Power Windows

[Rigdotcom]

It's me again.

I searched the threads before asking. You all have been key to my rebuild of GTM #34. Be it great advice, dimensions, ideas, or even parts.

So, to my question.

I absolutely hate the setup of the power windows. I prefer the FBody style of windows, for those who have been unfortunate enough to work on an FBody.

The motors completely quit on me. I opted against the factory switches and I am using relays. It was installed with the factory switch originally, and the windows struggled to move. I tried with battery power, with the car started, and it was still super sluggish. There is not a great amp draw and I am using an optima yellow top battery.

The install is also a bit sketchy. A few poor, rusted mig welds on the frame and the channel are holding them in place. I attached a few pictures of the current setup in the driver's door. I already cut all of that down with a metabo.

Is there a recommended setup, or something that can be fabricated, to make this work again? If the factory setup is the best option, is there a recommended manufacturer for the window motor and regulator?

I'm not opposed to something experimental.

Thanks in advance.

[Erik W. Treves]

The stock setup will work - you do have to play around with the seals such that they don't drag on the window - which likely caused the failure. I see that the door frame hasn't been cut yet... the other thing is that the rails need to be completely parallel if they are not then it will also drag.... the stock door frames are too close to the outer skin and I typically cut the door frame close to the hinge and set it back an inch and then make sure the rails are parallel.... but that's me.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Yeah.....as Erik mentioned, there is a lot going on with the doors/windows to make them work right. Not sure if there are any better choices in window regulators out there.....any time you change something, it opens up a new can of worms with a whole new set of issues. The doors are designed to take the C5 regulators, so that's all I've used. Yes, the first thing I do (as Erik mentioned) is cut the door frames....cut the tubes right at where the weldment begins at the front. The door frame tubes need to be moved inboard (toward the center of the car) as far as possible in order to make room for the window regulator to operate. I use the inner door panel as a guide....I move the door frame as far as the inner door panel will allow. I install the door latch onto the steel bracket as far out on the bracket as it will go.....so that the mount surface for the rear part of the door frame is moved inboard as far as it will go. Once all of that is done, then you need to get the regulator positioned so that the window moves freely up and down....which means the 2 window tracks need to be completely parallel to each other in both planes. You also need to make sure the tracks are as "vertical" as you can make them. If you have them angled back too far, then, when the window is rolling down, the leading edge of the glass will be driven right into the door. You want that leading edge to either be parallel to the direction of travel (so the glass doesn't get any closer to the door/opening as the window is rolled down, or pulls away from the door as it goes down. You also need to watch the top of the glass and make sure that as the window is rolling down, the top edge isn't getting closer to the inside of the door or outside of the door....or twisting on the way down to where the front is moving out and the rear is moving in. You also need to constantly pay attention to where the top of the window ends up in relation to the body with the door closed. Once you get all of that accomplished, then...again, as Erik said, make sure the beltline weatherstripping on the door along the base of the glass is not putting any pressure on the glass. If it does, it will bog the window motor down.

This is not a simple project. I've had a couple doors where everything just fell into place and had the window adjusted and position finalized with just a couple minor adjustments. I've had others that I worked on for several days and never ended up happy with the final result.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a replacement window motor. You have to buy then entire regulator as an assembly....and I'm not so sure that GM has stopped producing these...so the only options left are used or aftermarket.

[Rigdotcom]

That is a lot.

I was just telling the wife that after I was done with the shaved handles and the cooling system it was smooth sailing and my weekends wouldn't be tied up.

Looks like I have a new task to tackle. Do you have any pictures of the modifications?

[Rigdotcom]

Looking at where to cut the frame. Can someone mark this up on a recommended area? I don't want to start cutting and guessing.

[Rigdotcom]

I'm also a bit surprised by the amount of hardware that isn't stainless in the build. Especially in the doors and some of the "wet" areas.

[crash]

I can't remember for sure, but I seem to recall that Shane sold something like a jig to cut and reweld the door frames? If he doesn't, he should.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Door Frame Cuts.jpg

Ok....where the red lines are at the front of the door frame....that's where I cut them. You aren't cutting the weldment....just the tubes...right at where the welds begin. At the rear.....that depends on what's going on. If it's a door that I've started from scratch and the latch is installed as far outboard as possible on the steel bracket, I usually don't have to cut the frame all the way thru there.....I just cut it deep enough that I can bend/twist the rear mounting bracket (2 holes that mount the door frame to the latch bracket) to match the latch bracket and get the front 2 tubes positioned how I want them. Please note that the inner door panel is not flat/straight across, so you can't just use a straight edge across the door to determine how far you can move the door frame....you have to use the inner door panel. You can almost always position the tubes so that some part of the top and bottom tubes are touching where you cut them off of the hinge weldment. You don't want to change the height of the tubes....so vertically, you want the top of the top tube still flush with the top of the tube where you cut it off of the weldment. I usually do this with the rear of the door frame bolted up to the latch plate....just loose enough so I can move it around....not sloppy loose. It helps to have a wedge or chunk of 2x4 laying in the bottom of the door to rest the front of the door frame on to keep it in position. Once I'm happy with the position of the tubes relative to the door panel and the weldment, I look at how the rear of the door frame sits against the door latch plate. If the 2 bracket surfaces aren't flat together, I determine what needs to be done.....just bend the whole door bracket in or out or have to twist it or both.....and that's when I'll determine how much I need to cut the rear of the door frame to accomplish that. If it just needs to bend a bit, I'll just cut about half way thru both tubes on the inboard side, clamp the bracket in the vice and bend it. If the bracket needs to twist, I'll usually cut all the way thru the big tube and half way thru the small tube and bend/twist as needed. Keep test fitting the frame until the front part of both tubes end up where you want them and the 2-hole rear bracket ends up sitting completely flush with the door latch bracket. Once that's all done, I get everything positioned and reach thru the window with the welder and tack weld the top and bottom tubes to hold them in position. Once they're tacked, I pull the whole door off and lay it on the bench and finish welding it up by cutting chunks of steel to bridge the gaps and box everything back in as well as I can.

BTW.....all this needs to be done with the door on the car and closed and in the exact position you want the door to be on the car when it's done. If the door is misaligned when you're doing all of the above ^^^^...it will be misaligned when you're done and you may or may not have enough adjustment to get it into alignment.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

I can't remember for sure, but I seem to recall that Shane sold something like a jig to cut and reweld the door frames? If he doesn't, he should.

Every door is different. Sometimes I can move the front of the door frame out the entire width of the tubes.....in other words, I'm welding the back side of the 1" tube of the frame to the front side of the 1" tube on the weldment...and same with the 3/4" tube. On some cars, I can only move the door frame out about a half-tube width before hitting the inner door panel. On some cars, the rear part of the door frame only needs to be bent in or out in one plane. On many of them, it needs to be both bent and twisted to sit flat against the latch bracket.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

20171208_153301.jpg

Maybe not the best example, but you get the idea. Usually, I try to move the bottom tube inboard a bit more than this example...but as you can see, the top tube is moved inboard about the full width of the tube.

[Rigdotcom]

That definitely helps. I hope to get to it next weekend. I have to tweak the door alignment on the driver side as well. It's a bit hard to close without force.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

That definitely helps. I hope to get to it next weekend. I have to tweak the door alignment on the driver side as well. It's a bit hard to close without force.

Check out the bolt that holds the bottom of the rear window track in place......there is not clearance for that bolt head between the body and door....so if you don't grind a clearance hole in the main body, that bolt head will not allow the door to close all the way without forcing the door to warp.

[Rigdotcom]

Looks like this was part of the problem with the door.

I finally had time to pull the door off and I meticulously put every bit of hardware into little plastic bins. I was 1 short.

I'm probably going to have to spend a little time at the lathe with a caliper.20241210_195434.jpg

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

You can order those bushings from McMaster Carr.....

[Rigdotcom]

That would be much easier! I think I'll try that. Is there a part number for them?

[Rigdotcom]

I was measuring in millimeters and not inches. Tractor Supply has them. They have to be milled down a bit, but they work.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

The bushing in your photo is not an FFR part. The bushings that come with the kit are only about half that long. They're 1/2" OD and 3/8" ID.....McMaster has a bunch of different ones to choose from.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/bu...~0-500/od~0-5/

[Rigdotcom]

So I have the shorter bushings. I like the idea of a full sleeve bushing. I use a similar brass bushing to rebuild a component of a Blowmolder. It works for a rejection cylinder. When the upper or lower bushings start to wear, the middle of the bushing compensates.

I didn't have the time to wait for McMaster Carr. I needed them quick to mock things up.

I cut and welded the door frame today and it closes smoothly.