insurance (pretty much) not available for non-replica kit cars in Ontario

[FFRWRX]

I'm nearing the completion (hopefully) of my 818C. I've been calling around for insurance and basically nobody wants to insure kit cars any more.

Hagerty will not insure "Replicas of the 1963-67 Shelby Cobra".

Hagerty will not insure kit cars unless they are a replica of a classic car that is no longer in production such as some cars from the 1950's or older.

Every other insurance broker I called either use Hagerty, or use their rules, so they will not consider kit cars. I've tried Zehr Insurance which I've used in the past for my Cobra's, but they won't do kit cars now. Many places will keep insuring someone who has a car with them, but won't take on any new ones.

I've emailed Hagerty twice to ask them what difference it makes if a kit car is a replica or not. They don't seem to want to respond.

The only option might be a Facility Association. I haven't contacted them yet, but some insurance companies said to try them. I was told they might insure kit cars but the premium might be very high. I'm going to get my car registered first (should be this Friday) to get a VIN, then I'll try them.

Almost at the stage that it isn't worth building a kit car, or any home built car, in Ontario.

Rick

[David Williamson]

This is for Alberta so the insurance companies are different and it might not apply to Ontario. A number of us in Alberta have Intact insurance, if you have not tried them check with your broker. I have been through this game a few times as companies changed the rules and dropped Cobras and kit cars.
David W

[FFRWRX]

From what I've found out, facility insurance is provided through insurance brokers, and there are a few companies that provide the insurance. Intact seems to be one of them, through their brokers. They are connected with Nordic insurance somehow. I really don't quite understand all this, but someone in Ontario (who is selling their completed 818) has insurance through Nordic. Anyways, I contacted a broker that I found on the Intact website. I'll see what they come back with.

I did get my 818C registered today. The first "Service Ontario" place had no idea how to do that; they never do. The person that knew was off sick. I went to another office where they didn't know how to do it, but called head office that talked them through it. So at least now I have a VIN for the car.

Rick

[UpNorth]

Try https://www.leclercassurances.com/en/
They insured my Daytona coupe no later than this spring.
Good luck!

[FFRWRX]

Try https://www.leclercassurances.com/en/
They insured my Daytona coupe no later than this spring.
Good luck!

I appreciate that.....but...

1) They are in Quebec, and I'm not. Can't see from their website if they serve other provinces or not

2) The bigger issue; they use Hagerty. I don't think Hagerty have a problem with the Daytona Coupe, since it is a replica of a classic car.

I'll look into them, but not holding much hope.

[EK1965]

Hagarty insured my roadster this year, perhaps the same rationale as the coupe given that it was a production car

[FFRWRX]

Hagarty insured my roadster this year, perhaps the same rationale as the coupe given that it was a production car

Interesting, since they specifically say they don't do the Cobra roadster.

Hagerty did get back to me with their reason that it has to be a replica. But I'm not sure how much sense their reason is. "The reasoning for this requirement is due to Hagerty not having a program developed nor have received approval to insure modern kit cars like the Factory Five 818C. In order to properly cover a modern kit car, an established rate and program needs to be put in place."

Other insurance companies have gotten back to me to say that "facility insurance" is my only option. But the brokers that deal with the facility people haven't gotten back to me. I suppose the extra business for them isn't worth the hassle?

[Driver_WT]

I am in Nova Scotia. Facility insurance is my only option for my FFR Roadster. Total cost for a year is about $1200 but I take off liability and collision in winter, so it works out to about $700 per year. They will insure to a specific value, so it is not all bad. Facility insurance is the insurer of last resort, generally for drunk drivers and young drivers with lots of accidents.

[FFRWRX]

I am in Nova Scotia. Facility insurance is my only option for my FFR Roadster. Total cost for a year is about $1200 but I take off liability and collision in winter, so it works out to about $700 per year.

How did you go about getting the facility insurance? My regular insurance company told me they have no connection with the facility insurance group and can't help me at all with it. This was for Ontario. He did say that he thought maybe in other provinces the company did work with facility when required.

If I could get a rate even close to that I would be thrilled. I talked with Hagerty about their policy of a kit car having to be a replica of a classic car. The reason is that Hagerty is not an insurance company, more like a broker, so they don't set the rules. Once there is enough demand for a particular kit car they look into it. He said the 818 looked like a very cool car, but sorry, we can't help with that.

Finally got a response from a broker that deals with the facility market. The quote was ridiculously high. I asked about lowering the car value, increasing deductible, things like that to see if it will bring it down. I'll give more details when I hear back.

Rick

[David Williamson]

that's a real pain in the *** crazy that nobody will insure it. I pay about $350 per year for my Mkll that is valued at $45K
David W

[FFRWRX]

that's a real pain in the *** crazy that nobody will insure it. I pay about $350 per year for my Mkll that is valued at $45K
David W

Can't remember if I tried Intact or not, directly. You know what the facility quote came back at for a $45k evaluation? $5,100/yr.

[FFRWRX]

Intact does not insure kit cars in Ontario. Every province has its own rules. Looks like facility insurance for around $5k/yr is the only option in Ontario.

[AC Bill]

Is the issue the same with a home built car? What about a hot rod that has an original frame (VIN) number, any problems with them?
Curious as to what has thrown insurance companies off from accepting replicas?

[FFRWRX]

Is the issue the same with a home built car? What about a hot rod that has an original frame (VIN) number, any problems with them?
Curious as to what has thrown insurance companies off from accepting replicas?

I've only looked into insuring my "kit car", but I would assume Hagerty would be OK with a hot rod with the original VIN. That would make it a "classic car" and they do insure those. Also, insurance companies in other provinces don't have issues with kit cars, so probably wouldn't have an issue with a home built car. Ontario obviously has much tighter rules than other provinces. As for BC, no idea, but I would guess it would have tighter rules too.

Intact's exact wording for cars they do not insure in Ontario, is: "custom kit cars, replica, dune buggies and hot rods". Don't ask me for clarification of that, I don't know.

[FF33rod]

In BC, all cars have to get "basic" insurance from the province's insurance corp, ICBC. I also got my optional collision coverage from them too. There was no issue with "kit" car. In fact, as I recall, there was never any questions regarding if it was from a kit or not....

Steve

[FFRWRX]

Made a bunch more calls and the broker I found actually talked extensively with Hagerty. Hagerty apparently did what they could, but said no, they wouldn't insure it.

Talked with the FSRAO (basically the regulators for insurance in Ontario). I was told to contact the Insurance Brokers Association of Ontario to find a broker. I told them I already had a broker. They said the FSRAO might have brokers with more resources. I'm not holding any hope.

I talked with the Insurance Bureau of Canada. Competently useless organization. Told me that facility insurance seemed to be my only option in Ontario.

Rick

[AC Bill]

I'd start shopping insurance companies out side of Ontario. Would there be a reason a company in Alberta for example. couldn't still provide you with insurance, liability, and other coverages valid in Ontario? Coverage travels with you, so I don't see why not..

[AC Bill]

Did you see this thread from 3 years bacK

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...t-Car-Coverage

[FFRWRX]

Did you see this thread from 3 years bacK

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...t-Car-Coverage

Yes I did. "Zehr Insurance was able to help me out (Milverton Location)". I called them. They won't insure it.

[FFRWRX]

I'd start shopping insurance companies out side of Ontario. Would there be a reason a company in Alberta for example. couldn't still provide you with insurance, liability, and other coverages valid in Ontario? Coverage travels with you, so I don't see why not..

Interesting idea....but....You can see in this thread that Intact in Alberta insures kit cars, but Intact in Ontario doesn't. Cheaper facility insurance in other provinces does not apply to cars in Ontario. So I'm not sure if this would help. It would have to be an insurance company outside of Ontario that does not have an office in Ontario, otherwise I'll be told to talk to the Ontario office.

Did a quick search and found this:

"So, if you're moving to a different province, it's important to remember that auto insurance is regulated by the provincial governments, and these regulations are different in each one. It is mandatory to hold insurance from an insurance company in the province in which you reside."

[FFRWRX]

Called another insurance broker in Ontario. One that represents over 70 insurance companies. No luck. I was told that facility insurance is my only option in Ontario. In any other province it would not be a problem. "Ontario is the worst for car insurance and if you already have facility quote, then go with it as you won't find anything else". So, I suppose the search ends.

[lance corsi]

Rick, you could always move to the US. We’d be happy to have you.

[FFRWRX]

Appreciate the offer Lance, but no. But it does bring a question to mind.

I know a kit car cannot be brought from the US into Canada unless it was registered at least 15 years previous. At that point anything can be brought in and there are no emission tests to meet. How does it work for Canada to US?

[lance corsi]

I’ve never tried such but I’ve never heard of any problems in that regard. What about just liability coverage? Full coverage is optional here but liability is mandatory. Also, what about just keeping the car for track use only? Sorry to hear about all this.

[SunDude]

Appreciate the offer Lance, but no. But it does bring a question to mind.

I know a kit car cannot be brought from the US into Canada unless it was registered at least 15 years previous. At that point anything can be brought in and there are no emission tests to meet. How does it work for Canada to US?

The U.S. has a 25-year import prohibition on non-complying cars.

[valin]

I wish I would have seen this earlier.

Contact Bruce Cockwell at McDonagh Insurance. They used to insure my personal 818 when I had one, and the insurer was the Guarantee Company of North America. I had to move one of my other vehicles over as well, but was doable. Back in 2018, it was around $1300 per year
[email protected]
(519) 356-2216

[FFRWRX]

I did end up getting facility insurance. I got the appraisal to go as low as they would, $28k Canadian, as I wanted to decrease the insurance premium as much as possible. It is $4600 for the year, but I'll take it off for the winter (about 5 months?), so not horrible.

Oh, I did contact McDonagh Insurance and they said they would get back to me. They did a week later and said they are still looking, but nothing yet. Not holding much hope, but I'll let you know what they say. And the Guarantee Company of North America is now owned by Intact Insurance.....who do not insure kit cars in Ontario.

Rick

[FFRWRX]

Just to conclude this, for now anyways. McDonagh Insurance got back to me with questions now and then, then gave up. So insurance for "kit cars" is not available from them. Facility insurance is the only option in Ontario. If anyone finds insurance for a new build, please let me and others know here.

[kevinh]

Just to conclude this, for now anyways. McDonagh Insurance got back to me with questions now and then, then gave up. So insurance for "kit cars" is not available from them. Facility insurance is the only option in Ontario. If anyone finds insurance for a new build, please let me and others know here.

I'm just researching this before making a purchase as insurance is definitely a stumbling block to ownership of an 818.

Just wondering how much of a car is required to be original. Could this not be a modified Subaru Impreza, with the VIN and ownership carried over from the donor or is that likely to be considered fraud?

Kevin

[FFRWRX]

I'm just researching this before making a purchase as insurance is definitely a stumbling block to ownership of an 818.

Just wondering how much of a car is required to be original. Could this not be a modified Subaru Impreza, with the VIN and ownership carried over from the donor or is that likely to be considered fraud?

Kevin

I know with my regular insurance company (and I assume with most/all others) they ask if the vehicle has been modified. And soon as you say yes, they want to know all the details. Can't see this working at all.

[kevinh]

I know with my regular insurance company (and I assume with most/all others) they ask if the vehicle has been modified. And soon as you say yes, they want to know all the details. Can't see this working at all.

I've done a little homework. Doesn't matter how much of the original car is utilized if the frame isn't original - VIN belongs to the chassis.

For anyone else looking here's who won't insure it:

Hagerty
Co-operators
Intact
Vintage Auto Insurance

I'll update if I have any success.

Kevin

[kevinh]

In the end I was able to get facility insurance via Nordic. The cost was $1900/12 months for a 44 y/o with a clean driving record, 2 million liability, no collision coverage.

[FFRWRX]

My first thought was that it was a very low cost compared to what I have with Nordic. Then I saw the "no collision coverage". Do you know what the cost would be with collision coverage?

[valin]

Folks, acquiring insurance for most FFR models in Ontario is NOT a concern. Both Zehr and Haggarty will insure Replica kit cars without issue (providing you have a decent driving record). This includes the MKIV, Type 65, '33 Hotrod, and '35 Pickup models. For models that are not a replica, such as the GTM and 818, there are VERY few providers that will entertain writing a policy, and it will be costly.

[kevinh]

Agree. Both Rick and I are 818 owners, so the issue is not the "kit car" it is the fact that the 818 is a non-replica kit.

Most of the brokers I spoke to made it clear that they could get classic insurance for any Factory Five replica of a 15 year old (or older) vehicle.

It would be interesting to ask for the definition of a replica - my build was inspired by the 2008 Lotus Elise and I customized my kit as such.

[FFRWRX]

The first line in the first post of this thread says it is about an 818. Maybe people aren't reading that far?

You will also see in the 2nd line that Hagerty told me, twice on the phone, that they will not insure Factory Five Cobra replica's; other very high end builds maybe. I know that some people have them insured with Hagerty, so the caution is that things have changed in the insurance business in Canada and what was valid in the past may not be valid now. So please check on insurance to see what your options are and don't go by what is done in any other province or by what anyone else did in the past.

Thread title has been revised.

Rick