Pat's MK4 Build Thread Spencerport, NY - On to the IRS

[PMD24]

Running a little late on starting my build thread. I was too anxious to get started on the project so doing this got put off. Kit arrived 10/31/24 by Stewart Transport. The driver, Mark, was great. A couple neighbors showed up when they saw the truck, my 4-year-old granddaughter helped, and we had the kit unloaded in no time. I built a chassis dolly based on various designs I saw on the forum, so we put the chassis/body directly on the dolly from the truck. Driveway to the shop is stone, maybe 120ft or so. The wheels I used on the dolly didn't work so well on the stone, but we managed to get it inside without no issues.

I did my dolly a bit different. I chose to not notch the bottom 4x4, used fir 4x4's instead of pressure treated, and joined them with timber screws instead of threaded rod, which also eliminated the drilling. It boiled down to buying the timber screws, (2)8ft 4x4's (cut in half), and the casters. I had scrap wood around for the 60" piece, 2x4's on top and bottom, and the plywood bracing. A few photos are below. If anyone wants more info, let me know.

Chassis dolly.jpg

Timber screws1.jpg

Scews2a.jpg

[PMD24]

Also have to show off my "Retirement Shop". Fully retired in May of this year, and in anticipation of that started this project two years ago so I'd have a heated space for winter projects. Started with an existing metal sided, metal roof pole barn. Tore off siding and roof, put on a 22x48 addition, and resided and reroofed all. Radiant slab in the addition. Hired out framing and roofing but did pretty much everything else myself. Took two years, but really happy with the outcome. Still have some finish work and minor electrical to do.

Before:
Before.jpg

After:
after.jpg

Interior:
Interior1.jpg

Interior2.jpg

[PMD24]

Build components (so far): MK4 complete kit, Blueprint 347, steel bellhousing, TKX, hydraulic clutch and TO bearing, IRS, 3.55 center section, touring shocks, 17" wheels, 11.65 brakes, manual steering, heater/defroster kit, seat track kit, wiper kit, vintage gauge set, FF Metal Firewall Forward, Gas-N headers and sidepipes. Planning to add Breeze battery box and various radiator components, driveshaft safety loop, possibly seat mount. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Didn't do struts for trunk. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated as well.

[Mike.Bray]

Build components (so far): MK4 complete kit, Blueprint 347, steel bellhousing, TKX, hydraulic clutch and TO bearing, IRS, 3.55 center section, touring shocks, 17" wheels, 11.65 brakes, manual steering, heater/defroster kit, seat track kit, wiper kit, vintage gauge set, FF Metal Firewall Forward, Gas-N headers and sidepipes. Planning to add Breeze battery box and various radiator components, driveshaft safety loop, possibly seat mount. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Didn't do struts for trunk. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated as well.

Nice build. You should really rethink the manual steering, I was going to go that route but this forum convinced me otherwise. I am soooo glad I went with PS, not only the ease of steering but the increased stability from running more caster. Trust me, you will love it.

I have the trunk struts and love them. Best $50 I spent on this car.

[PNWTim]

That's a great remodel on your shop! I look forward to following your build.

[PMD24]

Completed inventory. Only a few fasteners missing. Plus, a seat track was in the hood hinge box instead of the hinge kit. FFR made everything right very quickly. Only backorder item is the roll bar. Front suspension and brakes are now complete. Despite reading the manual multiple times I ran into issues in a couple of areas. The forum saved me on both counts, but only after spinning my wheels for hours trying to figure out why I couldn't assemble things the way the manual described. My learning from this is that the manual is good, but the forum is better. Read the manual (over and over), but more important, read in the forum before tackling each subassembly.

1) Lower control arm washers. Past forum posts suggested using threaded rod/nuts to adjust frame mounts to get all washers in, one in each instead of two, one in one side and none in the other, none at all, etc. Since welding heat is the likely cause of the differences in the mounts, and there's no way to know which mounts are exactly where they should be, I chose to skip the bending and make both sides the same at one of the washer locations. For the remaining points, washers were added if they fit and left out if they didn't, and I moved on. Hope my approach is ok. Comments welcome.

2) Upper control arm adjusting sleeves. After assembling and disassembling multiple times trying to figure out why I couldn't get close to the rear dimensions in the manual I again turned to the forum and got my answer quickly. Trim the adjusters. Did that and everything worked. Sought out help from FFR techs and the forum on rough alignment dimensions for manual steering. Big thanks to CraigS, Jeff Kleiner, and others for their input and patience as I worked through that. Spent way more time on it than expected but learned a lot. Thinking seriously about investing in some alignment tools. Interesting stuff.

3) Spindles - had to use the double wrench guesstimate method for torquing the upper castle nuts. Also had to add a hardened washer under the upper nut to get better engagement on the cotter pin.

4) F-panels - had to trim the front tip on DS panel and not use screw holes for initial alignment. 3/4" difference from PS

5) Brakes - all went fine there. If someone figured out a better system for those cheesey slider clips used on all brakes, they'd be rich.

6) Hubs - closest loaner 1/2 torque wrench was 35 min away. That was enough of excuse to buy one!

Greased all fittings. On to the IRS

[PMD24]

Nice build. You should really rethink the manual steering, I was going to go that route but this forum convinced me otherwise. I am soooo glad I went with PS, not only the ease of steering but the increased stability from running more caster. Trust me, you will love it.

I have the trunk struts and love them. Best $50 I spent on this car.

Thanks Mike. Will take another look at the struts and do more homework on the power steering. I'm through the front suspension and brakes so wondering if I make that switch now, will there be any rework on what I've done. Also, I just went back to the order form to check out cost. It only refers to $299 for the power steering pump and bracket. Does that mean the manual rack that have is still used and is piped for power?

[Rebostar]

Looks like your gonna have a great car. I would like to ditto what Mike said. After ordering the manual steering I was convinced (by folks here) to upgrade to power steering. As I had already ordered the kit with manual rack and a friend not far from me showed me his Electrical Power Steering installation, thats what I went with. So if you dont want to upgrade to a Power Rack, look into some sort of E-Power Steering. The extra 3.5 degrees of castor is going to help a lot!
Looking forward to following your build....pics please

[gbranham]

If you've trimmed the UCA adjusting sleeves, you're ready for power steering. Those sleeves really only need to be trimmed if you're going with power steering, as you can dial in more caster with them modified. FWIW, my first build, a MkIII with a warmed-over 302 had manual steering. It was fine once you got rolling, but at slow speeds, parking, backing out of parking spots, etc, the manual steering took some effort.

Greg

[PMD24]

Thanks to all for the input on power steering. I'll be digging into that tomorrow with FFR and Blueprint. I'm hoping I can do some swapping since none of the steering components have been installed yet. Will send an update when I learn more. Will also add the trunk struts that Mike Bray encouraged.

Now that I'm getting this build thread caught up with where I am on the build, I'll start to post some pics as things progress.

[PMD24]

In the forum almost daily reading about various things I'm facing soon. Somewhere along the line I came across a thread where Jeff Kleiner recommended sway bars to someone who was doing the IRS and touring shocks like my build. My recall is that, even if my plan is entirely street driving, the sway bars will help significantly with roll when cornering. As best I can tell from reading in the forum, I can still easily do that add on the front (suspension and brakes are complete). Is that correct?

On the rear, I'm planning to start the IRS tomorrow, so I'm wondering if there's anything I need to hold off on there if I'm going to add the rear sway bar.

Thanks,

Pat

[AndrewIdaho]

Hi Pat,

Like you I read the the forum daily to learn what I may be facing as I progress my slow build (MK 4 delivered late July). Also I am not sure if I will need sway bars or not. My reading leads me to believe that the front sway bar kit can be added later relatively easily. The rear sway bar, on the other hand, would require disassembly of the rear IRS suspension to add the the sway bar mounting brackets. Since I have not installed the IRS yet, and following the advice of Paul (edwardb) to add the brackets while doing initial install, I contacted Factory Five and ordered the rear sway bar mounting bracket and longer toe link bolts for about $65 shipped. I received them quite quickly and the brackets are in the items to be powder coated.

Best Regards, Andrew
ps parts ordered:

PN Description Qty
15997 16000-Left Side Swaybar Mount 1
15997 16001-Right Side Swaybar Mount 1
HHBOLT 0.625-11x2.5x1.25-N 5/8 x2.5” Toe Link Bolt 2

[Blitzboy54]

Hello and welcome aboard! What a shop. I live in the Albany area and I am originally from Buffalo.

Reach out anytime and good luck

Go Bills.

[PMD24]

Hi Pat,

Like you I read the the forum daily to learn what I may be facing as I progress my slow build (MK 4 delivered late July). Also I am not sure if I will need sway bars or not. My reading leads me to believe that the front sway bar kit can be added later relatively easily. The rear sway bar, on the other hand, would require disassembly of the rear IRS suspension to add the the sway bar mounting brackets. Since I have not installed the IRS yet, and following the advice of Paul (edwardb) to add the brackets while doing initial install, I contacted Factory Five and ordered the rear sway bar mounting bracket and longer toe link bolts for about $65 shipped. I received them quite quickly and the brackets are in the items to be powder coated.

Best Regards, Andrew
ps parts ordered:

PN Description Qty
15997 16000-Left Side Swaybar Mount 1
15997 16001-Right Side Swaybar Mount 1
HHBOLT 0.625-11x2.5x1.25-N 5/8 x2.5” Toe Link Bolt 2

Thanks for the details Andrew. Will be speaking FFR today and I the very least will order the brackets and bolts.

[PMD24]

Looked forward to diving into the IRS this morning. After 2 hours I had one wheel stud installed and its crooked. Used a Lisle wheel stud installer and an impact wrench. The nut and stud galled. Took over an hour to clean up the threads. Now I'm noticing that visually the stud doesn't look perpendicular to the hub face and on the back side it appears to reflect the same thing. Visually it looks like the inner edge of the head is not seated as close as the outer. I can get a 0.010 feeler gauge under the outer edge and a 0.026 under the inner edge. The installer also marked up the face of the hub.

I also went through the FFR studs and lug nuts and after trying multiple combinations I can't get a single nut and stud to thread together by hand. Studs have tiny dings on threads, apparently from rattling around together in the Dorman box with no packing material. The nuts have specs of what looks like plating slag in the threads. So, several questions:

> I bought the installer based on recommendations from the forum but the one stud didn't go in as easily as anticipated, threads got damaged, and I think it's crooked. Was that a fluke? Should I keep going?
> Do I need to remove the one stud? I tried to pound that one edge into place from the back side, but no luck. If I remove it, can it be reinstalled or do I need to find new.
> Should I be purchasing better quality studs and nuts? Or is trying to chase these with one another acceptable? If the recommendation is to buy better quality, what brands are good quality?

Thanks,

Pat

20241125_130100.jpg20241125_114657 (3).jpg20241125_114637.jpg

[PMD24]

Chased all the studs and nuts and cleaned up all the threads last night. All set with those now. Pulled a second stud into the hub using a breaker bar instead of the impact wrench. Also put a hardened washer under the Lisle tool. Using the washer did prevent the lip on the Lisle installer tool from digging into the hub, and the stud went in well this time. Much better control using the breaker bar. But, I couldn't get it 100% seated. Biggest problem is holding the hub from twisting. So, I dropped off the hubs and studs at a local garage to press the new studs in for me. They will also seat the two that I did.

Great sale at Harbor Freight for Black Friday. Picked up a shop hoist today. Didn't have one and have many other uses for it. Planned on this purchase for engine install but decided to grab it now because I'm planning to use it for a solo install on the differential. Saw posts on that this week (edwardb as I recall).

20241126_151252.jpg

Drilled out rear spindles. Used a low cost 5/8 reamer from Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D89TZK1Z...sin_title&th=1 Worked really well on the aluminum using low speed. Hopefully it will work well on the steel front mount holes of the center section.

20241126_145443.jpg

[Mike.Bray]

If you ever pull the engine out with the body on you'll need to make an extension for the HF 2T hoist from 2" x 2" x 1/4" x 36" RHS. Don't ask me how I know

[PMD24]

If you ever pull the engine out with the body on you'll need to make an extension for the HF 2T hoist from 2" x 2" x 1/4" x 36" RHS. Don't ask me how I know

Thanks. Good to know. Hopefully I won't be facing that!

[PMD24]

Spoke with Factory Five tech regarding the switch to power steering and adding the sway bars. Both easily doable at this stage, and I can return the manual rack so the cost on the steering upgrade is very reasonable. Directed me to send email to sales to get details on return and place orders for both sway bars and power steering. Awaiting response.

Reamer worked great on front mounts of center section. Working solo so I cut off the side of the box and slid the center section out still resting in the foam shipping base. Tipped one side up and slid a Harbor Freight furniture dolly under it. Propped each side up with a piece of 2x4 and reamed both holes in a matter of a few minutes. Planning to roll this under the frame and use the solo lifting method in edwardb's 25th anniversary build thread.

20241126_174422.jpg20241127_143147.jpg

[Mike.Bray]

You will be so glad you went with the power steering. I know I am.

[luey2011]

Hi Pat,

im in greece. I have a mK 4 and am building a Gen 3 coupe right now. I think you met my buddy Eric.

Pm me if you want to get together and talk about your car!

Andy

[PMD24]

You will be so glad you went with the power steering. I know I am.

Thanks Mike. Read through your entire build thread yesterday. So impressed. I took lots of notes and bookmarked many of the links you provided. Thank you for sharing all of the detail.

The more I get into this project, the more I wish I had been exposed to car stuff when I was young. In particular, it would be awesome to have the engine knowledge. One question on the power steering... Can you tell me more about the Breeze centering kit. I'm sure other rookies would be interested as well.

Thanks,

Pat

[PMD24]

Hi Pat,

im in greece. I have a mK 4 and am building a Gen 3 coupe right now. I think you met my buddy Eric.

Pm me if you want to get together and talk about your car!

Andy

Hi Andy, yes I recall your name from my meet with Eric. Will definitely reach out. Happy Thanksgiving!

Pat

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks Mike. Read through your entire build thread yesterday. So impressed. I took lots of notes and bookmarked many of the links you provided. Thank you for sharing all of the detail.

The more I get into this project, the more I wish I had been exposed to car stuff when I was young. In particular, it would be awesome to have the engine knowledge. One question on the power steering... Can you tell me more about the Breeze centering kit. I'm sure other rookies would be interested as well.

Thanks,

Pat

The Breeze kit replaces the rubber bushings in the rack mount with machined pieces of aluminum that have the hole off center. Turning them moves the rack one direction or the other to get it precisely centered. Helps to eliminate bump steer.

https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/of...ter-and-coupe/

[jengum]

My complete MK4 kit arrived on Halloween around 10AM the same day as yours. Mark said he had one more stop in NY before heading to Ohio, that was you in Spencerport. Mark was great and helped with getting everything in the garage. I just finished up with inventory and got the body hung from my garage ceiling and staged all my components in the loft above my garage. I'm from the Buffalo area and now residing in Capital District. Trying to figure out how to update my profile but I think I know who to PM. Best wishes with your build...Jen.

[PMD24]

The Breeze kit replaces the rubber bushings in the rack mount with machined pieces of aluminum that have the hole off center. Turning them moves the rack one direction or the other to get it precisely centered. Helps to eliminate bump steer.

https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/of...ter-and-coupe/

Thanks Mike. Will check it out further. No word back from FFR sales on the steering change. Will check in with them again on Monday.

[PMD24]

My complete MK4 kit arrived on Halloween around 10AM the same day as yours. Mark said he had one more stop in NY before heading to Ohio, that was you in Spencerport. Mark was great and helped with getting everything in the garage. I just finished up with inventory and got the body hung from my garage ceiling and staged all my components in the loft above my garage. I'm from the Buffalo area and now residing in Capital District. Trying to figure out how to update my profile but I think I know who to PM. Best wishes with your build...Jen.

Thank you. Same to you. Let me know if you plan to do a build thread and I'll follow along. Also, if you are ever in the area and want to stop in and compare what we are doing/not doing, please reach out. I'm pretty sure that once you've hit 20 posts, you'll be able to edit your profile.

[PMD24]

Power Steering Upgrade Question - spoke with FFR this morning and the recommendation on the upgrade is to buy from local auto parts for lower cost, no shipping, and no return shipping on the manual rack. They said to ask for an 87-93brack plus the line kit. FFR price is $299, but for that price the manual rack needs to be returned (no credit) because it's part of the complete kit. So rough cost will total out around $400.

Started at NAPA. They were $131 plus $86 core and couldn't provide any info on the line kit. There were also questions on length, 1 vs 2 pc mounting bushings, and rod ends.

Went to Advance Auto - $156 plus $105 for Cardone "performance", $129 plus $105 for Cardone "standard", performance vs standard were different lengths. $73 for pump to gear line. Hose-type return.

O'Reily details below:

MasterPro 101-0106 $107 plus $20 core = $127
• Warranty: Limited Lifetime Warranty
• Unit of Measure: Each
• UPC: # 884548879966
• Hardware Included: Yes
• New Or Remanufactured: Remanufactured
• Rack Length (in): 45-1/4 Inch
• Total Turns Lock To Lock: 3 Turn
• Input Shaft Diameter (in): 3/4 Inch
• Number Of Mounting Holes: 2
• Gasket Or Seal Included: Yes
• Outer Tie Rods Included: No
• Distance Between Mounting Holes (mm): 393mm
• Input Shaft Diameter (mm): 18mm
• Input Shaft Length (mm): 60mm
• Pressure Port Thread Size: 9/16-18 Inch
• Rack Length (mm): 1149mm
• Inner Tie Rods Included: Yes

MasterPro 101-0107 $124 plus $105 core = $229
• Unit of Measure: Each
• UPC: # 60199212868
• Hardware Included: No
• New Or Remanufactured: Remanufactured
• Total Turns Lock To Lock: 3 Turn
• Number Of Mounting Holes: 2
• Weight: 14.79 Lbs.
• Outer Tie Rods Included: No
• Distance Between Mounting Holes (mm): 393mm
• Input Shaft Diameter (mm): 19mm
• Input Shaft Length (mm): 50mm
• Pressure Port Thread Size: 9/16-18 Inch
• Rack Length (mm): 1143mm
• Return Port Thread Size: 5/8-18 Inch
• Inner Tie Rods Included: Yes
• Hydraulic Or Electric: Hydraulic
• Mounting Bushings Included: Yes

Would appreciate any input or guidance anyone has to offer, any good or bad experience with any of the above aftermarket products, need for extenders, etc. There's also the option to pay the premium to get the complete power setup from FFR and return the manual rack.

Thanks,

Pat

[PMD24]

Made the decision to purchase the power steering kit from FFR. Once I factored in the lines, extenders, adapter, etc, it wasn't much more cost and I'll know that I have everything I need for my first time through that. Also ordered the Breeze centering kit that Mike Bray recommended. Got that yesterday. New rack should be here tomorrow. Did a lot of reading on manual vs power and like most things, there are differences of opinion. But it seemed like everyone who upgraded to power was glad they did it. Hopefully I'll be in that same camp.

Also added the power steering pump to the Blueprint order. My engine build hasn't even started yet so there was nothing involved in adding that... except $$$.

[PMD24]

I've made some decent progress over the last couple of weeks. Haven't kept up with the updates here because I always pick working on the car versus the computer. Anyway, I'll get caught up with updates on my progress. The updates here probably won't be the same as how things progressed.

I started to research sway bars after reading Jeff Kleiner's recommendation to install them if using the FFR touring suspension, which I have. Seems there's lots of differing opinions on this topic but ultimately, I decided to add the sway bars. Ordered them from FFR along with the power steering rack and the trunk struts suggested by Mike Bray.

Bought this awesome little vintage power hacksaw at an auction a year or so ago. The fella selling it was there, elderly, probably late 80's. He was a machinist and restoring this saw was the first retirement project he did in his home shop. It's an amazing piece of equipment, raising the saw blade on each return stroke and using a set of double tooth cogs to incrementally lower the blade to maintain cutting pressure.

Used it for the first time to trim the front UCA adjustment sleeves.

Vintage Power Hacksaw LR.jpg

[danmas]

That looks amazing. I love tools. Was it fun to use?

[Mike.Bray]

I remember my father having a powered hacksaw although it wasn't as heavy duty as yours. He used the hell out of it.

[Rebostar]

I love that saw. Where can I find one!! I hit all the auto swap meets looking for cool old tools. Great score! I ended up with the Harbor Frieght power saw. Local pick up. Northern Tool "Klutch" saw was the same as the HF except white paint and added shipping.

[PMD24]

That looks amazing. I love tools. Was it fun to use?

It's something else to watch it do its thing. Lifts the blade on the return stroke, automatically adjusts as the cut is made to maintain pressure on the cutting stroke, and stops the cut when complete. I'm reading about posting videos here and will post one of it working.

[PMD24]

I remember my father having a powered hacksaw although it wasn't as heavy duty as yours. He used the hell out of it.

Since I picked this up at auction I've been focused on building my shop so this is the first that I've used it. I also used it to trim the rear IRS spindle. It's definitely going to be a go-to for all metal cutting. One thing I really like about it, is how small it is. Yet, it can cut up to 6" x 6"!

[PMD24]

I love that saw. Where can I find one!! I hit all the auto swap meets looking for cool old tools. Great score! I ended up with the Harbor Frieght power saw. Local pick up. Northern Tool "Klutch" saw was the same as the HF except white paint and added shipping.

Thanks. It's definitely an old treasure. Not sure that you can find one. Maybe try the machinery restoration groups and sites. I was just fortunate to stumble on to it at a small online auction that was nearby. Most all auctions are now online (HiBid, Level, etc) Problem is this thing would be a fortune to ship. Even though it's quite small, it's way heavier than it looks. I think it's going to be a tough search. It was patented in the 1914 timeframe and introduced in 1922.

Check back. I'm going to try to post a video of it working on the IRS cuts.

[gbranham]

The Breeze kit replaces the rubber bushings in the rack mount with machined pieces of aluminum that have the hole off center. Turning them moves the rack one direction or the other to get it precisely centered. Helps to eliminate bump steer.

https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/of...ter-and-coupe/

I thought this kit was really only needed on pre-MkIV frames. Maybe I'm wrong.

[PMD24]

Attempting to paste a video of the 102 year old hacksaw in action on the UCA adjusting sleeve.

https://youtube.com/watch/HAexjUtgSC0

Ok, so I made the "watch" change to the URL, but it still posts as a link. Trying again:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HAexjUtgSC0

[PMD24]

Trying again using the instructions posted by Blitzboy54 on 9/15/24

[PMD24]

Thanks for the patience with my figuring out how to embed videos. Thank you to Blitzboy54 for the instructions posted in the forum. Here's another video of the Racine Junior tackling the ear on the IRS spindle.