Looking to buy a kit second hand, any issues with getting it titled in PA

[Axoid]

Looking to buy a MkIV Roadster from a seller in VA. Seller is the original owner and has it completely built but never titled it. I am in PA. Anyone have experience with buying a kit second-hand and getting a new title in Pennsylvania? Seller has all the original paperwork and will provide a bill of sale.

Thanks
Don

[craig6990]

Don,
I am located in PA as well and would love to hear from others about their experiences in the state! I am receiving my kit on either Thursday, Friday or Saturday of this week! Can't wait!!

Craig M

[edwardb]

Some states don't like not having your name on the Certificate of Origin. Even with a properly executed bill of sale. Like mine (Michigan) for example. It can't be reassigned like a title. That's the specific question you need to ask your title/licensing authorities.

[jts359]

Hi I am currently trying to get a title for a 1965 vintage car from PA and it has been a few months and no word yet , But 3 years ago I bought a FFR from VA with a VA title into NJ and had no issues , You guys use Notary's for titles in PA , I would question a couple of them thoroughly , The reason I say talk to a couple of them is because 1 said they couldn't get a title for my 1965 vintage car and another said no problem but it will take awhile. Ed

[TTimmy]

My recent experience in PA was quit straight forward. Get the enhanced inspection completed and take the paperwork to a title agency. They send it to Harrisburg and you get a VIN in six to eight weeks. The seller will need to sign/execute transfer on the back of the certificate of origin… similar to a car title. Might need to be notorized. It was quit simple compare to what I hear about in other states. PM me if you want to talk.

[edwardb]

...The seller will need to sign/execute transfer on the back of the certificate of origin… similar to a car title.

The Certificate of Origin form states the transfer sign-off blocks are for registered dealers only. Not the same as an actual vehicle title. Doesn't hurt to sign it I guess if the local authorities recognize it. Of if you're a dealer. But I'd sure check with them first.

[Axoid]

My recent experience in PA was quit straight forward. Get the enhanced inspection completed and take the paperwork to a title agency. They send it to Harrisburg and you get a VIN in six to eight weeks. The seller will need to sign/execute transfer on the back of the certificate of origin… similar to a car title. Might need to be notorized. It was quit simple compare to what I hear about in other states. PM me if you want to talk.

Thanks. So you bought a kit second hand and had it titled in PA as you outlined above? I read some horror stories from other states when the Certificate of Origin doesn't match the current owner, even when signed over and a Bill of Sale accompanies all the other paperwork. Just not sure if PA is a hassle like that.

[mrmustang]

Thanks. So you bought a kit second hand and had it titled in PA as you outlined above? I read some horror stories from other states when the Certificate of Origin doesn't match the current owner, even when signed over and a Bill of Sale accompanies all the other paperwork. Just not sure if PA is a hassle like that.

As the ex-PA resident, with more than a few Cobra replicas having gone through the system, I can tell you that PA is pretty straight forward when it comes to these kits, when bringing a car in not yet titled, you'll need the original MSO in the sellers name, along with a notarized bill of sale, it must be notarized or PA will not take it. Other than that, a typical MV-1 and a MV-426B will need to be filled out, and the VIN on the MSO, and the VIN on the chassis will be checked, some notary offices can do this for you if you trailer the car over to their office. Do not, and I repeat, do not try to reinvent the wheel here, the DMV/MVS in Harrisburg is well aware of these cars, and the tricks some people try to get the car "vintage" titled. Follow their rules and regulations, and you'll end up at the enhanced inspection station of your choice, and a few weeks later, a title for the car. Now, with that said, if you follow the simple rules laid out, you'll also have a car with an emissions waiver, which in itself is quite valuable these days in PA.

Hope you find this helpful.


Bill S.

[Axoid]

As the ex-PA resident, with more than a few Cobra replicas having gone through the system, I can tell you that PA is pretty straight forward when it comes to these kits, when bringing a car in not yet titled, you'll need the original MSO in the sellers name, along with a notarized bill of sale, it must be notarized or PA will not take it. Other than that, a typical MV-1 and a MV-426B will need to be filled out, and the VIN on the MSO, and the VIN on the chassis will be checked, some notary offices can do this for you if you trailer the car over to their office. Do not, and I repeat, do not try to reinvent the wheel here, the DMV/MVS in Harrisburg is well aware of these cars, and the tricks some people try to get the car "vintage" titled. Follow their rules and regulations, and you'll end up at the enhanced inspection station of your choice, and a few weeks later, a title for the car. Now, with that said, if you follow the simple rules laid out, you'll also have a car with an emissions waiver, which in itself is quite valuable these days in PA.

Hope you find this helpful.


Bill S.

Thank you very much, great info!

[craig6990]

Good morning All,
Can anyone tell me if PA requires wipers and if so, can a hand operated one suffice?
Thanks!!

CraigM

[jts359]

Hi This update on post #4. I picked the car yesterday which was a 1965 Studebaker and it took almost 5 months to get the title. Ed

[Axoid]

I did purchase the car, and am in-process of preparing for the enhanced inspection.

One of the items I need, on form MV-426B, is a single sheet explanation of how the car was built.

Other. A detailed explanation of how the vehicle is configured, constructed, and/or equipped is attached (on a separate
8 1/2” X 11” paper). I understand my Pennsylvania Certificate of Title will be branded as modified or specially constructed


Does anyone have a good example of this? I'm starting to write one, and basically referencing the build manual, but if there is already a good example that got through PENNDOT that would be great.

Thanks,
Don

[mrmustang]

I did purchase the car, and am in-process of preparing for the enhanced inspection.

One of the items I need, on form MV-426B, is a single sheet explanation of how the car was built.

Other. A detailed explanation of how the vehicle is configured, constructed, and/or equipped is attached (on a separate
8 1/2” X 11” paper). I understand my Pennsylvania Certificate of Title will be branded as modified or specially constructed


Does anyone have a good example of this? I'm starting to write one, and basically referencing the build manual, but if there is already a good example that got through PENNDOT that would be great.

Thanks,
Don

Is the car a custom build, or a fairly stock 1965 Studebaker. If stock, state so, and that it was assembly line built by Studebaker as a new car in 1965. If not, you need to list what is stock, and what is not. It will then be up to the state to decide to do a nationwide search of the original VIN and reissue a title using that, or adding their own state issued VIN to the firewall and using that.

It's not rocket science, so be general in nature, but list any major deviations from stock and be prepared to offer casting/date codes for anything major not original to the car.

Bill S.

[Axoid]

Is the car a custom build, or a fairly stock 1965 Studebaker. If stock, state so, and that it was assembly line built by Studebaker as a new car in 1965. If not, you need to list what is stock, and what is not. It will then be up to the state to decide to do a nationwide search of the original VIN and reissue a title using that, or adding their own state issued VIN to the firewall and using that.

It's not rocket science, so be general in nature, but list any major deviations from stock and be prepared to offer casting/date codes for anything major not original to the car.

Bill S.

It's a FFR MK IV, basically built to the assembly manual. So I was looking if anyone had an example document for that. I started one, but am not sure if I am adding too much or too little, or even not the correct, info.

Thanks
Don

[mrmustang]

It's a FFR MK IV, basically built to the assembly manual. So I was looking if anyone had an example document for that. I started one, but am not sure if I am adding too much or too little, or even not the correct, info.

Thanks
Don

e fo
Don,

You are going to need documentation for the engine and transmission, casting codes, and partial VIN's if you can find them. Rims, tires, again, receipts for these items, as the state will want to make certain the major components were not reported stolen. Otherwise, you can print off the parts list from FFR for your kit (or call them for it).....Did you get any paperwork documenting the build?


Bill S.

[Jacob McCrea]

Good morning All,
Can anyone tell me if PA requires wipers and if so, can a hand operated one suffice?
Thanks!!

CraigM

A windshield wiper is required. I have heard of hand-operated wipers on street rods licensed in PA. But I don't know if they are legal. I've never seen one on an FFR roadster or coupe.

I would speak with whoever will do your enhanced vehicle inspection before you bring it in for the initial inspection. For example, my inspector told me in advance he wanted to see heat shields on the side pipes of my coupe. I didn't see that requirement in the PA vehicle code. But he had inspected a lot of FFRs and there was no point in arguing with him, regardless of who was correct. I did what the man wanted and a few weeks later was legally on the road.

[Axoid]

e fo
Don,

You are going to need documentation for the engine and transmission, casting codes, and partial VIN's if you can find them. Rims, tires, again, receipts for these items, as the state will want to make certain the major components were not reported stolen. Otherwise, you can print off the parts list from FFR for your kit (or call them for it).....Did you get any paperwork documenting the build?


Bill S.

I have all the paperwork from the builder. I was more worried about creating a 1-page document that describes how the vehicle was constructed.

A windshield wiper is required. I have heard of hand-operated wipers on street rods licensed in PA. But I don't know if they are legal. I've never seen one on an FFR roadster or coupe.

I would speak with whoever will do your enhanced vehicle inspection before you bring it in for the initial inspection. For example, my inspector told me in advance he wanted to see heat shields on the side pipes of my coupe. I didn't see that requirement in the PA vehicle code. But he had inspected a lot of FFRs and there was no point in arguing with him, regardless of who was correct. I did what the man wanted and a few weeks later was legally on the road.

I stopped in to see my inspector, and he's done a few cobras before. He was speaking from his experience of these cars getting rejected in the past. So things I need that the car doesn't currently have
• Windshield Wipers: Got a set from this forum, where they are mailed around the country to those that need them next, so when I am done I will mail them to who else needs them
• Windshield Washer: He said it can be a mechanical pump, just needs to squirt water onto the windshield. I bought a little sump pump and will rig something up. Back-up plan is a $20 washer system from Amazon, but I'll need to drill holes in my body to mount the squirters - would rather avoid that
• Windshield Defroster: I bought a little dash-mounted one from Amazon, he said that would be fine.
• Side Pipes Heat Shield: He said everything outside the body needs wrapped. I checked the code and it does say that, so I have DEI wrap and fabric heat shield I will install
• Bumpers: I only have the quick jacks, nothing else. He said we'll submit as is, but it could be rejected. If so, we'll fashion a bumper to pass.

He said the issue is a PENNDOT inspector may want to come see the car in person, he said it doesn't happen often, but did happen to him recently. So he has to follow the book, no matter how dumb it is for a vehicle without a roof!

[Ashaw65]

Had not considered that. Thanks for sharing.

[Axoid]

Well, I had my enhanced inspection yesterday. It went smoothly, having stopped and talked with the inspector prior helped, there was no confusion and he looked over the things I was initially missing, as well as the "normal" safety stuff - like all the lights working, no suspension issues, brakes are good, solid framework, etc. He's familiar with the Factory Five Cars, and commented several times on the excellent build quality.

Took a little over an hour, then he took the 4 required pictures (front, back, left, right). He was swamped with other customers yesterday, and he said it takes him time to get everything entered into the computer, so I'll stop back this week to pick-up the paperwork then head to the tag/title place to continue the process.

For those interested, I went to Krisch Co. (Ron), 735 W Ingomar Rd, Pittsburgh, PA 15237.

[Axoid]

Alright, my title arrived in the mail today, 5 weeks after I submitted everything. And to my great surprise PA titled the car as a [YEAR] 1965 [MAKE] Factory Five! I can’t claim to have done anything special to get a 1965 year, but here’s what I (we) did. Ron filled out all his paperwork using everything from the FFR Certificate of Origin, including using 1965 as the year and Factory Five as the make. The F5R serial number was used as the proposed VIN. The tag place I used also filled out all the paperwork using the same info from the CoO.

One thing I did learn, and I passed this along to the tag place I used, is once you have all the completed paperwork from the tag place, instead of having them express mail it to their courier in Harrisburg to be hand delivered, take it to your local State Representative’s office. They will hand deliver it to PENNDOT, and will get better tracking info and can even request to expedite the process. I contacted my State Rep after the paperwork was filed, and that’s what they told me. They did keep checking on my titles progress anyway, but without the tracking info they would have got, it probably wasn’t as effective as it could have been (maybe I could have gotten everything a couple weeks sooner).

Now this is anecdotal but maybe the State Rep hounding PENNDOT each week had them just keep what was on the paperwork for the year and make and not go the typical Specialty Constructed route. Regardless, antique plates here I come.

[mrmustang]

Now this is anecdotal but maybe the State Rep hounding PENNDOT each week had them just keep what was on the paperwork for the year and make and not go the typical Specialty Constructed route. Regardless, antique plates here I come.

Just because they tell you they are tracking it, believe me, their offices and employees within their offices are so overworked, that more than likely they reached out in an email once, and that was it.

As for the rest, from vast experience (let's just say over 20 kit cars in PA and leave it at that), it's hit and miss, sometimes it comes in like yours, other times it does not. It really all depends on who's desk it lands on, and how in depth they check for similar VIN's in the system to duplicate with yours, and which one they pick.

Bill S.