Continue to Have Intermittent Stalls

[Papa]

A little history first. About three years ago, while driving my car on a level roadway at 40 mph, the car just died. I coasted to a stop and was able to restart the car with no problem and continued on my way. This happened again a few months later while on a more traveled roadway, and I was simply able to dump the clutch after coasting for a few seconds and it fired right back up. The issue started to happen more frequently, and the car was also starting to run rough and act like it was out of fuel. I also noticed a loud whine from my in-tank fuel pump. I pulled the pump, and the inlet was clogged with gunk. At this point, I did a complete fuel and ignition system swap on the car. New tank, lines, filters, EFI (swapped from a Sniper to Inglese EFI stacks), distributor, plug wires, coil, etc. This corrected the fuel issue, but the car was still randomly stalling and has progressively gotten worse to the point that it stalls multiple times each time I take the car out. I have redone all the grounds and that has not corrected the stalling issue. I have a new battery, and the alternator is charging properly. I’m at a loss as to what is causing this issue. When the car stalls, it is just like someone turned off the key. I’ve replaced the ignition switch as well. Also, when the car stalls, the gauges and EFI remain powered on. The only other common component between the original systems and current systems is the wire harness. I’m thinking I may have a bad connection in the harness to the coil, but any other ideas that the community has that I can look at would be appreciated.

[rich grsc]

What coil are you using? Sounds similar to what I had happen, went through 2 MSD coils, each lasted about 6-8000 miles. Grabbed an old Ford coil from a 93 Mustang, solved all the problems. Still working after 31 years.
My buddy was filling up at the gas station, he & I were talking when all of a sudden smoke started pouring out of the hood scoop. When he opened the hood, the coil had blown the top off and the oil in the coil was everywhere. He had flipped on the ignition to check his milage and forgot to turn it back off, less than 2 minutes and the coil overheated and blew. It was an MSD with less than 5000 miles

[Papa]

What coil are you using? Sounds similar to what I had happen, went through 2 MSD coils, each lasted about 6-8000 miles. Grabbed an old Ford coil from a 93 Mustang, solved all the problems. Still working after 31 years.

Rich,

It's one of the new square ones that came with the stuff Jim Inglese sent me. I should try to swap it out for the old-school type and see if that helps. Seems low probability to have two completely different coils have the same problem, but as you point out, it can happen. This issue is what has kept my car home instead of joining you guys since I've been in Missouri.

Dave

[Railroad]

Might verify your gas tank is vented. Easy check might be leaving the cap off, or loose.
Posting your engine and other specs might help.
Hopefully you will find an easy fix.
If not, I would run a visibile temporary fuel pressure gauge, light bulb to the hot side of the coil.
Good luck,

[phileas_fogg]

I had a fuel pump relay that would shut off when it overheated. Swapped the relay to a Bosch unit and haven't had a problem since. So since it's quick, easy, and cheap, you might as well check the fuel pump relay.


John

[Papa]

Might verify your gas tank is vented. Easy check might be leaving the cap off, or loose.
Posting your engine and other specs might help.
Hopefully you will find an easy fix.
If not, I would run a visibile temporary fuel pressure gauge, light bulb to the hot side of the coil.
Good luck,

I had a fuel pump relay that would shut off when it overheated. Swapped the relay to a Bosch unit and haven't had a problem since. So since it's quick, easy, and cheap, you might as well check the fuel pump relay.


John

The fuel tank is vented. When I replaced it, I put one of the Breeze big-bore vents on the new tank. The engine is a BPE 347 with Inglese 8-stack EFI managed by a Holly Terminator X. Ignition is a Holly Dual Sync distributor and MSD ignition box and coil. Fuel pressure is steady at 43 psi per the guidelines that Jim provided with the stacks. The car was doing the same thing with the Sniper and MSD billet distributor and Blaster-II coil setup. The coil is getting power via a relay that I installed that uses the RF EFI/Coil wire for the trigger and gets power from my buss bar connected directly to my battery. I've replaced that relay with a new Bosch relay and that didn't make any difference. The Terminator X computer is also wired directly to the battery for both +/- connections. The Terminator is controlling my fuel pump and I'm not using the RF fuel pump relay. The Terminator harness has its own relay for the fuel pump control.

[gbranham]

I had a very similiar issue on a Fox Body Mustang I restored several years ago. I tried everything you've done, and more. A mechanic buddy of mine said 'replace the spark plugs with a high-quality plug'. I did, and never had the problem again.

Greg

[rich grsc]

Rich,

It's one of the new square ones that came with the stuff Jim Inglese sent me. I should try to swap it out for the old-school type and see if that helps. Seems low probability to have two completely different coils have the same problem, but as you point out, it can happen. This issue is what has kept my car home instead of joining you guys since I've been in Missouri.

Dave

If you are using an iron-core coil, then I think you're ok there. All my issues happened with the oil filled coils (MSD).

Wait, just reread what your posted, "The coil is getting power via a relay that I installed that uses the RF EFI/Coil wire for the trigger and gets power from my buss bar connected directly to my battery". Not sure I understand what you mean here, the coil should be fed from the MSD box.

[weendoggy]

I guess you have to figure out if it's fuel or ignition. What ECU is Ingleese running? Crank and cam trigger? You say all the gauges still show working, but what does the RPM show at that time? If zero, I'd be looking at the crank or cam trigger. You can have everything working fine and lose RPM signal and it'll stop running just as you say.

[Papa]

If you are using an iron-core coil, then I think you're ok there. All my issues happened with the oil filled coils (MSD).

Wait, just reread what your posted, "The coil is getting power via a relay that I installed that uses the RF EFI/Coil wire for the trigger and gets power from my buss bar connected directly to my battery". Not sure I understand what you mean here, the coil should be fed from the MSD box.

Rich,

You are correct. The setup I described was what was in place with the Sniper. When I installed the ignition box, that EFI/Coil keyed power went to the new box and the coil is fed from the box.

Dave

[Papa]

I guess you have to figure out if it's fuel or ignition. What ECU is Ingleese running? Crank and cam trigger? You say all the gauges still show working, but what does the RPM show at that time? If zero, I'd be looking at the crank or cam trigger. You can have everything working fine and lose RPM signal and it'll stop running just as you say.

I really don't think it's fuel as it doesn't sputter or anything before it stalls. Crank and cam sensors are in the new distributor (Dual Sync), which replaced my MSD billet distributor that I was using with the Sniper. The Terminator needed the Dual Sync for the stacks if I recall ... something to do with the "hall effect' feature.

[RJD]

I wonder if the problem is that relay that powers the coil. I've got the Sniper and have the MSD Blaster coil powered directly by the EFI or Coil wire - no relay.

[danmas]

Dave,

Sorry to hear about the troubles. I have the same configuration (Inglese 8 stack) and I have the Terminator X setup. I haven't hit first start yet so I can't help you, but I am watching the thread as it probably impacts me as well.

Dan

[Kbl7td]

Brother you have a terminator X. Literally every facet is monitored by the computer. Just data log.

[bobl]

A data log will give you a good idea of what's going on. Get a fuel pressure gauge if you don't have one. I personally like the Holley fuel pressure sensor connected to the ecu, that way you can see it on the data log.

[Nigel Allen]

Hi Papa,

build this little circuit into a small box and put it in view whilst driving the car. It is a latching relay circuit with a pilot lamp. It will detect loss of power (either negative or positive) to a wire. Best of all, even if the fault is momentary, it will catch it.

Latching relay small.pdf

It works as follows -
Chasing a fault in a positive wire:
1. connect positive lead to device under test (DUT) that is suspected of losing power, eg fuel pump.
2. connect negative lead to ground.
3. Start car. Press push button on test unit. Lamp should light and stay lit until power is interrupted to DUT. Even a flicker in power will cause lamp to go out and stay out.
4. if lamp goes out during testing of car, you have found your problem.

Chasing a fault in a negative wire:
1. connect negative lead to device under test (DUT) that is suspected of losing power, eg fuel pump.
2. connect positive lead via a fuse to battery positive.
3. Start car. Press push button on test unit. Lamp should light and stay lit until power is interrupted to DUT. Even a flicker in power will cause lamp to go out and stay out.
4. if lamp goes out during testing of car, you have found your problem.


Parts required:
- 4 pin 12volt relay
- 12volt pilot lamp
- normally open push button
- small enclosure to mount it in.

[Papa]

Brother you have a terminator X. Literally every facet is monitored by the computer. Just data log.

A data log will give you a good idea of what's going on. Get a fuel pressure gauge if you don't have one. I personally like the Holley fuel pressure sensor connected to the ecu, that way you can see it on the data log.

It's really difficult to capture a log of an intermittent issue, but I was data logging last week when it happened. When I pulled the data log, it was basically empty. I suspect it was likely too large (25+ minutes). I'll keep trying to capture an example.

I have a fuel pressure gauge, and it is reading 43 psi, which is what Jim specified. I'll look at the sensor one that can let me see it on the computer.

[Papa]

Dave,

Sorry to hear about the troubles. I have the same configuration (Inglese 8 stack) but I have the Terminator X setup. I haven't hit first start yet so I can't help you, but I am watching the thread as it probably impacts me as well.

Dan

Dan,

I wouldn't worry about encountering this issue. My problem started a long time before I swapped over to Jim's setup.

Dave

[Papa]

I wonder if the problem is that relay that powers the coil. I've got the Sniper and have the MSD Blaster coil powered directly by the EFI or Coil wire - no relay.

I have changed the relay, but I'm considering pulling power direct and bypassing the relay circuit. The wiring harness and relay are the only common items that were in both setups on my car while this issue has been present.

[RJD]

I've reviewed some old notes on powering the coil and it said a relay isn't necessary unless you're running breaker points, have resistance wiring or a ballast resister in the coil positive wiring. Worth a shot to try it without the relay. Good luck.

[rich grsc]

The ECU and MSD box should both be powered directly from the battery. Both have trigger wires to turn on when the ignition is switched to 'hot in run, and start'. NO other relay is needed.
Not sure if that is the problem, but it appears to be a power supply issue?

[weendoggy]

I'm going to jump back in on this because this has happened to me several times over the last few years. You say you're using the Dual Sync distributor, so am I (8 yrs), and has failed three times, noted on the Holley forum. My first Dual Sync went almost five years before it started the "issue" which you seem to have. The only way you're going to capture the issue is with a System Log, not Datalog. You can have this run without timing the session. With the datalog, you have to stop it before it quits or you lose it. I spent a lot of time the first time this happened and, like you, had it do it occasionally and then be fine. However, once it goes for good, you're done! Holley (MSD) has told me they did an upgrade to the circuit board in late 2023 and I'll wait and see how that goes, if it fails again, I'm going crank trigger. All these additonal doo-dah's are not necessary to find your problem, except for maybe putting a transducer on the fuel system to monitor fuel pressure. I have one and it's very useful. That will show on the datalog.

I run a 6AL-2 and regular MSD Blaster coil and have done so for over 20yrs. I doubt it's either of those causing your problem. If you have your wiring the same as it's been and done correctly, I doubt that's the issue as well. You need to diagnose the problem. One thing you can do, and this has to be done when it goes haywire and will not start (if that happens) is to remove the cap and watch the LED's flash. The crank LED flashes eight times to one for the cam each rotation. If either is not right (I'd be watching the crank LED) it will be obvious. My first one was the crank sensor and it didn't flash at all, and the second time it happened, it just stayed lit. Both were failures.

[Papa]

I'm going to jump back in on this because this has happened to me several times over the last few years. You say you're using the Dual Sync distributor, so am I (8 yrs), and has failed three times, noted on the Holley forum. My first Dual Sync went almost five years before it started the "issue" which you seem to have. The only way you're going to capture the issue is with a System Log, not Datalog. You can have this run without timing the session. With the datalog, you have to stop it before it quits or you lose it. I spent a lot of time the first time this happened and, like you, had it do it occasionally and then be fine. However, once it goes for good, you're done! Holley (MSD) has told me they did an upgrade to the circuit board in late 2023 and I'll wait and see how that goes, if it fails again, I'm going crank trigger. All these additonal doo-dah's are not necessary to find your problem, except for maybe putting a transducer on the fuel system to monitor fuel pressure. I have one and it's very useful. That will show on the datalog.

I run a 6AL-2 and regular MSD Blaster coil and have done so for over 20yrs. I doubt it's either of those causing your problem. If you have your wiring the same as it's been and done correctly, I doubt that's the issue as well. You need to diagnose the problem. One thing you can do, and this has to be done when it goes haywire and will not start (if that happens) is to remove the cap and watch the LED's flash. The crank LED flashes eight times to one for the cam each rotation. If either is not right (I'd be watching the crank LED) it will be obvious. My first one was the crank sensor and it didn't flash at all, and the second time it happened, it just stayed lit. Both were failures.

Great info, as always. The Dual Sync was added with the stacks, so not in the mix when the "issue" started. I'll have to read up on how to do a system log vs. data log.

[weendoggy]

Great info, as always. The Dual Sync was added with the stacks, so not in the mix when the "issue" started. I'll have to read up on how to do a system log vs. data log.

What Holley ECU are you using? HP, Terminator X? A new ECU had to be installed as the Sniper uses a simple attached one. Terminator X wiring might be modified to plug into the DS, provided you have the 565-202 (SBF) which uses one 10pin plug with just 4 wires being used. I'm using the HP. Also look for B20 supplying a clean 12v signal to the ignition instead of keyed A10. This usually has to be changed at the ECU P1B plug. Not positive on how Terminator X does a system log (if it does) but the HP is done via the logging menu on the PC and just change it to do a System Log.

[Papa]

What Holley ECU are you using? HP, Terminator X? A new ECU had to be installed as the Sniper uses a simple attached one. Terminator X wiring might be modified to plug into the DS, provided you have the 565-202 (SBF) which uses one 10pin plug with just 4 wires being used. I'm using the HP. Also look for B20 supplying a clean 12v signal to the ignition instead of keyed A10. This usually has to be changed at the ECU P1B plug. Not positive on how Terminator X does a system log (if it does) but the HP is done via the logging menu on the PC and just change it to do a System Log.

I have the Terminator X and the harness from the 550-936 kit. I needed a different injector harness (558-212 - Ford EV6 injector) to match the ones Jim uses, but everything else was plug and play, including the distributor connector.

You can see all the components laid out in this post: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post491818

[weendoggy]

I have the Terminator X and the harness from the 550-936 kit. I needed a different injector harness (558-212 - Ford EV6 injector) to match the ones Jim uses, but everything else was plug and play, including the distributor connector.

You can see all the components laid out in this post: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post491818

If it came like that, great. DS uses a 10pin connector and most Terminator X harness's are with crank/cam separate, but looking at what you have, good. Either way, as long as it works. I'd still check the 12+ feed from B20 to feed the ignition (distributor), it's a much cleaner signal and not have to worry about keyed switch 12v. I doubt this is your issue, but something to think about. I did d/l the Terminator X software and from what I see, it doesn't show a method for a System Log. I guess it relys on the LED's on the ECU and if that's the case, from what I've read, the crank LED would go red if it looses signal, which is what it's looking for in RPM. If that's all you have for troubleshooting, I hope you have a way to view it, or you capture it during a datalog and hope it shows a glich without losing the entire file. When I was doing my troubleshooting, I could never "make it" stumble to test, just had to capture it.

[bobl]

You can setup data logging to trigger with numerous inputs. I have mine set up to trigger at 75% tps, so every time I exceed that it generates a data log. Have to delete them pretty often, LOL.

[Papa]

You can setup data logging to trigger with numerous inputs. I have mine set up to trigger at 75% tps, so every time I exceed that it generates a data log. Have to delete them pretty often, LOL.

Interesting. I'll look into that. Thanks, Bob.

[danmas]

Dave,

Any luck on the stalls?

Dan

[SJDave]

I had the same issue on my car a few years ago. Turned out the MSD 6AL ignition was going bad. It would do the same thing as yours, just stop running, pull over, restarts. It started happening more and more and then one day it would not restart. Easy to diagnose once it failed, no spark!
Sent it into MSD for repair and they fixed it for free even though it was 7 years old.

Good Luck!
Dave