Pat's MK4 Build Thread Spencerport, NY - Pro-M Hanger and Pump Install

[PMD24]

I thought this kit was really only needed on pre-MkIV frames. Maybe I'm wrong.

I went back and read the description on the Breeze site and it indicates that it does apply to the MK4. I've noticed with some of their other items they have called it out when it only applies to earlier models. Hopefully Mike will provide his thoughts on your question. Thanks for asking.

[danmas]

The video is marked private…

[PMD24]

The video is marked private…

Thanks for letting me know. Should be public. Will check it out.

Update: just checked YouTube and both videos are public. First time using YT so I don't know what else to check.

[edwardb]

I went back and read the description on the Breeze site and it indicates that it does apply to the MK4. I've noticed with some of their other items they have called it out when it only applies to earlier models. Hopefully Mike will provide his thoughts on your question. Thanks for asking.

I installed the Breeze parts on a Mk3.1 (needed) and on my first Mk4. I wasn't sure they were needed as the centering adjustment put them exactly centered. I didn't install them on my 20th Anniversary Mk4 or the Gen 3 Coupe. No issues and the rack centered perfectly in both cases and both driven a lot of miles. IMO this is one of those mods FF has addressed. Installing them doesn't hurt anything but not sure how it helps.

[PMD24]

I installed the Breeze parts on a Mk3.1 (needed) and on my first Mk4. I wasn't sure they were needed as the centering adjustment put them exactly centered. I didn't install them on my 20th Anniversary Mk4 or the Gen 3 Coupe. No issues and the rack centered perfectly in both cases and both driven a lot of miles. IMO this is one of those mods FF has addressed. Installing them doesn't hurt anything but not sure how it helps.

Thanks. Since I have the part I'll install it. When I do my next build I'll consider skipping it.

[PMD24]

I now have the front and rear sway bars and new power steering rack so back to the front suspension to make a few changes.
> Powder coated the bushing mounting clips for the front sway bar. Installed the bar and re-torqued the lower shock mount bolts. Left the sway bar heim joint bolt just snug for now. Will check the sway bar angle with the car on the ground, make any needed adjustments, and then torque that bolt.
> Disassembled the UCA adjustment sleeves, added some anti-seize, and reset the dimensions per Jeff Kleiner's zerk-to-zerk for power steering; 9.75" front, 8.5" rear. Left pivot bolts just snug for now. Will torque after final alignment.
> Double checked that all bushings and ball joints were greased with Valvoline Red
> Applied witness marks to all torqued bolts

Except for the follow-up items noted, the front suspension is now complete. Back to work on the IRS.

Front Suspension LR.jpg

[PMD24]

I did a solo install on the center section so I'll go through the details and provide some photos that might help others doing solos. As mentioned in a prior post, I left the center section sitting on the foam base it was packed in, cut the side of the shipping box, and slid the foam and center section out. I tipped up on side of the foam and slide a Harbor Freight furniture dolly under it. Rolled that over to the chassis and started to rig things for lifting. Borrowing edwardb's lifting method, I placed four rachet pulleys on the end of my engine hoist and tied short bowline knots on the end of each rope, slid those over the corners of the center section and put temporary bolts in the holes to prevent the bowline loops from slipping off. Using the rachet pulleys I lifted the front to clear the frame and then raised the back until it was level and used all four pulleys to slowly guide it into place. It worked so well I'd recommend it even when extra help is available. You'll see in the photos that as I lifted the center section closer to the mounting bushings I had to remove the temporary bolts. I just screwed bolts into the opposite side of the rear mounting arms so I still had a bolt in place to keep the loop from slipping off. On the front mounting arms I clamped the two front ropes together using a rachet type clamp. That allowed me to remove the temporary bolts without concern about the loops slipping off the arms, and it also pulled the loops away from the mounting points. You can see the end of the blue rachet clamp in one of the last photos.

Center Section Rigged LR.jpg

Center Section Lifting LR.jpg

Center Section In Position LR.jpg

Center Section Installed LR.jpg

[jengum]

Thanks for this. This will definitely be a help to me when I get to my solo install.

[gbranham]

That's a nice job! I also used ratchet straps when I installed mine by myself, but didn't think to bust out my engine hoist. While the ratchet straps made it doable by myself, it was by no means easy. Bet the cherry picker would've made it much less difficult.

Greg

[PMD24]

That's a nice job! I also used ratchet straps when I installed mine by myself, but didn't think to bust out my engine hoist. While the ratchet straps made it doable by myself, it was by no means easy. Bet the cherry picker would've made it much less difficult.

Greg

Here's a photo of the rachet pulleys I used. They can handle 250 lbs each. Obviously, that's not needed here but I wanted the larger 3/8 rope. They're a little more friendly than rachet straps when it comes to releasing them for adjustment down. The downside is there is no mechanical advantage on the lift. However, that could be easily remedied by adding a pulley. Wasn't needed for the weight of the center section. Amazon purchase https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006P39KPM...sin_title&th=1

Rachet Pulley LR.jpg

[PMD24]

Attention newbies. If you are using the (edit: FFR supplied 2015 IRS 11.65 standard brakes. Does not apply to Wilwoods) and haven't read ahead in the manual, supplemental instructions, or forum, you have to do another cut on the rear spindles. People have installed the spindles and discovered that afterward and it results in disassembling everything or making a challenging cut in place. This second cut is in a location where my trusty power hacksaw won't work and I'm definitely not using the sawzall again. That's a bit like performing surgery with a jackknife and leaves you with a mess to cleanup if you want it to look decent.

Years ago I cut an 8" x 3" extruded aluminum handicap stair rail that was too long for the stairs I was installing it on. Cut that on my compound miter saw with an old 40 tooth carbide tipped construction blade. It made a perfectly smooth cut and went through it as easily as a tough piece of hardwood like hickory. I couldn't do this spindle cut on the miter saw but figured why not use the table saw. I had a non-ferrous blade for the saw. It worked great and made a very clean, quick cut. In fact, this is how I'd do all the spindle cuts if I could do them over. Also, if you don't have a non-ferrous blade I wouldn't hesitate to use a carbide tipped wood blade like I used in the miter saw. I'd choose something finer than the 40 tooth mentioned above. Maybe something like an 80 tooth finishing blade.

Here's the cut taking place and a photo of the finished product.



And a shot of the cut after a few minutes of polishing with a small wire brush in a dremel tool. So much better than the other methods I tried.

Table Saw Cut LR.jpg

[PMD24]

... and no that's not blood on the towel in the background . Its red loctite. I stole an idea from someone on the forum. I think it was Johnk. I plugged the two holes on the IRS spindles by tapping them and installing set screws with red loctite. edwardb used a small cover he made, and one screw, which works too.

Set Screw Plugs LR.jpg

[AndrewIdaho]

Attention newbies. If you are doing IRS and haven't read ahead in the manual, supplemental instructions, or forum, you have to do another cut on the rear spindles. .......

Hi Pat,

I follow your build with great interest as you are making great progress, (months ahead of me) and you are very thorough in your documentation of what you are doing which I appreciate.

This post has put me in a bit of a panic as I have assembled the hubs to the spindles but have not installed the spindles yet. In researching this additional cut, after reading your thread, I see the cut documented for the 11.65" IRS brakes but can find nothing with respect to the 12" Wilwood brakes that I ordered with my kit. I have seen a post from Paul (edwardb) that this cut was not needed for the Wilwood brakes. Can someone confirm that I should not remove this additional ear, as I would hate to cut something off that I should not.

Thanks, Andrew

[gbranham]

Hi Pat,

I follow your build with great interest as you are making great progress, (months ahead of me) and you are very thorough in your documentation of what you are doing which I appreciate.

This post has put me in a bit of a panic as I have assembled the hubs to the spindles but have not installed the spindles yet. In researching this additional cut, after reading your thread, I see the cut documented for the 11.65" IRS brakes but can find nothing with respect to the 12" Wilwood brakes that I ordered with my kit. I have seen a post from Paul (edwardb) that this cut was not needed for the Wilwood brakes. Can someone confirm that I should not remove this additional ear, as I would hate to cut something off that I should not.

Thanks, Andrew

Scratching my head, too. I only made one cut on my spindles, and had no interference with the standard 11.65" Mustang rotors and calipers. Ive since upgraded to the bigger Wilwoods. I'm also running 18" Halibrands. Maybe smaller wheels need the 2nd cut. Dunno. ***Edit*** I looked back at my build pics, and I never installed the Mustang calipers on the rear; I upgraded to Wilwoods after I put the 11.65" rotor on the hub and didn't like them. In looking at the supplemental IRS instructions, I see where the top ear for the standard caliper bolt needs to be cut if using the Mustang calipers.

[Blitzboy54]

I just put mine together and needed no additional cut.... curious

[TXeverydayDad]

If you’re using Wilwoods, don’t cut that tab, as it’s the mount for the caliper.

IMG_7383.jpg

[PMD24]

Hi Pat,

I follow your build with great interest as you are making great progress, (months ahead of me) and you are very thorough in your documentation of what you are doing which I appreciate.

This post has put me in a bit of a panic as I have assembled the hubs to the spindles but have not installed the spindles yet. In researching this additional cut, after reading your thread, I see the cut documented for the 11.65" IRS brakes but can find nothing with respect to the 12" Wilwood brakes that I ordered with my kit. I have seen a post from Paul (edwardb) that this cut was not needed for the Wilwood brakes. Can someone confirm that I should not remove this additional ear, as I would hate to cut something off that I should not.

Thanks, Andrew

Andrew, apologies for causing the panic. Folks have clarified below that it doesn't apply to the Wilwoods and I've gone back and edited the post accordingly. I've also gone back and reviewed the manual and the supplemental instructions. They certainly aren't clear about it only applying to the FFR standard IRS 11.65 brakes and I wasn't able to find supplemental instructions on the Wilwoods.

Pat

[PMD24]

If you’re using Wilwoods, don’t cut that tab, as it’s the mount for the caliper.

IMG_7383.jpg

Thank you for clarifying.

[PMD24]

Blitzboy thanks for weighing in. I've edited my post to warn about the second cut not applying to Wilwoods. By the way, those wheels are killer!!

[AndrewIdaho]

No worries Pat, I appreciate the level of detail you are posting and keep up the great work.
Andrew

[PMD24]

Spoke with FFR this morning. Engineering says no snap rings required on Roadster LCA ball joints. They are in the kit because they are required on the hot rod. Thank you to everyone who weighed in on this topic. Definitely pleased to get that confirmation on top of what the pros here advised.

[PMD24]

Still catching up here on where I am with the build.

Applied neverseize on UCA and toe arm adjusters and prepped rear UCA to set rough alignment at 11.5". Original plan to get there was to use a 3ft piece of 1/2" type L copper tube through the mounting bushings and then use a framing square to rough the dimension. The 1/2" tubing is a perfect fit inside the bushing. After verifying that the tubing was straight, I inserted it through the first bushing. But when it hit the second bushing it was a good 1/8" off center; a lot for such a short distance. Went to plan B.

Laid out two parallel lines 15" apart on a piece of cardboard and then set up two lasers on the lines. Placed the arm on the laser line so the laser passed over the approx center of both bushings. I then adjusted the center of the heim joint to the 11.5" rough alignment setting.

Rear UCA laser1 LR.jpg

rear UCA laser2 LR.jpg

Set the dimension on the toe arms per the manual. Snugged up lock nuts on UCA and toe arm adjusters. Greased all bushings with Valvoline Red. The manual called out greasing until the grease came out the flutes along the steel bushing. LCA bushings are not fluted. Others are. LCA did take grease as it should. just not fluted.

[PMD24]

IRS assembly went really well. Arms and shocks went into all frame mounts with no adjustments required. CV axles went in smoothly with a slight tap or two at the end using a plastic dead blow hammer to get the final seating position. Supported the shafts with a kayak strap while attaching the spindles; worked great.

Kayak strap lr.jpg

A couple of valuable learnings here. See the end of that bolt near where I cut off the brake ear? It shouldn't be there! My bad. The instructions do say to remove it before cutting the ear, but when I cut the ear, the hub wasn't installed, so there was no bolt to remove. Then when I put the hub on I just installed all 4 bolts. It needs to be removed because that hole is where the brake support bracket mounts for the standard FFR 11.65 brakes. Luckily the red loctite hadn't cured and the bolt came out easily.

The second learning was about torquing the bolts that secure the hub to the spindle. Working solo I did the first one on the floor, trying to get to the torque value while also trying to hold that odd shaped spindle. Got there, but the wrestling match was a real challenge. 140 lbs of body weight doesn't go very far against the lever arm of a torque wrench! For the second hub I verified I could get the torque wrench on all of the bolts with the single installed, and did the final torquing with the spindle mounted on the car. Pretty obvious now. Wish I would have thought of it for the first one. IRS is complete. Just need to wrap up the rear sway bar.

IRS LR.jpg

[PMD24]

Rear Sway Bar

Had the frame and bushing mounts for the IRS rear sway bar powder coated. Installing those went smoothly. The ears on the frame mounts where the heim joints and bushings connect turned out to be too close together. First attempt at spreading them with threaded rod didn't do much. Given how short the ears are I got uncomfortable with the amount of bending that would be required, having the ears angled out, and subsequent stress on the welds. I measured the heim joint and bushings versus the frame mounts. One side needed about 0.2cm in order to fit; the other about 0.3cm. Using a bench grinder I slowly removed material from the larger bushing for each side, being careful to not add too much heat and regularly quenching. Cleaned up the grinding burrs and installed the heim joints to the frame and sway bar ends. Rear sway bar complete.

Sway bar powder coat LR.jpg

Rear Sway Bar LR.jpg

[PMD24]

Tackled the rear brake calipers. Wow! Like every other time I've done brake pads I wondered why someone hasn't designed a system that improves the clip design. The stock system is the most "unfriendly" I've come across and there are quite a few comments in the forum on how challenging they are to assemble. Some thoughts that might be helpful to others... Once you've measured the pad space in caliper with verniers, added the thickness of two clips, and filed the pad tabs accordingly, install the pad on the side opposite the piston, first. There's better access to hold the clips and position the pad on that side. Tip the pad so the upper edges of the tabs engage against the clips, then slide the bottom of the pad (where the spring is) along the caliper until it's in place. It's also helpful to have an extra set of hands to hold the clips so they don't slide out of place, when inserting the pad tabs. I used a couple of small c-clamps to keep the clips from sliding when I did the first pad.

I pre-assembled the mounting bracket on the spindle and found that the washer that the manual says to install on the upper mounting bolt isn't thick enough to fill the gap between the boss on the spindle and the caliper mounting bracket. The bracket rests on the spindle casting and doesn't contact the washer at all. This raises two concerns for me... if I torque this down will I distort the bracket and consequently end up with the caliper out of alignment with the disk, and second, if I add washers/shims to get good contact with the boss, will the bracket still be parallel to the disk? I ran out of time and will follow up by getting some measurements and providing some follow-up photos with markup. Hope to do that today.

[PMD24]

Getting closer to the point where panel work will ramp up. Check out the awesome Christmas gift from my wife!

Rivit tool LR.jpg

[gbranham]

I was on the fence between Wilwoods and the stock brakes. I went with stockers, but when I had the same experience as you assembling them, I threw them in the trash and went in the house to order Wilwoods. Hah!

[PMD24]

I was on the fence between Wilwoods and the stock brakes. I went with stockers, but when I had the same experience as you assembling them, I threw them in the trash and went in the house to order Wilwoods. Hah!

Good decision. After my experience I finally understood why people pay the crazy price difference. Better braking, but secretly it's really about escaping the stock brake assembly experience

[gbranham]

Good decision. After my experience I finally understood why people pay the crazy price difference. Better braking, but secretly it's really about escaping the stock brake assembly experience

In truth, I didn't need much of a push...I should've ordered the Wilwoods from the get-go, but after trying to cobble together those stock calipers and pads, I had enough. Seriously...are they not the most ridiculous thing? I've done a lot of brakes over the years on a lot of different cars, but those take the cake.

Greg

[PMD24]

For others who might be struggling with these calipers I put the small c-clamps described in post 65 above back on one of the calipers to show where they were placed. Here's a photo. Note that when I actually did the assembly the pad on the piston side wasn't there.

Caliper clip clamps LR.jpg

[PMD24]

Spent several hours today sorting through several issues with one rear brake setup.

Snugged up the bolts on the support bracket and measured the gap where the washer is installed on the upper bolt. There was a 0.046 gap there. No contact at all. The bracket was contacting the spindle casting preventing the bracket from being drawn up tight on the washer and spindle boss.

Feeler gauges in gap at upper bracket bolt:
Bracket washer gap LR.jpg

This is the area where the bracket was contacting the spindle:
Brake contact area LR.jpg

Using a cylinder burr in a dremel tool, the spindle material causing the interference was removed and I was able to get the upper bolt to tighten against the washer and the spindle boss. First issue resolved, but a couple more to go.

[F500guy]

I went straight for the Wilwoods, including electric parking brake. Not cheap but actually pretty easy and adds a little bling....

[PMD24]

Measured the distance to the rotor from the top and bottom of the brake bracket and there was a 0.125" difference. I don't have a dial indicator so I stuck a bolt in the top hole of the mounting bracket and took several feeler gauge measurements of the gap between the end of the bolt and the rotor as I clocked the rotor to numerous positions. Despite being held against the hub with a couple of lug nuts the rotor wasn't sitting on the hub straight.

Rotor clocking LR.jpg


Wasn't sure if it was binding on the studs or the hub but when removed and put on backward it was clear that the interference was at the hub, not the studs. Rough measurement with verniers confirmed the issue. The hub opening in the rotor was 0.015 off round through an arc of around 30 degrees. Worked that area back to round using a fine stone in the dremel, cleaned up the rest of the opening, and repeated clocking the rotor and taking multiple measurements with the feeler gauge. Issue resolved. On to issue 3.

[PMD24]

I wish I had done that earlier but at this point I've cut the ear off the spindle so I'd have to tear the bulk of the IRS apart, buy new spindles, and reassemble. Alot of builds use these brakes, so, I'll systematically work through all the poor quality control, clean up the issues, and move on. Plus documenting the details here will help others.

[PMD24]

On to issue #3. With the mounting bracket properly seated on the upper spindle boss and washer, and the rotor now on the hub and properly seated I measured the distances from the top and bottom of the bracket to the rotor. BIG difference. Top is 2.175 and bottom is 2.050. Assuming it was possible that the caliper mounting points may be designed for a difference I mounted the caliper and was very surprised to see that it was skewed off center in the opposite direction that the bracket was off. In the photo below you can see the nubs on the caliper casting that align with the center of the caliper. The top nub is somewhat centered on the rotor while the bottom is skewed to the right. Interesting because the bottom of the mounting bracket is actually closer to the rotor than the top.

centering nubs lr.jpg

So, since the mounting bracket is off by 0.075 to the right at the bottom mount and the shims used to mount the caliper are 0.075, I added an additional shim to the bottom mount. The result, shown below, looks pretty good, especially considering what I started with. The only problem now is that I used one of the shims needed for the right brake. Maybe that side will be off in the opposite direction and the bottom shim won't be needed. If not, Runnings may have a shim. Runnings has an amazing selection of fasteners and hardware. Tons more than the big box stores and major hardware chains.

calips nubs2 lr.jpg

[gbranham]

You are definitely detail-oriented, I'll give you that!

Greg

[PMD24]

Yeah, left brained anal engineer. As frustrating as these brakes have been, I've enjoyed working through it. And, it's one of those things that I want right, not just ok.

[jengum]

I found another set of FFR instruction for 11.65" rear brakes (8.8 axle) that show to trim the clips to keep them from falling out. Discussion on the clips or photos are absent from the IRS rear brake instructions. They show a pretty good trim for the clips...I'm wondering if the clips were somehow causing the pads to bind in the caliper.

11.65 rear brake merge.png

[PMD24]

jengum, thanks for sharing. I did have the supplementals instructions which include the photos that you shared. The trimming of the clips is to allow them to settle fully into the slots so the ear is captured for providing the spring force. My clips fit in the slot without trimming. As it turns out trimming the clips would make them fit more loosely in the slot and result in them falling out more easily. The pads were tough to fit because they were actually longer than the space in the caliper minus the thickness of the two clips. Seems that many folks in the forum have experienced this same issue. Thanks again for providing the info and attaching the photos.

Pat

[PMD24]

Tackled the PS rear brakes today. Brake mounting bracket interference with the spindle was worse than DS. Had to grind off even more to get the bracket to seat on the washer. Rotor opening also needed grinding. Like the PS, it had one area that was so off round it could be spotted simply by looking at the rotor resting on the outside edge of the hub. Took some time but got it cleaned up so it seated properly. The good news is that the third issue that I had on the DS, I didn't have on the PS. The bushing and shim on the upper and lower mounting bolts put the caliper nicely centered on the rotor. I used an .075 washer to check it out but need to find another shim because I had to use 2 on the DS lower bolt. Now short one. Hopefully Runnings will have one and I can wrap up the rear brakes tomorrow.