the coyote continues to bite... resolved! :)

[toadster]

your logs clearly show Bank 2 as lean - no fuel on start or 30 seconds in and then recovers fine.

your logs aren't logging enough data to provide any more info....

your cams are good as is timing.... your DI pressure looks ok - but I don't see fuel injector PW - the MAF and air load look good as well

Are you sure the MAF isn't in there backwards?

it definitely clears up though - are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak in front of the O2 on bank 2? it is basically showing LEAN the entire time but trims are good.... have you checked voltage at that O2?? it seems to be ok on start then checks out.

I would look really closely at the fuel injectors and flush out the fuel rail to make sure you don't have any debris that made it to the injectors - then swap them to the other side bank...

MAF is installed as prescribed in the build guide


here's a pic of mine and the 'spectre' logo is nearest the air filter when installed


the header is really solidly mounted, I don't forsee any exhaust leaks

from my prior video, I pulled the rail, and used compressed air - got flow from all the injectors, but I can try swapping side to side...

[JeffP]

Hey all,
Does anyone have a detailed pinout of the Fuse Box ? From what we can tell, fuses 1 thru 4 will get power once the engine is "started" (they do NOT have power with just the key on - something must "Enable" them). If anyone can tell me how they get powered, that would help.
The supply for fuses 1 thru 4 seems to be connected, which makes sense if it's the output from a relay. Which relay ?

Can someone please confirm with the key just in the "On" position, if you put a voltmeter between the wire that is common to all the injectors (i think it was a blue/gray color) and ground you have 0 volts.

We figured out the Fuse1 goes to the PDU harness pins 1,2,13, and one of the pins in the third connector (can't remember it's name).

It _Appears_ that Fuse 2 and Fuse 4 go to the larger connector with 4 wires (3 of the 4 pins on the outside have a heavier gauge wire, and one of the small center pins is used, and then there are a lot of unused small pins) that T's off the PDU harness right before the ECU. one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Coils, and one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Cam Solenoids, which I believe are fuse #2 and Fuse #4. Again, it someone could confirm that, it would be appreciated.

The remaining larger wire on that connector APPEARS to be the +12V for the injectors, but the weird thing is it is connected to the "Supply" side of Fuses 1-4. And we never found anything connected to the load side of Fuse #3 (at least before I left).

I think something is screwy with the +12V for the injectors. It makes no sense that (again - from the best I could tell) they are all connected to the Supply side of fuses 1 thru 4.

Anyway, that's my thoughts from the evening. Hopefully this helps give people ideas.

Sean

Not sure which one you're looking for but there are several pin outs at the end of this doc: https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...-6017-M50B.PDF

[toadster]

Not sure which one you're looking for but there are several pin outs at the end of this doc: https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...-6017-M50B.PDF

looking for the fuse panel schematic (I've asked Ford for this) - not in the doc you reference above

also, I've asked for the pinout for C146 (16 pin connector) we have 5 feeds from ECU, but only 4 leads in the engine side of the harness - maybe by design, but if we're missing a wire... well, you know

found a "free" site but not exactly for the control pack, but general Mustang...

https://cardiagn.com/2015-18-ford-mu...ring-diagrams/

[toadster]

tore apart the whole PDU fuse box last night to trace out lines and ensure we have good ground/12v sources - all comes out good... argh



we even put the Mustang intake on to see if it changed anything, same issue...



I re-grounded the fuse panel to a new frame ground, and even added a 4GA ground from starter bolt to frame, same issue



all data logs stored here if anyone wants to take a gander
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...qf?usp=sharing

pretty much taking this up to AED on Wednesday, praying for no rain...

[Fman]

Todd, you have definitely done your part trying to figure it out. I am confident AED will figure it out and get her on the road soon! and weather looks good this week!

[Railroad]

Hope the issue is not too obvious. I will feel more the failure.

[toadster]

Hope the issue is not too obvious. I will feel more the failure.

I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong…

[toadster]

long day today, was fortunate enough to borrow FMan's trailer again - what a great guy!! U-haul would have been closer, but they kept bumping my reservation all over the place so I opted to use Travis' trailer - it's posh

loaded up the car into the trailer and made the trip up to AED Tuning to meet Shaun - what a great guy!
thankful that THE premier coyote tuners on the West Coast is only 10 miles away!
He's been helpful the past few months with ideas, etc. but we were at our limits and needed some hands on.

After a few minutes of chatting, asking the usual questions - is your O2 sensor good, did you swap sensors? did you replace sensors? you have spark? the MAF is setup correctly, etc... I can write a book!
He got curious and said, start it up - he got his laptop and hooked up the SCT to visualize. He started by what we did, pulling the injector and noticed that the car would switch over to Direct Injection (DI) - once the car goes into DI mode, it doesn't switch back, so a few more restarts. He pulled bank2 O2 sensor - so all fuel readings were coming off bank 1 - still no fuel...

we told him how we tested the fuel injectors with 12v and they clicked, but he wanted to test further... he grabbed an injector tester, pretty sure it was an AUTOOL Fuel Injector Tester and Cleaner 12V

he tested the spare #8 injector that we replaced already - nothing
next he tested #5 - nothing
then he tested #6 - nothing
and lastly #7 - nothing

literally all 4 fuel injectors on bank2 were dead... but none of them showed this unless we used his test tool, the injectors don't throw codes as there's no logic they're simple circuits
we tested resistance, 12v test clicks, and even voltage during runtime - nothing showed up, unless we used the tool

he then tested bank #1
injectors #1, 2, 3 and #4 were all good - so literally we had a totally dead bank of injectors

#8 was already replaced, so I ordered 3 more that will show up Friday from O'Reilly auto, $120 to fix 6 months of headaches...

fingers crossed this journey is coming to a close...

Thanks to all who have been helping, ideating, and helping me keep my sanity

[Alan_C]

The odds are astronomical that you could get 4 bad injectors in one bank. Just like you stated "I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong." So you called it, insanely simple as in bad injectors, but massively wrong as in 4 of 4 in one bank.
Great to have finally closed in on the solution. Once the new injectors are in and working, time to dissect one of the bad ones to determine the actual mode of failure. I would bet on that somehow they are fouled up inside by something. So many had suggested there was something wrong in the fuel rail, looks like they had the right idea just not how the fuel rail was not working.

[Jeff Kleiner]

So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.

Jeff

[JohnK]

So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.

Jeff

I had the same exact thought. The odds of a failed injector from the factory are very small. The odds of four failed injectors on, not only the same engine, but the same bank are a virtual statistical impossibility.

[toadster]

I had the same exact thought. The odds of a failed injector from the factory are very small. The odds of four failed injectors on, not only the same engine, but the same bank are a virtual statistical impossibility.

1000% agree!!!

So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.
Jeff

we're not quite sure to be honest, Ford hasn't replied yet (not surprised given it's Thanksgiving)
will see what they say... Shaun at AED was shocked as well, never saw that before on a new crate engine

the original 4 injectors were dead, the new #8 is 'good' - at least from our testing...

The odds are astronomical that you could get 4 bad injectors in one bank. Just like you stated "I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong." So you called it, insanely simple as in bad injectors, but massively wrong as in 4 of 4 in one bank. Great to have finally closed in on the solution. Once the new injectors are in and working, time to dissect one of the bad ones to determine the actual mode of failure. I would bet on that somehow they are fouled up inside by something. So many had suggested there was something wrong in the fuel rail, looks like they had the right idea just not how the fuel rail was not working.

agreed - the odds of this happening are mind-blowing, hence why it's taken so long to get to this point
even swapping injectors side to side would have just had us seeing bank #1 not working, it would have proved out the failed injector follow test and maybe would have pushed me to get the injector tester...

PRAYING that tomorrow the 3 new injectors will remedy this once and for all!!

[Alan_C]

When I was still working as an engineer, we had a lab onsite that did failure analysis. As part of our design process we had to derive a MTBF for our systems. When we had a premature component failure we would have to go back and recalculate or show that the failure was outside the normal bell curve.
Your 4 failed injectors are beyond anything a manufacturer or end user would expect.

[toadster]

When I was still working as an engineer, we had a lab onsite that did failure analysis. As part of our design process we had to derive a MTBF for our systems. When we had a premature component failure we would have to go back and recalculate or show that the failure was outside the normal bell curve.
Your 4 failed injectors are beyond anything a manufacturer or end user would expect.

yeah, what really sucks is that Ford doesn't even fire the crate motors, they spin them on a test setup - no electrical, or fuel is tested just mechanical....

[Railroad]

On the old push rod 5.0 engines, I think I have read, do not put 12 volts to the injectors.
I cannot say more about whether this is true then or now. It seems alot of the stuff fed from the ECU was to be 5 volts.

[toadster]

On the old push rod 5.0 engines, I think I have read, do not put 12 volts to the injectors.
I cannot say more about whether this is true then or now. It seems a lot of the stuff fed from the ECU was to be 5 volts.

yeah it's odd for sure, we checked all 8 injectors with the 12v test

we even tested all the lines to each injector and they got about 12.3v with the engine off (battery voltage) and ~14 when the engine is running

[Alan_C]

Well once this issue is finally fixed and you can move on, I think you could write a small book on troubleshooting the Coyote. At least organize your notes and write up your troubleshooting methods and results. With so many hours invested in finding your issue, one hopes that this thread and any support documentation you choose to write can help those others who encounter the those strange problems that defy logic.

[spm97]

Well once this issue is finally fixed and you can move on, I think you could write a small book on troubleshooting the Coyote. At least organize your notes and write up your troubleshooting methods and results. With so many hours invested in finding your issue, one hopes that this thread and any support documentation you choose to write can help those others who encounter the those strange problems that defy logic.

I don't think it would be a book at this point. I think the technical term would be "Saga" or "Novel" :-) Maybe they will make a movie out of it.

J/K of course.

I was there Wed. when Shaun tested the injectors. The look on Todd's face when he found out all four injectors were bad - Priceless.
The cool thing was Shaun was able to explain exactly why unplugging one injector helped.

I agree - Todd needs to write up everything, including how to debug the harness pin by pin ....

[toadster]

[Mastertech5]

That's the type of tool I described earlier on in this saga. 4 bad injectors? Who would have thought! At least now you can move on. I'm glad you were able to get it sorted out, but I agree with what Jeff said. Why would 4 injectors fail together? Is there an under lying cause.
FWIW, the 5 volts that Railroad mentioned is reference voltage for sensors and is modified by the sensors and the resulting voltage is the signal that the ECM reads.

[J R Jones]

T, you can not get a valid temperature reading from a shiny surface like chrome or stainless with an infrared gun. The same surface black or even painted reads at a much higher number.
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

Todd,
Happy to hear that you've made progress but as someone who spent a decade and a half in the engineering test labs at GM doing both destructive and durability testing I have to say you really can't stick a fork in it until you can answer the question of "why?" As I said earlier, the likelihood of all 4 injectors just randomly being bad is a statistical impossibility. Something caused it, either electrically or mechanically (i.e. clogged, perhaps with debris left in the line when the hoses were made up). I'd sure want to do the forensic investigation to determine what that was.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Jryasko]

Glad to hear it is finally resolved. But in agreement with Jeff, really like to find out source of failure. 1 item that may give an answer. Did you flush the fuel line prior to connecting it to the rail ? Fuel comes in on that side of the engine and could possibly be source of contamination of the injectors. I had jumped the relay and flushed the line from tank to engine prior to initial startup. Is Ford standing behind the injectors ?

[toadster]

Glad to hear it is finally resolved. But in agreement with Jeff, really like to find out source of failure. 1 item that may give an answer. Did you flush the fuel line prior to connecting it to the rail ? Fuel comes in on that side of the engine and could possibly be source of contamination of the injectors. I had jumped the relay and flushed the line from tank to engine prior to initial startup. Is Ford standing behind the injectors ?

Todd,
Happy to hear that you've made progress but as someone who spent a decade and a half in the engineering test labs at GM doing both destructive and durability testing I have to say you really can't stick a fork in it until you can answer the question of "why?" As I said earlier, the likelihood of all 4 injectors just randomly being bad is a statistical impossibility. Something caused it, either electrically or mechanically (i.e. clogged, perhaps with debris left in the line when the hoses were made up). I'd sure want to do the forensic investigation to determine what that was.
Good luck!
Jeff

yes, regarding 'root cause' - not sure if we'll ever understand this one to be honest, I'll most likely ship the failed injectors back to Ford so they can investigate, not sure how much else can be tested
we checked voltage and resistance on each injector and all were identical across all eight

T, you can not get a valid temperature reading from a shiny surface like chrome or stainless with an infrared gun. The same surface black or even painted reads at a much higher number.
jim

Hi Jim - yes, I agree, the headers have Jet-Hot coating on them and they're matte finish (since they couldn't tumble them to a nice shine due to the catalytics) - they all get up to temp now where previously the driver side would be 95F all day long

That's the type of tool I described earlier on in this saga. 4 bad injectors? Who would have thought! At least now you can move on. I'm glad you were able to get it sorted out, but I agree with what Jeff said. Why would 4 injectors fail together? Is there an under lying cause.
FWIW, the 5 volts that Railroad mentioned is reference voltage for sensors and is modified by the sensors and the resulting voltage is the signal that the ECM reads.

agreed, a simple injector test is what solved the issue here, again - another $30 part from Amazon
we chased what seemed to be an electrical problem, everything pointed to O2 sensor readings - because the injectors won't throw a code

great example of why great tuners are "great" because, while they haven't seen it all (this is a perfect example) - they think out of the box, or a different box altogether

very appreciative of everyone's support on this, hindsight makes this look easy - but dang!

[spm97]

Now we all need to start pestering Todd to get the last few items done so he can get it off to paint !!!

[Alan_C]

I think the man needs some rest before we start pushing him toward the finish line. We wanted answers and finally got some. Let Todd catch his breath, then he can sprint to go karting and disassembly for paint. I know for me, taking the damn thing apart looked painful. Then I got a call from Da Bat that he had a gap in his schedule and was looking for a body to work on. I was at a stage where I could do it. He was at the house within days, roughed in the body gaps using HSRF, cut the panel gaps in before the HSRF fully cured. Roughed in the filler and loaded the body on to a buck mounted in the back of his pickup. Panels like doors, hood, and trunk lid were stowed in the back seat of the truck. About 6 months later, the body was painted and ready to be reunited with the go kart. The only downside of having Jeff out at the house was all the Bat dust left in the garage. I mean I thought I was vacuuming the garage daily for like a month, but worth it once I got to see the painted body, pics attached.

[toadster]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno:

The process to get the log is this:
With the car at operating temp,
start logging idle for 3-5 minutes,
then rev the RPM to 1500 RPM and hold 10-15 seconds,
then do the same for 2500 RPM and 3500 RPM.
Keep the engine running and proceed to drive it.
In 2nd or 3rd gear do a couple SLOW RPM climbs from 2500-5000 RPM.
DO NOT go WOT. Stay part throttle.
THEN, do ONE 2nd or 3rd gear 2500 to 7200 RPM WOT log.
Come to a stop.
Let it idle for 1-2 minutes.
Stop the log and save it. It'll be a long log but it'll give me good info.

anyone interested in buying my HP Tuners MPVI3 ? https://www.hptuners.com/mpvi3/

[edwardb]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno..

To be fair, a whole bunch of us have successfully navigated the Lund tuning process and had good results. Myself three times. And no, I don't work for them or get any commissions. If you didn't have the problems with your Coyote you likely would have ended the Lund process with a good running engine like the rest of us. And a lot of forum bandwidth saved. Which BTW, I'm still not getting the root cause of why four injectors failed. All on the same bank. Hopefully the root cause has been found and corrected. What I've learned in my multiple years is that electrical problems seldom heal themselves.

You're fortunate to have AEP close as an option. Arguably an actual dyno tune is perhaps better. If not at least a little less stressful. That WOP test on the street takes the right place and the right time. But I have yet to find a local tuner that will do the Coyote crate engines. Mustangs all day long. But mention the crate motor calibration and they're not interested.

[Its Bruce]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno:

The process to get the log is this:
With the car at operating temp,
start logging idle for 3-5 minutes,
then rev the RPM to 1500 RPM and hold 10-15 seconds,
then do the same for 2500 RPM and 3500 RPM.
Keep the engine running and proceed to drive it.
In 2nd or 3rd gear do a couple SLOW RPM climbs from 2500-5000 RPM.
DO NOT go WOT. Stay part throttle.
THEN, do ONE 2nd or 3rd gear 2500 to 7200 RPM WOT log.
Come to a stop.
Let it idle for 1-2 minutes.
Stop the log and save it. It'll be a long log but it'll give me good info.

anyone interested in buying my HP Tuners MPVI3 ? https://www.hptuners.com/mpvi3/

Do you think you'll be able to do those WOT pulls with traction? Please be safe.

[JeffP]

Do you think you'll be able to do those WOT pulls with traction? Please be safe.

Many of us have... definitely not for the faint of heart.

[toadster]

it didn't blow up! that's a good thing right?

[JohnK]

Awesome!

[Justin]

413hp, perfect for a OTB 'Yote!