Angelina: Build Story of my 4-wheeled Motorcycle

[danmas]

Hey Y'All,

After successfully adding those specialized nut-serts to my access panel for the traditional hand-brake cut-out, I decided to apply the same treatment to the Driver's side inner-top panel that has an access panel for the master cylinders.

Here's a picture of the top side (with rubber washers under stainless button-head fasteners Attachment 200505 ...and here's the under side Attachment 200506

Happy Building!

Craig C

I am going to do this as well. I simply don’t see any other way to get access once the body is on. Thanks for the write up.

[cc2Arider]

Hi Dan,

I only used the specialized nut-serts because the overlap of the two panels was less than what I expect to use for the more traditional nut-serts. Now that I feel more comfortable making my own simple panels, I would do it differently than I did before by making a new access panel with more overlap -- this would permit me to drill the holes with more material on the edges of the access opening.

Good Luck !

Craig C

[AndrewIdaho]

I only used the specialized nut-serts because the overlap of the two panels was less than what I expect to use for the more traditional nut-serts.

Craig
Newbie question - what is a specialized nut-sert?
Thanks, Andrew

[cc2Arider]

Hi Andrew,

This is my own definition

The typical nut-serts (or riv-nuts) deform like a blind-pull rivet, whereas these "specialized" ones described previously are machined stainless and instead deform the mounting hole just a little because it is a slight interference fit if you drill properly. The severity of deformation is limited to forming the grooves into the hole from the "knurled" surface of the nut-sert. This helps to limit "twist-out"...

The ones from McMaster-Carr have a data sheet that identifies the proper drill size to use

I chose these simply because they were small enough diameter and had decent "twist-out" specs. Truth be told, the FFR Aluminum panels are actually on the thin side to use these properly, but I was OK with that because I added Silicone on the back-side upon assembly anyway, and this provided me some comfort that they would be retained onto the panel following any panel disassembly task.

Good Luck!

Craig C

[AndrewIdaho]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the clarification and the additional insight to your assembly technique. I have follow-up question. Do you use the McMaster-Carr Stainless Steel Twist-Resistant Rivet Nuts or the Stainless Steel Low-Profile Rivet Nuts (or both depending on application)?

Keep up the great work on the build. I enjoy following along.

Best Regards, Andrew

[cc2Arider]

Hi Andrew,

I have used different types...https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/3661/94648A330 and https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/3780/98560A572 as well as well-nuts (rubber with brass inserts) and the "usual" riv-nuts. I even used these https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/130/3524/94887A112

The factors can vary...sometimes my whim at the time, or serious considerations of long-term viability or maintenance, or to mitigate my own mistakes

Good Luck!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

This weekend I decided to knock out a project that I was dreading: removal of my F-panels to fit "Fat Tire" panels in their place. You see, I decided last winter to stuff the widest tire that would fit onto the FFR 18" rims, and when I tested for tire rub lock-to-lock, I noticed tire contact with the F-panels...

My short-term solution was to add rack limiters, and those did the job. I believed a more permanent solution might still be needed, so several months back I ordered a set of "Fat Tire" panels from a preferred vendor. My thought was that I might even be able to remove my "short term fix" rack limiters if I could get those new panels installed. Well, the time to do that is sooner rather than later, but I'd like to share my observations in case any of you want to retrofit these on your Roadsters

First up: how to make room behind the upper a-arm suspension so that I could get to my rivets and drill them out. With a combination of jack stands and a lawnmower/motorcycle jack, I could keep the wheel and the rest of the front suspension intact and only remove the A arm from the frame. So far, so good disconnecting upper a arm without disassembling.jpg

Next: carefully drilling out the rivets and extracting the F-panel without damaging it. It will be more clear why I didn't want to damage it in the next paragraph Success! f panel removed without damage.jpg Truth be told, my original silicone application seemed suspect (perhaps cured in the tube before using it?), and these came out pretty easy...

Here's where careful extraction pays dividends: You can overlay the old panel with the new one to exactly replicate the rivet holes into the new panels old f panel overlayed onto fat tire panel.jpg Notice that in addition to the extra origami shape, the "Fat tire" panels are also 2.25" longer.

Careful measuring, alignment, clamping, and drilling is next. This is the halfway point to make sure the sides are evenly referenced to each other fat tire panel fitment halfway status.jpg

Here's the results: both fat tire panels roughed in.jpg They seem to align to each other well both fat tire panels aligned to each other well.jpg

I just have to file the edges a little more and then send off to powder coat...but I think I'll wait to do that until after rough fitment of the body (now that I know I can rivet these at any time without disrupting my front suspension). Ohhhh...I almost forgot one final pointer: I got non-locking 1/2-20 fine pitch nuts so I can assemble/disassemble the upper A-arm bracket to the frame without worry of losing the locking effectiveness for the original lock nuts I'll re-install the lock-nuts when I'm doing final assembly...

Happy Building!

Craig C

[gbranham]

Looks nice, but seems like a lot of work and little reward for ~20mm in tread width. Educate me! I'm curious.

[cc2Arider]

I agree about the return on investment It wasn't that much though, in the larger build picture perspective...

Mostly, I'm trying to look "down the road" at what this experience will be like in 5, 10, 20 yrs...and from reading other Builder's experiences, they tend to "tinker" for a few more years after build completion. I like having options -- I preach it to my Team at work. So, this represented an option to tackle a possible improvement that I might make in a few yrs. For me, I was concerned I wouldn't be able to do it effectively with the body mounted and finished.

I'm also trying to "hone my craft", and this was a good little project to reinforce some of the typical skills needed for these builds

Which reminds me: I'm curious about your powertrain decision...especially since you have the perspective of completing a build many years ago and building another. What were your motivations to go from a Coyote back to a Windsor engine?

Thanks for the feedback!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Sorry...I just re-read your question...and maybe I didn't answer why I chose the tires? Mostly just to look cool Maybe a slight performance advantage...but that's pure conjecture!

Craig C

PS: also, I stubbornly wanted to use them since I paid for them

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

I didn't get much done on my build this weekend due to long-neglected outside chores

One thing I did get done was to re-install the body to check for the fitment of various parts. Here's a picture body test fit1.jpg.

One thing that really surprised me was that my aluminum trunk side panels really need to flex/bend just to get the lower tail-end of the body down into place. I had the body as rearward as the front quickjack frame would allow and as per previous guidance, the front part of the body gets lowered into place and then the rear part of the body is pivoted down Is this normal? I'll also ask on the main forum...

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

I've got more pictorial details of the body test fitment. Since the body seemed to fit reasonably well, I decided to check out how the rollbar holes were aligned. The holes need a little adjustment, but didn't seem too far out, nor moved the body appreciably during the installation of the bars. Here's some pictures for motivation

body test fit rear with roll bars.jpg body test fit rear 3-4 with roll bars.jpg body test fit side with roll bars.jpg body test fit front 3-4 with roll bars.jpg body test fit front with roll bars.jpg

More good news: Jeff's "mod" works great! I just snugged these up and it worked wonders for the trunk fitment

Kleiner mod 1.jpg Kleiner mod 2.jpg

Now the details. I know from previous guidance that a critical dimension is the door openings in relation to the striker post plate on the frame. Here's my initial fore-aft dimension
door opening longitudinal gap to striker post frame.jpg I vaguely recall Jeff recommending a 1/4" measurement. Is this correct? It seems that the thickness of the flange is about that thick...

Then I took pictures of the side-to-side offset in the same area. The Passenger-side had no relative gap passenger side no-gap to striker post frame.jpg but the Driver's side had a small gap, and should be noted that I could move it in and out relatively easily. I suspect this will come into play when I try to fit the doors later ...driver's side jam gap to striker post frame.jpg

That's all for now...more later!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

Continuing on this line of temporary body fitment updates, we come to the motivation for this endeavor: Since I decided to try the "Fat Tire" F-panels and noticed that the rearward flange moved back about 2", I needed to see how it would impact the front splashguard panels. Short answer, they don't fit that great, but to be honest, I didn't check the fitment with the standard F-panels...so there's that

Setup: I located the body up/down by using the front quick jack bolts and collars, then used some plastic shimming of about 3/4" on top of the curved top hood opening tubes. I also located the rear of the body on 1/2" all-thread (Kleiner Mod). No interior Al panels were installed (and no bulb seal was therefore used, either)...

Here's some pictures. First: Underhood looking out towards the Driver's side L F inside view of splashguard1.jpg Underhood looking out towards the Passenger side R F inside view of splashguard1.jpg

Notice the gaps... Does the panel with bulb seal get wedged up against the side (with the panel flex keeping it in contact with the body), or is is supposed to fit like the top-part (nearly 90 deg joint)?

Here's some other views. Inside the engine bay looking down to each side (sidepipe view): Driver L F inside view of splashguard2.jpg Passenger R F inside view of splashguard2.jpg

I think the gap to the sidepipe opening is good. Does this look right?

Here's the wheelwell views: Driver L F view of splashguard.jpg Passenger R F view of splashguard.jpg

I think these look OK, too. Can someone confirm that this is about right, please?

I think I've got some serious massaging to do on those panels. I might decide to mock-up some chip-board or poster-board to see how far off the stock panels are...

Meanwhile, here's a couple of fun pictures. Here's the clearance to my hydraulic reservoirs I was so worried about...no sweat! underhood height to reservoir tops.jpg

Lastly, underhood view looking forward (engine view) underhood view looking forward.jpg

Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

I continued on my rough fitment of the body and splash panels. This weekend, it was the rear wheelwell panels...

I just didn't like how the rear inside fender panels (outside trunk panels) fit right at the short vertical 3/4" frame tube. I obsessed about this because the Build Manual instructs us to locate the rear splash panels on this tube. Here's why I took so long to prep these panels. Notice the non-parallel gap!
Driver's side driver's side trunk panel gap to frame tube.jpg Passenger side passenger side trunk panel gap to frame tube.jpg

I just couldn't have that, so I simply decided to locate the rear splash panels slightly rearward from those frame tubes. This made my decision to shim the side panels much easier. I only need 1 small shim per side to mount the side panels securely and on-plane with the different triangulated tubes. This also will allow me to fasten the splash panels thru 2 frame tubes at the top-most and bottom-most dimensions. These will be the strength mounting points. The rest will simply fasten the splashpanel flange to the trunk side panels every 2".

With that decided, I could finally mark out, drill, cleco, etc the side panels, and aesthetically leave room for the fasteners not yet installed for the splash panel flanges. I'm pleased with the outcome so far.

Here's some pictures with measurements:
passenger side: passenger side trunk panel with splash panel mockup.jpg passenger side rear splashpanel to tire.jpg Driver's side driver's side trunk panel with splashpanel mockup.jpg driver's side rear splashpanel to tire.jpg

The Driver's side splashpanel took some persuading to get the flange bend just right and match the distance to the tire from the Passenger side, and then I also had to bend the fuel tank flange on the Driver's side (this is mentioned in the Build Manual). Here's a picture of the new clearance to the fuel tank flange
fuel tank driver's side flange bent up for clearance to splashpanel.jpg

Whew! It's hot ang muggy and I'm ready for a cold one ... Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

It's pleasant weather here and finally got to some outside chores, so not a lot of Roadster build progress

I did spend some time thinking about how to choose the location of the dash panel. I know...the Build Manual tells us to locate the dash panel top edge 3/16" above the ends of the curved dash tube. Since this dimension can change depending on the side-to-side location, I took my time to locate it. I still didn't get it perfect, but I heard from the experienced builders to not expect too much precision for the panel and body measurements...

The one thing I couldn't rely on was the steering stem hole since I modified the stem alignment a little in order to fit my RT tribute steering shaft support bracket. So that left me to choose what the "critical" side-to-side measurement reference was. I chose the bottom bent flange as my reference. Maybe this choice could have been different?

Anyway, half of the width got me a centerline, and I aligned it with the centerline of the horizontal 2" cross tube, then checked for level on the bottom flange. Pretty close. I think I'm a 1/16" off. I think that's good enough, but I'd welcome any feedback! Here's the "big" picture
dash panel mockup 1.jpg

Next came some measurements against the curved dash tube, just to confirm I'm in the right location. I couldn't get the height measurements to agree side-to-side, so I'm looking for some feedback. Did I make the right decision to confirm "level" first? Then confirm "center"?

Does the height from the top of the panel to the top of the curved dash tube need to be per the Build Manual, or "good enough"?

Here's my dimensions against the top of the curved tube (with the panel "level"):
minimum Driver's side = 3/16" dash panel mockup 3-16 min to driver's curved tube.jpg

maximum height along the Driver's side to the curved tube = 7/16" dash panel mockup 7-16 max height to driver's curved tube.jpg

height at the center = 4/16" dash panel mockup 4-16 to center curved tube.jpg

maximum height along the passenger side to the curved top tube is about 9/16" dash panel mockup 9-16 max height to passenger curved tube.jpg

minimum Passenger side = 2/16" dash panel mockup 2-16 min to passenger curved tube.jpg

Once again, I'd appreciate some feedback -- let me know if I'm losing the forest for the trees...

Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

Not a lot of build progress again this week, but I did manage to locate, drill, and cleco the Passenger side firewall extension panel. Here's a picture: passenger firewall extension panel.jpg

Next, I decided to deviate from the Build Manual again and make some experimental panels. I can't get the rear of the body mounted without really bending the rear outside trunk panels. I think after powder-coating them and adding the bulb-seal, it's not going to get any easier I also don't want to trim back the rear under body "roll-pan" because I like how it tucks neat as-is (with the raw cuts from FFR). I'd rather proceed slowly and with confidence for any trimming (either the body or the Al panels).

Sooo...here's my experiment concept. I'm going to make some extra panels just for the rear of the outside trunk panels. Then, I'll use them to locate the body and determine what exactly needs trimming If my plan works out like I want, I can easily install (or remove) these panels while the body is "on". If the concept is sound, then I'll proceed to locate the splash guards, and then that will determine where I bend my new panels to accommodate the splash panels. Then I can cut the original outside trunk panels such that it meets the new panels and then I can fasten the splash panels to both trunk panels for strength. It'll be more clear to show when I've bent my new panels

The experimental panels are sourced from McMaster-Carr (although you could get them from any reputable metal supply outlet). They are 1'x2'x0.040" 6061-T6 Al.

Anyway, here's some pictures of the panel duplication process. Driver's side: confirming layout driver's outside trunk extension panel1.jpg getting ready to locate & drill driver's outside trunk extension panel2.jpg finally, cleco'd on the chassis after matching the shape driver's outside trunk extension panel3.jpg

Then, I duplicated for the Passenger side: passenger rear outside trunk panel extension1.jpg passenger rear outside trunk panel extension2.jpg

Now, if I can just catch a break from work, I'll have more to show next weekend...Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

I got a little quality time in the garage this weekend and pressed on with miscellaneous panel fitment that impact the body fitment. First, I wanted to drill fastener holes into my "big tire" F-panels in a repeatable way so that I can quickly drill the "elephant ears" when that time comes. I made a simple drilling jig out of some scrap Al angle, measured and drilled holes every 2" and clamped it up. Here's the before picture front splashguard drilling jig.jpg and here's an after picture passenger f-panel drilled for splashguard.jpg

Next, I tried my proof-of-concept rear outside trunk "extension" panels by mounting the body again, but waiting to install the panels until after the body was in-place. I could get to all the clecos, and I checked the measurements again: there isn't enough room to do it the "traditional" way without really yanking on the body and/or trimming up the rear "roll pan". I'm happy with my decision to deviate from the build manual in this regard. Here's a picture: outside rear trunk panel extension proof-of-concept.jpg

Happy with the approach, my next objective was to try a trick from the Build School. Here's the tool: 1 1/4" fender washer! bulb seal gap marker tool.jpg This is used to mark the Al panels so that a consistent bulb-seal gap can be achieved. You simply place the washer on the Al panel to be marked, insert a pen into the center opening, and roll it along the gap! I tried it on the panel recommended by the Build School: the Passenger-side firewall extension. Here's a picture of the trimming needed to get a consistent fit to the cowl/upper fender area passenger firewall extension panel mock-up.jpg

I also tried it on my rear fender splashguards (although the picture quality is sub-standard) passenger rear splash guard mock-up.jpg the fit is actually pretty good for the rear splashguards

Lastly, I took a bunch of measurements of the rear suspension points as reference to the fender well opening and believe I'm "somewhat" symmetrical with the rough fitment of the rear splashguards. I have a consistent measurement from the bottom of the rear fender "lip" to the splashguard where the tab gets drilled into the underbody. Passengerpassenger rear splash guard mock-up2.jpg and Driverdriver's rear splashguard mock-up.jpg

Next weekend: front fender splashguard panel fitment

Until then, Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

Hope you had a nice Labor Day weekend! I got to work on my Roadster

I'm continuing where I left off from the last post -- more rough fitment of the splashguard panels. A refresher on why I'm doing this: 1) In the rear, I just didn't want to compromise on the outer trunk panel interference "fit" with the rolled under edge of the rear body shape, so I'm making my own panels that I can install after the body is mounted. Since this means cutting the trunk panels in two, I need to make sure my design still fits. 2) In the front, I am using the "fat tire" F-panels. These extend the mounting flange 2" rearward (among other things) and I needed to see how the unmodified splash panels fit with this change.

Rear splash panel: Sketch of my approach rear splashguard mounting design sketch.jpg

I measured and bent the new "extension" panels where I wanted them and confirmed the splash panels butt up against these new bent mounting flanges and still align where they used to. Some pictures of the Passenger side passenger rear splash guard mock-up after braking rear extension panel.jpg passenger rear splash guard mock-up after braking rear extension panel2.jpg passenger rear splash guard mock-up after braking rear extension panel3.jpg The Driver's side turned out the same driver's rear splashguard mock-up after braking rear extension panel.jpg driver's rear splashguard mock-up after braking rear extension panel2.jpg

With those fitting properly, I proceeded to cut the original outside trunk panels to fit. Here's the method used for marking the panels: sandwich the original and the "extension" together using the clecos passenger rear outside trunk panel marked for cutting.jpg

Thusly marked and now cut, then cleco'ed the two panels in place, and clamped the splash guards in-place to confirm overall rough fitment was maintained. Driver's side: driver's side cut outside trunk panel with extension panel and splashguard mockup.jpg driver's side cut outside trunk panel with extension panel and splashguard mockup2.jpg Passenger side fit very nicely, as well

Happy Building!

Craig C

[cc2Arider]

Hey Y'All,

Having an extra day in the garage really helped me move along this weekend

I spent a good part of my time figuring out where the unmodified front splash guard panels needed to be modified to fit my "fat tire" F-panels. Recall that these panels moved the mounting flange 2" rearward...

Just for kicks, I decided to fit my original F-panel with the splash guard panels and the fitment wasn't that good anyway, so I felt a big relief that I could proceed with my modifications

My overall observation was that the splash panels "were in the ballpark", but seemed to ride "high". Here's where I started to mark passenger front splashguard prior to trimming bottom tab area.jpg and then trim up the bottom of the panels near the small body-mounting tab passenger front splashguard after initial trimming and flattening bottom tab area.jpg (notice that I flattened the original mounting tab to try to salvage as much material as possible).

Next, trimmed to fit and ready to bend a new mounting tab passenger front splashguard ready to re-bend bottom tab area.jpg

Here it is bent passenger front splashguard with re-bent bottom tab.jpg (note the area still needing to be trimmed)

I proceeded to the Driver's side. Here's a detail of the reshaped and re-bent bottom area detail of re-bent driver's side front splashguard bottom tab.jpg

Overall rough fitment of Passenger side passenger side front splashguard fitment after modification.jpg Pretty good! The Driver's side didn't fit as well (too much gap still), but I'm not too worried now since that section of body moves a lot! I suspect I won't narrow down the placement until I get much closer to final assembly and fit the doors (for reference). Anyway, here's the Driver's side driver's side front splashguard fitment after modification.jpg

Until next time, Happy Building!

Craig C

[Blitzboy54]

Hey Y'All,

It's pleasant weather here and finally got to some outside chores, so not a lot of Roadster build progress

I did spend some time thinking about how to choose the location of the dash panel. I know...the Build Manual tells us to locate the dash panel top edge 3/16" above the ends of the curved dash tube. Since this dimension can change depending on the side-to-side location, I took my time to locate it. I still didn't get it perfect, but I heard from the experienced builders to not expect too much precision for the panel and body measurements...

The one thing I couldn't rely on was the steering stem hole since I modified the stem alignment a little in order to fit my RT tribute steering shaft support bracket. So that left me to choose what the "critical" side-to-side measurement reference was. I chose the bottom bent flange as my reference. Maybe this choice could have been different?

Anyway, half of the width got me a centerline, and I aligned it with the centerline of the horizontal 2" cross tube, then checked for level on the bottom flange. Pretty close. I think I'm a 1/16" off. I think that's good enough, but I'd welcome any feedback! Here's the "big" picture
dash panel mockup 1.jpg

Next came some measurements against the curved dash tube, just to confirm I'm in the right location. I couldn't get the height measurements to agree side-to-side, so I'm looking for some feedback. Did I make the right decision to confirm "level" first? Then confirm "center"?

Does the height from the top of the panel to the top of the curved dash tube need to be per the Build Manual, or "good enough"?

Here's my dimensions against the top of the curved tube (with the panel "level"):
minimum Driver's side = 3/16" dash panel mockup 3-16 min to driver's curved tube.jpg

maximum height along the Driver's side to the curved tube = 7/16" dash panel mockup 7-16 max height to driver's curved tube.jpg

height at the center = 4/16" dash panel mockup 4-16 to center curved tube.jpg

maximum height along the passenger side to the curved top tube is about 9/16" dash panel mockup 9-16 max height to passenger curved tube.jpg

minimum Passenger side = 2/16" dash panel mockup 2-16 min to passenger curved tube.jpg

Once again, I'd appreciate some feedback -- let me know if I'm losing the forest for the trees...

Happy Building!

Craig C

As long as the corners and steering shaft hole is lined up don't worry about the radius of the frame. That top tube is not concentric or even. The body covers the tope of the dash. Jeff recommends the tip of the frame being just above the frame at the corners.

In general your build looks great. 4 wheel motorcycle is a very accurate way to describe these cars. Accelerates like a bike and corners four times as fast.

[cc2Arider]

Thanks Jesse