align with the fender. Just adjust the top while leaving the bottom aligned with the crease of the side sail.
I’m not a big fan of the gap between the fender and door so I cut the bent part off the doors and glassed on a straight piece. After a little body work and lowering the front fenders by about 1/2”, the body lines are unbelievably aligned.
Just my personal preference.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Fletch,
This is my gap with ZERO trimming. But I did move the whole doghouse about 3/4" forward to make it work. You can see the fender to side-sail misalignment in this picture. 5 years ago my intent was to extend the front of the side-sail to match the fender. To this day, I have done zero fiberglass work on my car. If I lay a straight edge on the door and the fender, it is on the same plane.

[J R Jones]

You guys loose me with FFR jargon. I have heard the term "side sail" in automotive discussion, and sail panel was something different:
"The roof rear-quarter panel on a notchback body style that extends from the rearmost side window to the rear window."
Based on misalignment in the photo I am guessing the topic is the front end of the rocker panel, which is an extension of the quarter panel, does not align with the front fender.
I do not understand how this is justified by "kit & cheap". Looks like exploitation.
jim

[Bob_n_Cincy]

You guys loose me with FFR jargon. I have heard the term "side sail" in automotive discussion, and sail panel was something different:
"The roof rear-quarter panel on a notchback body style that extends from the rearmost side window to the rear window."
Based on misalignment in the photo I am guessing the topic is the front end of the rocker panel, which is an extension of the quarter panel, does not align with the front fender.
I do not understand how this is justified by "kit & cheap". Looks like exploitation.
jim

Hi Jim, I don't know where the term side-sail comes from. Maybe the term "rear quarter/rocker panel" was too long to type.
When building the 818S the humped engine cover hit the roll bar. So my solution was to move the body toward the rear.
Also, the doors wouldn't open all the way so my solution was to move the doghouse forward.
This does make the fender rocker joint look "kit & cheap". Since I'm not a fiberglass guy and I'm mostly using the car for track days. I can live with the ugly joint.

Each builder has to make decisions on whether they want a show car or a racecar.
My goal was to have priceless time with my son on this build.
Mission accomplished.
Bob

[fletch]

Bob,
Thanks for sharing your solution. I had not considered intentionally offsetting the front. That may solve several problems at once…and create a few more. I’ve found that many successes can be traced to choosing which problems to tackle! I’ll head out to the garage later tonight and give that some thought.

[J R Jones]

Hi Jim, I don't know where the term side-sail comes from. Maybe the term "rear quarter/rocker panel" was too long to type.
When building the 818S the humped engine cover hit the roll bar. So my solution was to move the body toward the rear.
Also, the doors wouldn't open all the way so my solution was to move the doghouse forward.
This does make the fender rocker joint look "kit & cheap". Since I'm not a fiberglass guy and I'm mostly using the car for track days. I can live with the ugly joint.

Each builder has to make decisions on whether they want a show car or a racecar.
My goal was to have priceless time with my son on this build.
Mission accomplished.
Bob

I guess that is the "social" in social media. I assume the "doghouse" is the front hood and fenders.
My quote "kit and cheap" was not referencing your parts or your work, they are the excuses forum members make to me when I critique design / manufacturing flaws in FFR product. I never see those attributes(?) in FFR advertising.
My career was in recreational products competing against major Japanese manufacturers. They set the market bars very high and if we did not compete on quality, then we lost sales and were humiliated in some aspects of the media. I have done international projects and Taiwan strives to be likened to Japanese quality. I have worked with a major German car company and they recognized Japanese MFG quality and strove to understand how they achieved that quality at the price point. That influenced my perspective, that if you think you are the best in your industry, then the customers must agree for it to be true. The alternative is to recognize your product as the cheap alternative. If that is the goal, makes me cringe.
jim

[lance corsi]

I do wonder what the impact on sales is when there are posts such as this. Personally I believe that FFR has failed to maximize sales of the 818 due to lack of engineering. This discourages people from dropping their hard earned money on an iffy product. If FFR would finish the design, they could not only sell more units but also offer upgrade levels at certain price points. They tout the car as “ unique” they say “no two are the same” ! To me, that’s a red flag. The fact that they are so reluctant to fix their design is discouraging. But in the end, nothing I can say will affect my situation. My money has been spent. I don’t feel as though my car is truly representative of the product they are selling. To tell someone that my car is what they will be getting if they purchase the kit is very misleading. Then if someone buys a kit and is over their head in the project, it gets sold as an unfinished kit. Another red flag for anyone considering buying one.
In the end, FFR is only hurting themselves by not continuing the design of the 818. The interest is there, but reading posts like this will fix that. It’s a shame, really. And then I see all the fuss about new models. Hmmm... I wonder if those new kits are engineered similarly to the 818. It does make one wonder.

[Jetfuel]

As I read through the sub-forums I find that the issues/concerns or problems are not solely of the 818 builders.
Air bubbles in the fiberglass, panels that don’t align, I understand that there are thousands of roadster out there compared to the numbers of 818, the difference is the $$ amount invested.
When people pay for the lowest priced kit and then find themselves over their heads it is easy and less painful to take that hit when selling it as a un-finished or project car, either way it’s not good for the brand

Jet

[fletch]

All,
I appreciate the discussion, but would respectfully request you take it to another thread if you'd like to continue it. Hopefully this thread will be of assistance to someone else in the future who is struggling with the body panels as I am. Thanks.
-Brian

[lance corsi]

Throw the roses but keep the thorns? Which thread are you talking about? With so many design deficiencies, opinions are bound to bubble up to the surface. Those who have purchased these kits have a right to express themselves. Or should we all just write our reviews of this product and post them? There is an underlying feeling of discontent and it keeps cropping up. So which thread should we address our concerns on?

[FFRWRX]

I can see all the sides of this discussion. Someone asks for help and it turns out to be a rant on the poor fit of the body panels and why isn't FF making the kind of product they are advertising? Remember when it needed no bodywork or paint? You don't sell as many 818's as Roadsters, so you can't put more time/money into it. You don't put more time/money into it so it isn't as good as it should be, so you don't sell many of them.

But, trying to keep to the original questions. I am trying not to do any fibreglass work or major modifications to get things to fit. The bottom line is that the doors and door windows are horrible. I honestly don't see how FF could be pleased enough with this stuff to produce and sell it. But I digress...again. If you need to trim fibreglass and even grind some metal off (bottom of the A-pillar, the roof attachment posts) then do it. Like most, I spent a huge amount of time getting to doors to fit and work, and you end up with bit of a compromise unless you want to do a huge amount of work. Moving the roof back and forth obviously affects the fit of the doors and the gap between the roof and the rear bumper, so everything is a compromise. Try and accept that you are not going to get production car gaps and get it all reasonable.

Rick

[lance corsi]

I found the motor mounts to be too low for proper engine oiling about 5 years ago when everyone was blowing motors due to oil starvation but I see that the problem still persists. I made mention of it on this forum but nobody at FFR seems to read our 818 related threads. Fortunately those who have followed since have been aware of this and have taken appropriate action but in reality, FFR owes every one of them a set of taller engine mounts to correct the problem. And possibly a rebate for having to correct a problem so basic as this. We need a thread just for this. All the problems listed in one thread. Maybe then something would get done.

[FFRWRX]

We need a thread just for this. All the problems listed in one thread. Maybe then something would get done.

No, David Hodgkins would just shut down the thread.

[Scott Meyer]

This is my 2nd Factory Five build, my 4th project built from a kit, and also my 4th total full car body work and paint job. My son who was the primary builder of our 818…walked away disinterested with the project when I started the body work…

I’ve got a full thread going on my 7 month body work and paint progress…and have complained to Art, Aymert and Jeff Kleiner about it…and we all laugh. It is what it is. F5 is not investing any more time into this product line or trying to improve the 818 kit. I’ll be surprised to see it continue seeing how hard it is to kind a reasonably priced “good donor”…

If you want a great looking body, you will have to spend A LOT of time to fix the moldings issues (voids,air pockets), gaps/fitment, and window/roof issues if you have a Coupe. The engine cover and rear trunk lid on the S models was terrible, I spent way too much time repairing and closing the gaps. But I wanted it to look more like my wife’s Porsche Cayman when it was finished than a cheap kit car.

[fletch]

For discussion of how you think the 818 kit could be improved, please see this thread.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...359#post474359

Thanks to those who have posted useful tips on getting doors and fenders aligned. They are greatly appreciated.

[lance corsi]

Fletch, you mentioned using balsa wood under your roof in the rear to help define the arch relative to the surrounding body panels. It’s a good idea but consider a fastener, strategically placed on either side which would accomplish the same outcome. I’m using Dzus fasteners on both sides and across the back. It might not look right tho if you’re trying to go the oem look.

[fletch]

The curve is substantial. I like your idea though. I may use some studs I can glass into place on the underside of the hardtop to pull it down in place, but I think forming it might be the better route. Actually, I might do both. With the passenger side down & in place I've got > 1.5" of gap on the driver side. I think the hardtop just sat too long and got really flat.

[Jetfuel]

If the top got flat from laying around have you tried to reshape it by using tie-straps???
Prop the center up and running a tie-strap under the car and over the top with some wood under the strap to push back the sides in into shape.
We use this method when putting new skins on airplanes where we need to match compound curves.

Jet

[FFRWRX]

From what I've seen, it looks like most/all of them have the curve at the rear of the roof too shallow to match with the surrounding body panels. I put in some small countersunk bolts to pull it down, and I'll fill the small depressions. I don't plan on taking the roof off, so this should work out OK. In theory, I could undo the nuts from the underside if I needed to. A better way is to bond studs to the underside and pull it down that way. Small corner straps added between the rear fender and the bumper would be added for the studs to go through.

Rick

[J R Jones]

If one does not reconfigure the part to fit, and pre-loads the part to conform, you are pitting one structure against another structure and the load has the potential to alter either structure. May the stronger structure win.
Future consequences are stress failures (cracks). Suspect here is the stability of the materials (FRP) and beam structure required to limit deformation.
I have read here that the Roadster Coupe roof has steel support structure that rusts and spreads the surrounding FRP. I expect the bond is lost as well. Design, and quality? Hard to correct in assembly.
jim