Swapping Tilton MC for Wilwood MC

[EK1965]

Another one for the pile. Wilwood clutch master failure almost immediately and struggling with my rear brake circuit as well. I made the mistake of replacing with the equivalent and can attest to the challenge of getting to the clutch MC but now that I have the technique and scars it'll be easy the next time. My plan is to replace all three with Tilton over the winter, as I hate losing confidence in parts.

[Mike.Bray]

Another Wilwood MC bites the dust.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...er-Replacement

[D-Dubya]

Reposting my experience:

My clutch failed last weekend and I have Wilwoods MCs that I installed even though my friend Mike Bray advised me to put Titons in while the car was still under construction. So, yesterday, I had a slow day at work so I went out and decided to make a go of getting the MC's out. Took me about and hour and a half to get all 3 MC's out with the dash completely off. I did not lower the fuse box, but I can see where that might be helpful. Followed basically the same process you described and, while it was a bit tedious and slow, it wasn't as bad as I had expected. Waiting for new Tilton's to arrive (hopefully tomorrow) to start the process of getting this back together.

A good set of "crowfoot" wrenches would have been very helpful. I would also recommend hiring a very small, very strong trained monkey as it is a tight squeeze through that access panel opening.

I only have about 2500 miles on my MKIV so I was a bit surprised at what I found when I broke down the clutch MC. The seal closest to the pushrod was definitely collapsed and the piston had some major abrasions with matching abrasions on the inside of the bore. The fluid that came out was almost black.

[Windsorpower]

Reposting my experience:

My clutch failed last weekend and I have Wilwoods MCs that I installed even though my friend Mike Bray advised me to put Titons in while the car was still under construction. So, yesterday, I had a slow day at work so I went out and decided to make a go of getting the MC's out. Took me about and hour and a half to get all 3 MC's out with the dash completely off. I did not lower the fuse box, but I can see where that might be helpful. Followed basically the same process you described and, while it was a bit tedious and slow, it wasn't as bad as I had expected. Waiting for new Tilton's to arrive (hopefully tomorrow) to start the process of getting this back together.

A good set of "crowfoot" wrenches would have been very helpful. I would also recommend hiring a very small, very strong trained monkey as it is a tight squeeze through that access panel opening.

I only have about 2500 miles on my MKIV so I was a bit surprised at what I found when I broke down the clutch MC. The seal closest to the pushrod was definitely collapsed and the piston had some major abrasions with matching abrasions on the inside of the bore. The fluid that came out was almost black.

Well I’m decided. Anyone figured out which Tilton works best with a newer Forte clutch setup?

[cv2065]

Well I’m decided. Anyone figured out which Tilton works best with a newer Forte clutch setup?

If you are going to replace the Wilwood clutch MC with the Tilton, you’ll want this one. Forte includes a 13/16” MC with his kit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-75-812U

[D-Dubya]

I have just completed replacement of all 3 MC's in my MKIV. Like FF33rod, my clutch MC failed at 2,500 miles, so I decided to take Mike Bray's advice and change all 3 to Tilton's. When I tore down the Wilwood MC that failed, the fluid that came out of it was completely black and the seal closest to the plunger was completely toast. Additionally, there were major abrasions on the plunger end of the piston and corresponding abrasions in the bore (about 1.5" long).

I purchased the Tilton 75-750U kits because they have the cap included. The Tilton's have -3AN outlets and Wilwood's have 1/8 NPT, so you may have to get -3AN to 1/8 NPT adapter (Earls 968703ERL) if you want to use the existing hardware where the brake line terminates to the MC. Unless you want to change the hose size from the reservoirs, you will also need to get 5/16 to 1/4 hose adapters.

Getting the Wilwood's out was not very difficult but getting the Tilton's in was a PITA to say the least. I removed my dash, which turned out to be necessary because you have to go at his from the cockpit and through the access panel. I did this by myself, but for this project two sets of hands is better than one. The most difficult part for me was getting the clutch and middle MC's plungers threaded back into the clevis. Obviously, the clutch is the most difficult because it is the hardest to reach through the access panel. The caps on the Tilton's are much taller and you have to put the hose on before installing, which makes things a little tighter. And don't forget to cut 5/8" off the plungers, just like the Wilwood's. Ask me how I know...

This is not a project you want to tackle when the car is completed but it is doable if you have a lot of patience.

Doug

[OB6]

Nice work Doug. At least you got 2500 miles out if your MC. I got exactly zero miles out of mine. Defective out of the box. I didn't pursue returning it, but rather went down to Summit and picked up three Tiltons. Luckily I didn't have the body on.

[CraigS]

Doug, I now have a 2019 Stingray. I kept reading about the 'Ranger method' of changing the clutch MC fluid. I kept thinking for the first 3 years, heck it's a new car, how could the fluid be bad. Finally decided to change it. I was appalled at the fluid, black as could be. The 'Ranger method' involves sucking the MC dry, filling w/ new fluid. Slowly actuate the clutch 15-20 times. Suck it dry, new fluid, repeat. It took 7 cycles before I got the fluid to stay clear. Now I do that every spring. Apparently these internal slave cylinders are not the hot setup even if they do eliminate a clutch throwout lever.

[SJDave]

I had one of the Wilwoods leak after 300 miles; After getting it out (4 hour project) it had a big "pit" in the bore. The pit had chewed up the seal. I went with the Tilton 76 series, about $40 more per MC, no leaks in 15 years. As was stated earlier the bores are polished and Hard Anodized with a steel piston. They are beautiful!

Dave Tabor brings up a good point about losing all braking due to the balance bar setup, this is a much bigger issue that needs a solution. Anyone done it??

[Fman]

I had one of the Wilwoods leak after 300 miles; After getting it out (4 hour project) it had a big "pit" in the bore. The pit had chewed up the seal. I went with the Tilton 76 series, about $40 more per MC, no leaks in 15 years. As was stated earlier the bores are polished and Hard Anodized with a steel piston. They are beautiful!

Dave Tabor brings up a good point about losing all braking due to the balance bar setup, this is a much bigger issue that needs a solution. Anyone done it??

Dave, what bore size did you go with with the 76 series? Is this a direct bolt up with all fittings? I am on my second Wildwood MC (first one failed at 2k miles) now have 7k miles on the car. I am thinking of just swapping to the Tilton because loosing a clutch MC is a recipe for broken down and being stranded.

[JJK]

I am in the process of swapping now. The Tilton 75 series is more similar to the Wilwoods, but uses a -3 fitting instead of an AN for the pressure side. It also uses a different size hose for the reservoirs which will have to be accounted for. The 76 series has two high pressure ports, so one may need to be capped and it requires a fitting for the reservoir hose as it is different as well. Look up the specs on Tiltons website to see which you would prefer. I am going with the 75 series, but the 76 can be made to work as well.

[Smiley]

I am in the process of swapping now. The Tilton 75 series is more similar to the Wilwoods, but uses a -3 fitting instead of an AN for the pressure side. It also uses a different size hose for the reservoirs which will have to be accounted for. The 76 series has two high pressure ports, so one may need to be capped and it requires a fitting for the reservoir hose as it is different as well. Look up the specs on Tiltons website to see which you would prefer. I am going with the 75 series, but the 76 can be made to work as well.

What size bore did you go with? .75?

[JJK]

I am using 0.75 for all three as that is what I had and were fine. some use slightly different bores, which trades off the amount of pressure applied by your foot with the distance you must press the pedal.

[BUDFIVE]

JJK, the Tilton 75 series uses 3AN output vs the Wilwood is 1/8 NPT.

I’ve been looking at this too since I’m still in go-cart phase and this plus other threads have me thinking.
The 0.75 bore 75 series Tilton MC is 75-750 (75-750U for the kit). The 75-750U kit comes with a 3AN Male to 3AN Male fitting, a remote reservoir adapter and 5/16” hose, and other stuff for their reservoir. Tilton’s website has a good instruction sheet with the kit parts (and part #’s). And by the way a good video on balance bar adjustment. Summit has all the parts individually or the kit.

[JJK]

BUDFIVE, correct on all points. Meant to say -3AN instead of NPT. D-Dubya just went through this and pointed me to the adapters needed to convert the -3AN to 1/8 NPT as well as the 1/4" hoses to 5/16". Here they are for reference:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-968703ERL
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ICB-AN627-05-04A

[BUDFIVE]

An additional option for the input side is replace the fitting at the bottom of the FFR brake reservoirs with a Dorman 787-046D 5/16 barb X 1/8 NPT 90 deg. Then you can run the new 5/16 lines all the way to the larger, 5/16 Tilton inputs. I did mine using these today.
Link for reference https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c...787-046D&pos=0

[JJK]

I completed the Wilwood to Tilton MC swap for all three master cylinders and thought I would post some pics of what I found. My car has about 750 miles and had no signs of premature failure, I just wanted to change them due to so many Wilwoods failing recently that were shipped around the same time as my kit. Last thing I wanted to deal with was a failed brake MC. First, the front seal closest to the pushrod is a bit smaller in diameter on all three pistons than the rear seal, positioned front on the left, rear in the middle, and clutch on the right. It is just barely larger than the piston diameter, so I imagine a little bit of wear and these could easily fail.

MC_pistons.jpg

They also appear smaller than what Wilwood shows for their rebuild kits.

MC_rebuild.jpg

Here is a pic pf my reservoirs. For some reason, the fluid in my clutch reservoir (far left) is darker than the brake fluid in the other two. I suspect this could be due to some rubber seal failure for the clutch MC.

reservoirs.jpg

Anyhow, the swap was not terribly fun, but I consider it preventative maintenance for a component that has recently been prone for premature failure.

[cdurbin328]

Another failure here. 1000 miles since build completion and both brake MC's have failed. A little dissapointed with FFR's tech support. Called them and was told "this is the first I'm hearing about this. You'll have to call Wilwood".
Called Wilwood and got the runaround. Was supposed to call me back and that was over a week ago. No call. I decided to just order the Tilton 75's and move on. Planning to try and tackle this job over the weekend. Not looking forward to it at all.
I really don't want to pull the dash. I'm going to pull the drivers seat and drop the fuse box. Hopefully that will give me enough room.