302 decision...Carb "classic" 302 vs Coyote

[Mike.Bray]

Damn, thats clean! Did you have issues tuning the Stack EFI?

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.



A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

[fauxbra5.0]

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.



A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

I live by the saying “you get what you pay for”, and often times the option with the lowest barrier of entry has the highest ongoing costs/work involved. I’m all about that “set it and forget it” life.

[Mike.Bray]

I live by the saying “you get what you pay for”, and often times the option with the lowest barrier of entry has the highest ongoing costs/work involved. I’m all about that “set it and forget it” life.

It is soooo true. Take the Sniper, fantastic idea. A self-tuning EFI system that bolts on like a carburetor and contains everything you need except the fuel pump all for about $1k. Unfortunately the Sniper can be very problematic, there's entire forums dedicated to Sniper problems.

[fauxbra5.0]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

[TrackDay17]

Great thread, I've had the same thoughts on which engine to choose for my future build.
I keep thinking a fuel injected 347 would be the sweet spot for a pushrod engine.
Although the Coyote is probably a better performer I just prefer the looks and sound of the pushrod engines.
I guess it's growing up around my dad's sprint cars and that nasty loping idle that I love.

[edwardb]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

Not Mike... but this is a discussion much like the engine choice. You'll get lots of points of view and up to you to decide. My answer is short. I've had all three solid axle types (3-link, 4-link and Levy's 5-link) and two IRS builds. I prefer the IRS. Yes, there is a cost difference. But can be mitigated some and in the long run adds value. Here are some threads where this has been previously discussed:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ng-performance

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-IRS-vs-3-link

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-3-link-w-15-s

[Blitzboy54]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

Just the like engine my first build was a 3 link. The car was by a mile the most elite handling vehicle I’ve ever driven. That is an individual statement as I only drive everyday cars for the most part and motorcycles are a different kettle of fish. Having said that the just like the pushrod I knew if I built another one it would be IRS. I’ve now driven both and the IRS is better IMO. Is it worth the extra $5000? It’s a personal choice. I will say this the difference in cost between a small block 3 link vs a coyote IRS is at least $10,000. If money is the issue you may want to go that route. You will absolutely not regret it.

Now if you really want to hit the trifecta you will ask about power steering next.

[fauxbra5.0]

Just the like engine my first build was a 3 link. The car was by a mile the most elite handling vehicle I’ve ever driven. That is an individual statement as I only drive everyday cars for the most part and motorcycles are a different kettle of fish. Having said that the just like the pushrod I knew if I built another one it would be IRS. I’ve now driven both and the IRS is better IMO. Is it worth the extra $5000? It’s a personal choice. I will say this the difference in cost between a small block 3 link vs a coyote IRS is at least $10,000. If money is the issue you may want to go that route. You will absolutely not regret it.

Now if you really want to hit the trifecta you will ask about power steering next.

I think the ONLY decision that’s 100% made is power steering! I’ve been lurking the forums long enough to know the all the benefits it provides.

[Mike.Bray]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

I went with pin drive wheels so I needed the narrow rear end. With a lot of work and money I think I could have narrowed the IRS but it was just simpler to do the 3 link with a narrowed 8.8". And Forte had one in stock with the Wilwood brake setup.

To me it rides fine taking into account it's a 90" wheelbase high performance car and not your wife's grocery getter. For sure the IRS would ride a little smoother, not sure I can say by how much though. I will add that I installed the Breeze lower control arms which are a good upgrade from the arms FFR supply.

I always have a list of things I would do different on any car or project but with this one I'm pretty happy with it. If I did another one I might consider adding a hydraboost to the brakes.

[fauxbra5.0]

Not Mike... but this is a discussion much like the engine choice. You'll get lots of points of view and up to you to decide. My answer is short. I've had all three solid axle types (3-link, 4-link and Levy's 5-link) and two IRS builds. I prefer the IRS. Yes, there is a cost difference. But can be mitigated some and in the long run adds value. Here are some threads where this has been previously discussed:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ng-performance

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-IRS-vs-3-link

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-3-link-w-15-s

Thank you as always for your expertise!

[drewr]

You've heard from all the right people on this site, and the discussion was a nice synopsis of how to think about the choice. The only thing not really addressed is that you should consider what your motivation is for building the car. If you like the idea of building your own performance car but are not really sure what engine to put in it, then you should probably go Coyote. If nostalgia or Shelby love has anything to do with your choice, I'd seriously consider a small block Ford. It was the Raison d'etre for the Cobra. Looks, sound, period correct, etc. Is a carbed push rod engine more of a PITA? Yes. But, it is the thing. All to say, just be sure you scratch the right itch.

[fauxbra5.0]

You've heard from all the right people on this site, and the discussion was a nice synopsis of how to think about the choice. The only thing not really addressed is that you should consider what your motivation is for building the car. If you like the idea of building your own performance car but are not really sure what engine to put in it, then you should probably go Coyote. If nostalgia or Shelby love has anything to do with your choice, I'd seriously consider a small block Ford. It was the Raison d'etre for the Cobra. Looks, sound, period correct, etc. Is a carbed push rod engine more of a PITA? Yes. But, it is the thing. All to say, just be sure you scratch the right itch.

Agreed on all points. Its like the legends of the forum showed up and educated my caveman mind!

[Avalanche325]

It really comes down to what you want and what you think a Cobra should be like. I wanted mine to be more old school in personality, not just looks. (OK, I do run an electronic distributor).

You do have to DRIVE you carbed car more. It takes some warmup. You have to be in the right gear at the right time. You also need a little finesse with your right foot. You can't romp it at 1600 rpms in 4th and expect it to be happy. To me, that is a huge part of a Cobra. Some people see that as an annoyance.

It is easy-peasy to get 500hp (crank) out of a 347. Heck that is still in the stock block and cast crank zone. You have to use aftermarket heads. Stock Windsor heads are the restriction, no matter what you do to them. If you do a 427 and don't have 500hp, I would think something is wrong.

9 years in, running pump premium and no issues at all with the carb. I live at the beach in Florida where moisture is crazy high. E-10 does absorb moisture, but only if it sits around. New carbs have better metallurgy and coatings. The "horror" pictures are usually very old carbs. Drive the car and if it is going to sit, fill the tank. Tons of people are running E-85 with a carb. Somehow, they seem to survive. I have never had vapor lock either. Again, I am in Florida.

[rich grsc]

IRS, I recommend it, and it won't be a $5000 upgrade. Sure it will cost more, but if you have 40-50k build, is another $2500-3000 really the NO ISSUE?

[TrackDay17]

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.



A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

Mike Bray, that engine bay and sound is just amazing ! That stack injection looks so good !

[GoDadGo]

Here is a great video done by Hot Rod Magazine over a decade ago.
This will likely really help you do a real world powerplant comparison.

https://youtu.be/V96-AQ1FghI

If I were going with a short deck SBF I'd either go with a 347 or 363.

https://blueprintengines.com/collect...blocks-347-c-i

Happy Engine Shopping!

[Blitzboy54]

IRS, I recommend it, and it won't be a $5000 upgrade. Sure it will cost more, but if you have 40-50k build, is another $2500-3000 really the NO ISSUE?

No, that's right. When i wrote that I looked at my invoice and added it up. I included the pumpkin, knuckles and hubs. Those parts are the equivalent of the rear end if you go with the 3 link. So that is a wash. The cost is actually under 3k. Rich is correct, sorry about that.

My Coyote math holds up

[fauxbra5.0]

I think I watch that video once a month. Such a great overview of the cars, options, and how they compare to one another. Thanks Steve!

[NiceGuyEddie]

Late to the party here, but I can't help but give my analogy that I've been sharing for 20 years:

How often do you shave?

Every day/ Every other day - go EFI.
Whenever - go Carb!

[fauxbra5.0]

Late to the party here, but I can't help but give my analogy that I've been sharing for 20 years:

How often do you shave?

Every day/ Every other day - go EFI.
Whenever - go Carb!

im too lazy to shave everyday…besides I’m half Italian and half wookie. I guess carb it is! Haha

[Jim1855]

im too lazy to shave everyday…besides I’m half Italian and half wookie. I guess carb it is! Haha

So I'm laughing...

I toyed with the idea of EFI but in the long run I like the simplicity of a carb. Once tuned they work well. I would however recommend a good carb and I'm a big fan of the ProSystems options. For me it's mechanical secondaries, no-choke or horn, big air cleaner and mechanical linkage.

I did just see a dyno run of a 340 Duster with new Holley Sniper. The throttle response was fast and it made great power.

Jim

[Dgc333]

FWIW, the 302 (or a 347) is period correct, fits nicely, and can be easily dressed up to look very nice. Carbs are ancient technology and don't play nicely with today's ethanol blended gas. The reason is gasoline will evaporate at the temperatures most of us like to cruise in, and that means the gasoline disappears and leaves the residue of the ethanol behind. It clogs the multitude of precision passages that make a carburetor function. Most carb tuning and advice is rooted in pre-ethanol times, so even using jetting and setup advice can be tough, as ethanol fuel behaves differently compared to “pure” gasoline. It's why you buy ethanol-free gas at Home Depot for your lawn mower. From first hand experience for reliability and drivability EFI is light years ahead.

The Coyote is amazing technology and if you order from Forte he supplies a free shoehorn to assist in installing it. I just removed the headers from my 351W to have them ceramic coated, I cannot even imagine doing that job with a Coyote as tight as it is.

I would have to disagree regarding carbs and ethanol gas not playing well together. I have a 68 Barracuda that I have driven just shy of 100,000 miles in the past 24 years and have used nothing but E10 gas (all that has been available since the 90s) and the carb has been trouble free. Also, FWIW, I have used nothing but E10 in all my lawn equipment since the 90s and haven't had an issue with them either.

[Mike.Bray]

I would have to disagree regarding carbs and ethanol gas not playing well together. I have a 68 Barracuda that I have driven just shy of 100,000 miles in the past 24 years and have used nothing but E10 gas (all that has been available since the 90s) and the carb has been trouble free. Also, FWIW, I have used nothing but E10 in all my lawn equipment since the 90s and haven't had an issue with them either.

That's wonderful!! I have no way of really knowing, I haven't owned any sort of car or truck with a carb since the late 80's. I did have some racing karts a few years ago with Rotax 2 stroke engines and carbs but these got completely disassembled and cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner after every outing. Only carb i have now is on my leaf blower which I haven't been able to get started in several months.

[Mike.Bray]

How carb guys see EFI




How EFI guys see carbs

[rich grsc]

Your carb mechanic has the wrong sized wrench

[Jeff Kleiner]

How carb guys see EFI




How EFI guys see carbs

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:





Jeff

[fauxbra5.0]

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:





Jeff

Thanks Jeff & Mike...now I need to go clean all the soda I spit all over my desk...

[TBull]

I say to each their own. I'm somewhere in the middle. I have a Big Bore 347 with a cam sync and coil on plug with port injection and a 1000cfm throttle body. I'm very familiar with a 302 engine and can take this thing apart and rebuild any part of it. I have big paws and just find it hard working around a coyote in the roadster. I'm encouraged by Paul saying there is more room in the Coupe for a coyote. But with my EFI set up being run from a Holley HP+ I'm real happy, so to me it is a complex ask about how you want your car setup. I say put in what ever will make you the happiest and you think is cool. You can find plenty of examples of almost any engine combo, even the Redbone LS

[Mike.Bray]

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:





Jeff

That is hilarious Jeff!!

[GoDadGo]

Jeff,

You Forgot That Us Swamp Dwellers Like Those Things Fuel Drippy Things Too.
Please update your photo to the Edelbrock AVS or AVS-2.
The Performer Is So 20th Century!

Cheers,

Steve

[Mike.Bray]

The Performer Is So 20th Century!

And the carb is so 19th century!

[GoDadGo]

And the carb is so 19th century!

Yes, Mr. Mike you are 100% correct; however, I was speaking specifically about the Performer, versus the AVS Series carbs from Edelbrock.
Those carbs, as you know, trace their ancestry to the beloved Carter AFB fuel dispensers used on many cars in the 1960's.

[Mike.Bray]

Yes, Mike you are 100% correct; however, I was speaking specifically about the Performer, versus the AVS Series carbs from Edelbrock who ancestry came from the beloved Carter AFB fuel dispensers.

I once had a pair of Carter AFBs on top of a 6-71 blower on a SBC. It was interesting as the AFBs worked better on the huffer than Holleys did, I never could figure out the power valves for the blower. But that was almost 50 years ago!

Probably around 1990 I got my first Accel/DFI programmable ECU, the software was DOS based but still very powerful. The biggest limitation with those early systems were the narrow band O2 sensors and the crappy MAP sensors. With individual runner stack systems I had to run the system in Alpha-N mode using RPM and throttle position for the main fuel map as we couldn't get a decent signal from the MAP sensor. Today's systems are light years ahead! Fun times though.

[CW_MI]

I'm sure that this discussion has been beaten to death already, but in planning my build, this is the 2nd toughest decision I have. This car is going to be my "4 wheeled motorcycle", taking it on weekend cruises, a little highway cruising into the Smoky Mountains or the occasional rip to the office in fair weather. Ive been battling the decision from a cost and complexity standpoint of going with a crate 302 (like a Fortes build), or a Coyote. Assuming a carb'd 302 (or even EFI'd) would be a serious cost savings compared to a Coyote, especially now with the Gen4s coming out. Some questions for those way more experienced than I am...

• From a performance standpoint, I know the HP/Torque difference would be significant, but in terms of being "streetable", would there be a realistic difference (besides
• From a build complexity & wiring standpoint, how much more complex is the Coyote than a crate motor for a relative novice?

What other factors am I completely missing here? Any and all advice is welcomed.

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

[narly1]

I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4

This novice engine builder had good luck with the PF4 as far using it for my 302 project and getting it to start and run.

I haven't dropped it in the car yet but not anticipating any major issues.

Earl

P.S. My usage case for the car is much like yours.

[CW_MI]

This novice engine builder had good luck with the PF4 as far using it for my 302 project and getting it to start and run.

I haven't dropped it in the car yet but not anticipating any major issues.

Earl

P.S. My usage case for the car is much like yours.

Great to hear. Looking forward to hearing some of the drivability and tuning feedback, once you get the motor in. I have friends that own shops that swear by the higher end Holley systems, and I believe them. Although, they specialize in building 1000hp plus boosted motors for drag cars.

[fauxbra5.0]

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat! Started with the Coyote/IRS, then debated 3-Links, and started looking at pushrod SBFs with EFI!

[CW_MI]

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat! Started with the Coyote/IRS, then debated 3-Links, and started looking at pushrod SBFs with EFI!

Exactly. Planning and research. I've got a livable document that I keep adding to, as my research progresses. Just different parts from vendors that will enhance the build, links to threads that offer tips and tricks to help the build go smoothly, etc.

And then, I might attend the build school, since it isn't really that far from where I live. All the research in the world isn't as good as actual hands on experience. And, I'm finding that all the reading here, can be somewhat overwhelming. I went down the rabbit hole of wiring and dash layouts last week...yeah, I'll just wait until I'm at that point of the build. LOL

[Mike.Bray]

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

The 347 will be quite a bit less money than the 427 and still have more than enough power for you. And the Edlebrock Pro Flow is a really nice EFI system, check out the new feature it has where you can tune it from your phone.

I have the 3 link and so far I'm happy with it. If you go that route you want to upgrade the lower trailing arms to the Breeze ones. https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/ro...ntrol-arm-kit/

[Mike.Bray]

And, I'm finding that all the reading here, can be somewhat overwhelming.

I'll pass on some words that have served me well for decades when working on projects like building a car. It's like eating an elephant, do it one bite at a time.