What do you guys make of this and suggest?
I had installed FFR Lower Control Arms a few months ago. My cousin drove the car briefly to see how it pulled and felt. I noticed it was sitting very low. Once back at the shop I saw the car was sitting ~1-1.5” lower than when it had the donor LCAs in so I had him adjust the car back up to height. I drove the car home (~15miles) from my cousins shop after doing a red-neck alignment. It didn’t feel out of alignment however I still planned to get an alignment. I haven’t driven it since.
I was under the car tonight and noticed inner rim damage that I am pretty sure wasn’t there before. (Weights had been moved by the last owner after he poked a curb and needed to rebalance the tire but fairly certain the gouges were not there before.
The upper a-arms (at the ball joint) are real close to the rim. I’m concerned it’s coming from the UCAs coming into contact with the rim. Maybe when he took it for a ride when it was sitting low?
I am thinking this was from the large amount of negative camber which caused the UCA to contact the rim.
Take the wheel off and look for corresponding witness marks on control arms etc.
Mk.4 FFR supplied Right hand drive
Received 12/2012 completed 12/2019
Gen1 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS
Lots of mods to make compliant for Australian design rules
You say you changed the lower control arms. What about the UCA? What are you using for hubs? If your parts are compatible, the control arms should not be anywhere near the wheel. How close to vertical is the hub at rest? (i.e. with no load on it)
Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
Complete kit / 2015 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS / Wilwood brakes / Mid-Shift mod / Power Steering / Heater and Seat Heaters / RT turn signal / Breeze radiator shroud and mount
You say you changed the lower control arms. What about the UCA? What are you using for hubs? If your parts are compatible, the control arms should not be anywhere near the wheel. How close to vertical is the hub at rest? (i.e. with no load on it)
Uppers are FFR. Spindles are donor with the FFR Spacer. Spoke to FFR before doing the swap. Shared pictures and had a good convo and was told the lower tubular LCAs were a direct swap.
I’m pretty sure this damage came from taking it for a drive while it was sitting too low. My wife’s cousin (has a custom shop, I was skeptical and looks like for good reason) did the swap and called to say “it’s ready”. When I got there I noticed it was so low the tires were almost hitting the body. He hadn’t noticed and drove it to check alignment. I had him crank it up back to where it sat height wise before.
I’m going to arrange an alignment this coming week.
I think he may have damaged the hub seals doing the re and re as well.
I had him install the rear bumper to and that’s got to come off and be redone.
Needless to say I think I’ll be looking for another guy to pull my wrench’s or try to get the time to perform more myself.
I see some slight scraping in pic#4. Possibly from the ball joint plate on the UCA. Also possibly from something that only happens w/ the steering fully turned. Look at the suspension per Nigel's recommendation. Depending what you find a 1/4" thick wheel spacer may be all you need. And yes find someone who is observant enough to look at the car and notice it is grossly low.
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
Doc, not likely from riding too low or the new control arms. That is the contact point with donor lower control arms without rack limiters installed. If you have the have the old arms look along the back lower edge of the arm.
Norm
Mk4 base kit 7721, 331 Stroker, Holley Sniper EFI, Wipers, Heater, Whitby Soft Top, Drop trunk mod and more
Doc, not likely from riding too low or the new control arms. That is the contact point with donor lower control arms without rack limiters installed. If you have the have the old arms look along the back lower edge of the arm.
Norm
Literally sold them last week. I’ll pull the wheel this week when I get a chance
Not a mark on the donor LCA’s. As mentioned I’ll pull the wheel this week to look for witness marking on that UCA. Screenshot 2024-11-25 at 3.25.05 PM.jpeg
So Dan at FFR suggested confirming ride height is per the manual then call them back. I don’t see a suggested ride height but looks like from past posts on the forums it’s 4-5”?
Sound right?
My ride height is presently 3.625” front and 4.25” back.
Given the front was driven ~1 lower, it’s really pointing towards ride height.
Should I raise the front up to 4” ?
Almost positive the ride height was originally 4” before mucking with the LCAs. IMG_0955.jpg
So Dan at FFR suggested confirming ride height is per the manual then call them back. I don’t see a suggested ride height but looks like from past posts on the forums it’s 4-5”?
Sound right?
My ride height is presently 3.625” front and 4.25” back.
Given the front was driven ~1 lower, it’s really pointing towards ride height.
Should I raise the front up to 4” ?
Almost positive the ride height was originally 4” before mucking with the LCAs. IMG_0955.jpg
It can't hurt.
Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
Complete kit / 2015 Coyote / TKO600 / IRS / Wilwood brakes / Mid-Shift mod / Power Steering / Heater and Seat Heaters / RT turn signal / Breeze radiator shroud and mount
4" is fine. While you are at it, count how many threads are visible beyond the adjusters. Left side should equal right side but front and rear are usually different, coilover thread count.jpg
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
4" is fine. While you are at it, count how many threads are visible beyond the adjusters. Left side should equal right side but front and rear are usually different, coilover thread count.jpg
I had a look at the build book too and there isn’t much useful info in there other than page 90 stating the uppers shouldn’t have more than 1” of thread showing beyond the jam nuts on the adjusting tubes.
Also already confirmed the spindle is mounted in the correct hole-set on the spindle adapter bracket on page 95.
Given I am sitting at 3.625” front, I think I’ll bring it back up to 4” this weekend.
Will cranking it up bring the wheel away from that UCA?
I’d just like to get it a little further away than the current ~3/16” to get it to the alignment shop safely.
I don't think a .375 height change is going to do much but you will see. BTW I had a thought that perhaps while it was partially apart at that shop, there was a weird bunch of angles/clearances between parts that don't happen w/ it fully assembled.
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
I don't think a .375 height change is going to do much but you will see. BTW I had a thought that perhaps while it was partially apart at that shop, there was a weird bunch of angles/clearances between parts that don't happen w/ it fully assembled.
I looked last night. The UCA’s are adjusted at weird angles. Someone here said the front adjuster tubes on both sides should have roughly the same threads showing side to side. Mine are opposite.
So in other words the front on one side has no threads and the front on the other side has ~.5-.75” threads showing. Same goes for the alternative sides.
So the UCAs do not appear to be adjusted properly.
That and the ride height I think is still too low according to FFR recommended ride height is 4.5” and I am sitting 7/8” lower than that.
I looked last night. The UCA’s are adjusted at weird angles. Someone here said the front adjuster tubes on both sides should have roughly the same threads showing side to side. Mine are opposite.
So in other words the front on one side has no threads and the front on the other side has ~.5-.75” threads showing. Same goes for the alternative sides.
So the UCAs do not appear to be adjusted properly.
That and the ride height I think is still too low according to FFR recommended ride height is 4.5” and I am sitting 7/8” lower than that.
If that's the case you've got positive caster one side and negative on the other! Before you start making all of the changes that you've been talking about it would probably be best to get the car correctly set up as a baseline with proper ride heights, corner weight and alignment.
If that's the case you've got positive caster one side and negative on the other! Before you start making all of the changes that you've been talking about it would probably be best to get the car correctly set up as a baseline with proper ride heights, corner weight and alignment.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff
Would you recommend doing the re-re with the rear end for my rear end rebuild and the rear disc conversion and sending it for an alignment afterwards or would you recommend getting the height adjusted and getting it to my alignment shop first?
I recommend finding someone that knows something about cars to give you a hand. You seem to struggle with the most basic of issues. Not trying to be rude, just truthful
Mrk III, 331 stroker, Borla stack injection, T5, 3:55 IRS, Power steering and brakes. Kleiner body & paint
I recommend finding someone that knows something about cars to give you a hand. You seem to struggle with the most basic of issues. Not trying to be rude, just truthful
I think you just need to sit on your fingers instead of typing sometimes Rich. Not trying to be rude, just truthful.
I recommend finding someone that knows something about cars to give you a hand. You seem to struggle with the most basic of issues. Not trying to be rude, just truthful
Rich as I know you've noticed I normally do not respond to you....for good reason.
I have taken some time to try to word this as politely as possible.
As usual thanks for the unwavering lack of support Rich.
I have read some of your posts from years past that are questions just as ignorant, if not more IMO, as mine. The build book is vague (you are well aware of that as I have seen in your years past posts) and most of us are not Mechanics, we all know that which is why these forums have such high traffic and a valid reason many Mechanics and alignment shops will not touch FFR's and kits.
There's a reason I tend to not respond to your posts Rich which sucks for me to not acknowledge someone. A majority of the time they are unnecessarily rude. I would recommend reflecting on that for a moment. As I tried to politely say to you before, if you don't have anything useful to provide, please feel free to not respond. Time is money for you and I both (well me anyways) and wasting everyone's time with negative comments all the time is, well...........Guys like you make this experience a little less enjoyable. Trying to be part of a community just like you are.
Some guys respond when they know or have time and some just offer useful suggestions. But not you. There's all too often a negative undertone.
And just so you know the LCAs were installed by a custom shop that was recommended in our community out here on the West Coast. This is where this damage came from to begin with. I am trying to rectify their mistakes. This is what "finding someone that knows something about cars to give you a hand" can get you hence the term "you want something done right, do it yourself".
Remember Rich we are all learners at some point/level and unless your posts are respectful, I'll no longer respond.
I feel bad for you that it makes you feel good to belittle people.
I hope you are able to resolve whatever it is that makes you so unhappy.
Me on the other hand am still thrilled to own a life long dream and be connected with so many good people here so willing to help. Koodos to those that add value.
Not trying to be rude, just truthful......with respect
Sorry the both of you only only look at a negative view. He is struggling and having someone local would be a help. Thats just the simple truth, it's not rude.
Mrk III, 331 stroker, Borla stack injection, T5, 3:55 IRS, Power steering and brakes. Kleiner body & paint
Doc, looking carefully at your pictures in the original post has me seriously concerned. Your upper control arms are adjusted exactly opposite to the way required to get the correct caster for power steering.
Try this. Loosen the clevis bolts on both sides of control arm. Adjust the front arm so that you have 1 inch of threads showing at both ends. Adjust the rear arm in as much as possible while avoiding interference between the front arm and the spring. I have a magnetic digital level and stick it to the rotor . Try to adjust so that the rotor is angled in at the top 0.5 degrees. The rear arm will be adjusted almost all the way in.
This will get you to a drivable starting point for alignment unless your car is bent.
To Rich’s point, a person familiar with FFR roadsters would know this basic setup,
Norm
Mk4 base kit 7721, 331 Stroker, Holley Sniper EFI, Wipers, Heater, Whitby Soft Top, Drop trunk mod and more
Doc, looking carefully at your pictures in the original post has me seriously concerned. Your upper control arms are adjusted exactly opposite to the way required to get the correct caster for power steering.
Try this. Loosen the clevis bolts on both sides of control arm. Adjust the front arm so that you have 1 inch of threads showing at both ends. Adjust the rear arm in as much as possible while avoiding interference between the front arm and the spring. I have a magnetic digital level and stick it to the rotor . Try to adjust so that the rotor is angled in at the top 0.5 degrees. The rear arm will be adjusted almost all the way in.
This will get you to a drivable starting point for alignment unless your car is bent.
To Rich’s point, a person familiar with FFR roadsters would know this basic setup,
Norm
Thanks Norm
I’ll get the wheels pulled this weekend and get some better pictures
A process for you; But first set your ride heights and count threads so left = right. BTW anywhere between 4-4.5" is OK. I have always thought 4.5" looks too high but that is just personal preference. Here is a pic posted by Jeff K that will get you in the ball park w/ UCA settings. Jeff Kliener UCA specs.png
Remember that the UCAs are the same for both sides. So one side will have the welded piece to the rear of the ball joint and the other side will have the welded piece to the front. W/ all the other stuff you have going on I'd skip the pro alignment for now. Set the UCAs. Check camber w/ a carpenter square or anything you can sit on the floor and end up w/ a vertical leg. I say use a square vs an angle measurer because that gets you away from having to be sure your floor is level. Car on the ground, slide your square against the tire at the bottom so it is vertical looking both from the front and from the side and is centered on the wheel. Look for the vertical to be maybe 3/8" away from the tire sidewall at the top. That will give you close enough for now on camber. If you need to adjust to get the 3/8", turn both the UCA front sleeve and rear sleeves the same amount. Put a piece of tape as a marker on each sleeve so you can do this 1/4 turn at a time. Get the left side square to tire gap the same as the right. At this point Jeff's dimensions, maybe modded slightly, get your caster close, and the tire gap gets your camber close. Now center the steering wheel and figure a way w/ pieces of wood trim or angle iron to approximate this toein tool. https://www.longacreracing.com/shop....Standard-Style
It is a little easier w/ 2 tape measures but one will do. You want to be measuring above the tire bulge, maybe 3-3.5" off the floor. Set the toe-in to 1/16" to 1/8". This is not going to be a perfect alignment but it will be close enough to drive it, and more importantly at the moment, to see where the possible interference is.
FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.
... Here is a pic posted by Jeff K that will get you in the ball park w/ UCA settings. Jeff Kliener UCA specs.png
NO! That won't work in Doc's case Craig. He has Mustang spindles and the photo is for a Mk4 with FFR spindles with power steering so the uppers are installed in the horizontal mounts (or should be...although the more he tells us about what he's finding the more questionable the build of the car becomes) and the spindle offset is different so the dimensions will not be the same as the photo.
NO! That won't work in Doc's case Craig. He has Mustang spindles and the photo is for a Mk4 with FFR spindles with power steering so the uppers are installed in the horizontal mounts (or should be...although the more he tells us about what he's finding the more questionable the build of the car becomes) and the spindle offset is different so the dimensions will not be the same as the photo.
Jeff
That’s why I attached a picture of my spindles and control arm setup. I have Mustang (SN95) spindles which have the same basic control arm setting starting point. They do use different holes on the spindle adapter but, attach to the frame the same way.
Can’t believe the car was safely drivable with the uppers adjusted that way. Must have been super squirrelly. Would have been pretty stable backing up though.
Norm
Mk4 base kit 7721, 331 Stroker, Holley Sniper EFI, Wipers, Heater, Whitby Soft Top, Drop trunk mod and more
That’s why I attached a picture of my spindles and control arm setup. I have Mustang (SN95) spindles which have the same basic control arm setting starting point. They do use different holes on the spindle adapter but, attach to the frame the same way.
Can’t believe the car was safely drivable with the uppers adjusted that way. Must have been super squirrelly. Would have been pretty stable backing up though.
Norm
I plan to do the rear disc conversion and rear end rebuild then just trailer it to the alignment shop. I’ve got an enclosed so think it’s the safest bet at this point.
That’s why I attached a picture of my spindles and control arm setup. I have Mustang (SN95) spindles which have the same basic control arm setting starting point. They do use different holes on the spindle adapter but, attach to the frame the same way.
Can’t believe the car was safely drivable with the uppers adjusted that way. Must have been super squirrelly. Would have been pretty stable backing up though.
Norm
It most certainly was squirrelly which was why was asking about whether it was the nature of our short wheel bases maybe with power steering and they drive like that or bumper steering or?
I’ll get it sorted out.
Thanks guys.
Doc do you have a picture of the drivers side of your car. Specifically interested in the front tire and wheel well opening. Still bothering me that your control arms were adjusted that way.
Norm
Mk4 base kit 7721, 331 Stroker, Holley Sniper EFI, Wipers, Heater, Whitby Soft Top, Drop trunk mod and more
I test fit the disc brake conversion today so next chance I get the plan is to jack stand it on the hoist and pull the rear end for the rebuild and I’ll also pull the front wheels too. Deal with the UCA at least get them closer to what they “should look like” and do some brake work.
I test fit the disc brake conversion today so next chance I get the plan is to jack stand it on the hoist and pull the rear end for the rebuild and I’ll also pull the front wheels too. Deal with the UCA at least get them closer to what they “should look like” and do some brake work.
Thank you super wierd. I don’t know why all of a sudden some pictures are upside down. Never been a problem before and is totally hit and miss.
The site seems to be hanging up a lot today for me as well.
Lots of changes coming but the color won’t be one of them. Happened to match my bike by fluke.
I just noticed after Danmas fixed these that it’s not a reflection of the spacing around the tire if that’s what you’re wondering?
Must be slightly lifted due to the back end being up in the air.
I’ll try to get a better one in the next few days
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Originally Posted by Al_C
super wierd. I don’t know why all of a sudden some pictures are upside down. Never been a problem before and is totally hit and miss. 