Resurrecting my old car...am I insane?

[imtheonewhoknox]

OK, so go with me here for a moment - it'll be a mix of a walk down memory lane, and the ramblings of a lunatic, but I promise it'll make sense in the end.

When I was a kid, all I wanted was a Mustang. I had the posters, the Car & Drivers, Motortrends, literally everything with the car in it. I lied about my age to get a job at 14 so I could start saving up money for one, and in 2001 when I graduated High School, I bought a new Mustang. It was a base V6 coupe, which was all I could afford at the time - and I was the coolest...until the dude with the GT pulled up next to me. I ended up trading the car in as my life changed, but those Mustang dreams remained - I promised myself that if I ever had the opportunity to do it again, I would do it "the right way".

Fast forward 10 years an that opportunity was there. I took delivery of a new 2013 Mustang GT and over the next several years built her into my dream ride - my wife actually referred to her as "my mistress" because Id always be sneaking out to tinker, or drive, or both. I adored the car, pampered & babied her. But when we found out that we were expecting our first kid, I knew my days with the car were drawing to a close, trading it for a more responsible car. Broke my heart the day I traded her in, and always have kept track of her since trading her in.
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Then I got a Carfax alert - she was wrecked. A VIN search on Copart showed the extent of the damage...but the engine bay looks remarkably clean!
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It may be an absolutely insane idea - but I want to buy her back off Copart, and use the motor to keep her alive in my new Cobra...

Am I crazy? On a scale of one to "absolutely insane", how dumb is this dream to resurrect the engine and use it as a base for a new Mk4 build?

[Alan_C]

The level of insanity will be relative to what you have to pay for the car at auction. I have used Copart to buy two donor cars, one for a MK4 and one for a vintage Mustang. In both cases the donor approach worked well, but one has to take the emotion out of the purchase and only pull the trigger if the price makes sense. First, make sure the car has the Copart run drive guarantee. In the pictures, you will see one of the gauges with the current odometer reading. You can get a inspector to look at the car for you if you are not close to the lot.
In 2017, I bought a 2017 Mustang GT for $4700. With broker fees and shipping, about $6500 all in. The car had a California junk title on it, only good for parts as the car could not be retitled for street use. In 2011, I bought a 2004 Mach 1 38K miles as the donor for my MK4, paid $4400 for that car with about a $1000 for fees and shipping. The car was a great donor for the MK4 allowing me to use just about all the drivetrain parts I needed for the kit.
Ford Performance is now selling Gen 4 Coyote crate engines with a list price of $11500. Resellers will discount that some eventually. You will still need the controls pack, alternator, and a kit friendly oil pan for the car. If you can't buy your old car for $5K or less, it may not make sense. A 2013 Mustang would have the 1st Gen Coyote. A 2nd Gen or later would be a better engine as a lot of improvements went into the 2nd gen and later engines. I believe the 1st gen controls packs are no longer sold, so you would need to go aftermarket like from Holley. It can certainly be done, but make sure the purchase makes economic sense not just your desire to keep the memory of your old car alive.

[Jacob McCrea]

I like the idea a lot but share Alan's concerns. And having bought and disassembled a donor car - only to use very little of it in the end - I can say that getting rid of what you don't use will consume a massive amount of time, no matter how you do it.

That said, I'll bet the kid(s) would enjoy tearing the thing apart, and would learn a lot from the process.

[imtheonewhoknox]

The level of insanity will be relative to what you have to pay for the car at auction. I have used Copart to buy two donor cars, one for a MK4 and one for a vintage Mustang. In both cases the donor approach worked well, but one has to take the emotion out of the purchase and only pull the trigger if the price makes sense. First, make sure the car has the Copart run drive guarantee. In the pictures, you will see one of the gauges with the current odometer reading. You can get a inspector to look at the car for you if you are not close to the lot.
In 2017, I bought a 2017 Mustang GT for $4700. With broker fees and shipping, about $6500 all in. The car had a California junk title on it, only good for parts as the car could not be retitled for street use. In 2011, I bought a 2004 Mach 1 38K miles as the donor for my MK4, paid $4400 for that car with about a $1000 for fees and shipping. The car was a great donor for the MK4 allowing me to use just about all the drivetrain parts I needed for the kit.
Ford Performance is now selling Gen 4 Coyote crate engines with a list price of $11500. Resellers will discount that some eventually. You will still need the controls pack, alternator, and a kit friendly oil pan for the car. If you can't buy your old car for $5K or less, it may not make sense. A 2013 Mustang would have the 1st Gen Coyote. A 2nd Gen or later would be a better engine as a lot of improvements went into the 2nd gen and later engines. I believe the 1st gen controls packs are no longer sold, so you would need to go aftermarket like from Holley. It can certainly be done, but make sure the purchase makes economic sense not just your desire to keep the memory of your old car alive.

I like the idea a lot but share Alan's concerns. And having bought and disassembled a donor car - only to use very little of it in the end - I can say that getting rid of what you don't use will consume a massive amount of time, no matter how you do it.

That said, I'll bet the kid(s) would enjoy tearing the thing apart, and would learn a lot from the process.

I havent considered many of the points you made, and the pricepoint makes a lot of sense. My issue is that the crate Coyote (Gen 4x) is $11500, but that still requires the control pack, accessories, transmission, oil pan, etc....correct? Of course there's a bit of nostalgia involved, but getting the motor at what is essentially a 50% discount does create an intriguing prospect.

Looking at all of the photos on Copart, it seems that the majority of the damage is to the rear and sides, with little to no damage from the a-pillars forward. Says on the site it runs & drives, and the digital cluster shows ~90,500mi.

I understand the G2+ Coyotes are much better engines with significant improvements, as well. I guess it all comes down to cost and how inexpensively I could get my hands on the car. $3k seems like a decent bid (if/when bids open)...plus a LOT of elbow grease. I have never dealt with Copart - any advice you have would be extremely helpful.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm assuming that it's a manual transmission which is the Getrag MT82. They were know to have reliability issues (which ultimately led to a class action lawsuit by owners against Ford). While the MT82 can be and has been used in the Mk4 there are some challenges that make it less than ideal; the shifter is too far rearward and has to be relocated. The kit to do this runs about $900 from Formacars. The trans does not incorporate a slip joint on the output but instead uses a funky flexible Guibo joint. To use it in the roadster this has to be changed to a stationary companion flange and then requires a custom driveshaft with a slip joint to the tune of another several hundred bucks. Finally the MT82 gear ratios are not optimal for our cars; the super low 3.66:1 first gear is great for pulling stumps out in the back 40 with a one ton pickup or for getting an overweight Mustang rolling but in a 2200 pound roadster it'll have you reaching for second gear (which is a big ratio jump) before you drive across an intersection. Given all of those I suggest that you don't put too much value on it and consider that your money would be better spent on going with a TKX instead. Of course that's just one guy's opinion

Jeff

[edwardb]

Don't underestimate Alan_C's comments about using a Gen 1 Coyote as a crate motor. Using the donor car's electronics (PCM, etc.) is possible but lots of horror stories on here about those that have tried unsuccessfully. Completely depends on your expertise. A control pack from Ford Performance is their answer to using the Coyotes as crate motors. Works great (I've done it twice, Gen 2 and Gen 3) but also as Alan_C said, the Gen 1 control pack isn't around any more. There were also some issues with the Gen 1 control pack with stalling at low RPM. Ford patched it with an add-on speed control device but those too are apparently not around any more. Gen 2 and up control packs were significantly upgraded along with the Coyote engine itself. Aftermarket solutions are out there. I don't have personal experience, but some of them while more open to DIY tuning didn't have all the features of the Ford setup, e.g. cam phasers. That might have changed. I haven't followed for some time. I'd do a lot more homework before taking the plunge. Bottom line IMO, while half off might be attractive, you can also find similar discounts in salvage with later version Coyotes. I know, doesn't have the sentimental value. But that doesn't pay the bills. Good luck whatever you decide.

[imtheonewhoknox]

I'm assuming that it's a manual transmission which is the Getrag MT82. They were know to have reliability issues (which ultimately led to a class action lawsuit by owners against Ford). While the MT82 can be and has been used in the Mk4 there are some challenges that make it less than ideal; the shifter is too far rearward and has to be relocated. The kit to do this runs about $900 from Formacars. The trans does not incorporate a slip joint on the output but instead uses a funky flexible Guibo joint. To use it in the roadster this has to be changed to a stationary companion flange and then requires a custom driveshaft with a slip joint to the tune of another several hundred bucks. Finally the MT82 gear ratios are not optimal for our cars; the super low 3.66:1 first gear is great for pulling stumps out in the back 40 with a one ton pickup or for getting an overweight Mustang rolling but in a 2200 pound roadster it'll have you reaching for second gear (which is a big ratio jump) before you drive across an intersection. Given all of those I suggest that you don't put too much value on it and consider that your money would be better spent on going with a TKX instead. Of course that's just one guy's opinion

Jeff

I was planning on just using the engine and going with a TKX for the reasons you mentioned. Appreciate the insight & advice, especially coming from an OG of the forums!

[Alan_C]

Since I have experience with Copart, here is what I know. In 2011, I was able to buy a car in CA without a broker. For the most part, that is no longer true. The laws have changed significantly in most states, especially CA. A membership with a reputable broker will be your best bet today as it also provides access to the Copart website. Essentially, the broker represents you and has the licenses required to buy salvage and junk cars across the US. If serious, PM me and I will provide the contact information for my broker. His agency represented me in 2017 and I am again a member as I am looking for a donor truck to provide a V8 for my wife's truck.
Under no circumstances should you deal with AutoBidMaster as my dealings with them in 2011 went badly and I will leave it at that.
Used cars are hot now as the new cars prices have eliminated my buyers. This appears to be true all over the world as, what I thought was a reasonable bid for a 12 year old truck. A monster bid came in some $1200 beyond reasonable. Also recognize that shipping a car cross country is now extremely expensive. Low bids to ship from Michigan to Arizona were on the order of $1300 going through U-ship. When buying a donor, consider the total cost of the purchase including Copart, broker, and transportation fees. There should be no tax as with cars it is s road use tax, not a sales tax in most states.
Pre and post pandemic prices are very different for salvage vehicles just as with everything else. If anyone has specific questions, I will respond to PM requests. Buying at auction can save money but there is always some risk involved. The price you pay has to consider that risk as the engine you get may need more than just cleanup before use. I have had exceptionally good luck so far and I am thankful for that.

[imtheonewhoknox]

Don't underestimate Alan_C's comments about using a Gen 1 Coyote as a crate motor. Using the donor car's electronics (PCM, etc.) is possible but lots of horror stories on here about those that have tried unsuccessfully. Completely depends on your expertise. A control pack from Ford Performance is their answer to using the Coyotes as crate motors. Works great (I've done it twice, Gen 2 and Gen 3) but also as Alan_C said, the Gen 1 control pack isn't around any more. There were also some issues with the Gen 1 control pack with stalling at low RPM. Ford patched it with an add-on speed control device but those too are apparently not around any more. Gen 2 and up control packs were significantly upgraded along with the Coyote engine itself. Aftermarket solutions are out there. I don't have personal experience, but some of them while more open to DIY tuning didn't have all the features of the Ford setup, e.g. cam phasers. That might have changed. I haven't followed for some time. I'd do a lot more homework before taking the plunge. Bottom line IMO, while half off might be attractive, you can also find similar discounts in salvage with later version Coyotes. I know, doesn't have the sentimental value. But that doesn't pay the bills. Good luck whatever you decide.

Holy s#!t - a post that Jeff and edwardb respond to...literally honored you would both take time to give feedback. When you guys talk, I'll listen! I guess the rose-colored glasses sometimes get a little too rosy. Hate to see my old girl in that shape, its heartbreaking. Fingers crossed the G4x crates (or a pull-out earlier Gen motor) is a better fit for my future. Honestly appreciate the reality check from you!

[imtheonewhoknox]

Since I have experience with Copart, here is what I know. In 2011, I was able to buy a car in CA without a broker. For the most part, that is no longer true. The laws have changed significantly in most states, especially CA. A membership with a reputable broker will be your best bet today as it also provides access to the Copart website. Essentially, the broker represents you and has the licenses required to buy salvage and junk cars across the US. If serious, PM me and I will provide the contact information for my broker. His agency represented me in 2017 and I am again a member as I am looking for a donor truck to provide a V8 for my wife's truck.
Under no circumstances should you deal with AutoBidMaster as my dealings with them in 2011 went badly and I will leave it at that.
Used cars are hot now as the new cars prices have eliminated my buyers. This appears to be true all over the world as, what I thought was a reasonable bid for a 12 year old truck. A monster bid came in some $1200 beyond reasonable. Also recognize that shipping a car cross country is now extremely expensive. Low bids to ship from Michigan to Arizona were on the order of $1300 going through U-ship. When buying a donor, consider the total cost of the purchase including Copart, broker, and transportation fees. There should be no tax as with cars it is s road use tax, not a sales tax in most states.
Pre and post pandemic prices are very different for salvage vehicles just as with everything else. If anyone has specific questions, I will respond to PM requests. Buying at auction can save money but there is always some risk involved. The price you pay has to consider that risk as the engine you get may need more than just cleanup before use. I have had exceptionally good luck so far and I am thankful for that.

Thanks for the heads-up, Alan! This entire thread has been eye-opening for me, to say the least. In the end, I guess its better to just look at the big picture, and not get hung up trying to pinch a few pennies for the sake of nostalgia.

[Alan_C]

If you really want to resurrect your old girl, here is another thought. If you can buy the car at auction for a few thousand, do it. Then go out and buy a car at auction that is in better condition, that is no accident damage. Then take the best of the two and enjoy the result. While this does not provide and engine for the Factory Five, it would make you feel better about keeping the good bits from your old car running into the sunset. You will still need an engine for your Factory Five, but those can be found. Not hard to find the engines, but difficult to find a good engine at a bargain price. This will take knowledge and patience. Bought wisely, you may find that you can piece together one good Mustang and even possibly make a bit of green in the process. Anyway giving the old girl new life would make you happier for a while. With all the newer Gen3 enginned Mustangs out there, you may find that a low mileage Gen 2 could be a good solution. They are not out there all the time, but every once in a while someone's baby gets t-boned and totaled. There are Mustang specific dismantlers that will sell an engine, engine and transmission, and so on. An engine on a pallet can be a good solution. If the engine has been cared for, 50K miles is just broken in. Well cared for modular engines can live well past 200K miles.
Before buying anything, like a Gen 2, make sure the controls pack or Holley solution will work for you. Like the Gen 1, eventually Ford Performance will stop making the controls pack and that could have already happened. I have all my Gen 2 components on the shelf waiting for my car to be finished next year. While the Gen 3 and Gen 4 crates, I am sure I will be happy with my Gen 2 with the 6R80 in my 70 Mustang restomod. I talked about getting lucky in buying my donors, the 2017 GT appeared to only be 6 months old and with 2350 miles since it rolled off the assembly line. Bargains can be found and sometimes they just find us.

[imtheonewhoknox]

If you really want to resurrect your old girl, here is another thought. If you can buy the car at auction for a few thousand, do it. Then go out and buy a car at auction that is in better condition, that is no accident damage. Then take the best of the two and enjoy the result. While this does not provide and engine for the Factory Five, it would make you feel better about keeping the good bits from your old car running into the sunset. You will still need an engine for your Factory Five, but those can be found. Not hard to find the engines, but difficult to find a good engine at a bargain price. This will take knowledge and patience. Bought wisely, you may find that you can piece together one good Mustang and even possibly make a bit of green in the process. Anyway giving the old girl new life would make you happier for a while. With all the newer Gen3 enginned Mustangs out there, you may find that a low mileage Gen 2 could be a good solution. They are not out there all the time, but every once in a while someone's baby gets t-boned and totaled. There are Mustang specific dismantlers that will sell an engine, engine and transmission, and so on. An engine on a pallet can be a good solution. If the engine has been cared for, 50K miles is just broken in. Well cared for modular engines can live well past 200K miles.
Before buying anything, like a Gen 2, make sure the controls pack or Holley solution will work for you. Like the Gen 1, eventually Ford Performance will stop making the controls pack and that could have already happened. I have all my Gen 2 components on the shelf waiting for my car to be finished next year. While the Gen 3 and Gen 4 crates, I am sure I will be happy with my Gen 2 with the 6R80 in my 70 Mustang restomod. I talked about getting lucky in buying my donors, the 2017 GT appeared to only be 6 months old and with 2350 miles since it rolled off the assembly line. Bargains can be found and sometimes they just find us.

Also a thought!

[Lidodrip]

I had a good experience buying a Gen 2 Coyote from a salvage yard. It was a 2017 with 15k miles from a car that had no front end damage. I used www.car-part.com to find the engine. With shipping, it ended up being about half the price of a new engine. Still had to do the usual FFR modifications and add the Ford control pack and TKX. Engine has run great from the first start and I would certainly consider going this route again.

James