Ingress and Egress

[Gollum]

I'm only just over 6' tall 180 pounds wet, and most of the featherweight cars I've gotten into in my lifetime have always made me feel like a fool getting in and out. The Elise is a very good example of this. All of the chassis stiffness runs on the outside of the chassis, and since it's all aluminum box tubing that's rather large, opposed to steel space frame, the door sills are subsequently huge and getting across them is no easy task.

Now, if we're talking about a roadster then it's not as big of a deal. You can then just step onto the seat itself and then "fall" in. Getting out you use the windshield as leverage and pull yourself up. If you're a bigger person this could still be difficult though.

So does anyone have some ideas of making a car this small and low to the ground easy to get in and out of? I DO hope that people's wives can share in the joy of these cars. I personally could never see my wife wearing an evening gown/skirt and getting into a lotus...

[Oppenheimer]

So does anyone have some ideas of making a car this small and low to the ground easy to get in and out of? I DO hope that people's wives can share in the joy of these cars. I personally could never see my wife wearing an evening gown/skirt and getting into a lotus...

OK, I'm a big DD proponent, and even I never considered driving to black-tie event with wife as part of the desired requirements. I think that may be asking too much.

That said, I am a big fan of ingress/egress, and the wife being willing/able to ride in it, and it would be cool to have the option to drive this thing to special events. I think your question is a good one, ideas to make it easier to live with this thing, but this is one area where I think there can be no compromises. Any idea to improve ingress/egress would need to do so without removing significant stiffness from the frame (or adding significant weight or cost).

That may not be feasible.

[redsharK]

and I am 6'1" and 220lbs... If I dont fit, I am out :-(

[MikeK]

I'm 6'2" and 260lbs, I get in and out of my MKII roadster with little to no problem, depending on how much I ate that day and I am very comfortable in the car. I see no reason I can't get the same thing from a car, WITH DOORS and a wheel base 5" longer

[riptide motorsport]

the coupe is 5"s longer and its dificult to get into and out of..............Steven

[thebeerbaron]

I'm single, 6' tall, 155lbs, flexible, and I don't give a rat's tukus how ridiculous I look getting into or out of a vehicle. Wanna see my design?

[MikeK]

I'm single, 6' tall, 155lbs, flexible, and I don't give a rat's tukus how ridiculous I look getting into or out of a vehicle. Wanna see my design?

Uhhhh, yes i do

[thebeerbaron]

Uhhhh, yes i do

No dice. Not until it gets submitted. But I will let you in on a secret - I found it easiest to get into the MX-5 Cup Car I drove at Skippy School by hoisting myself over the top of the cage and dropping into the seat from above, instead of opening the door and folding myself through there like a normal person.

Y'all better start doin' some stretching exercises

[D2W]

Most cars without a top are pretty easy to get into. However, put a low top on and that same car becomes a yoga exercise especially for the bigger guys. I posted in one of the other threads that I think it would be better to have the doors part of the hardtop. I know you think I'm crazy but think about the upside. With no door in the main shell the frame could be full height front to back like an exo car, very strong. I envision a low sill height, around 30". Most desk tops are around 30", pretty easy to slide over the top. The car would end up very similiar to an exo car except with a full body, and a windsheild. The top would look like a T-top. When the doors open part of the top goes with it, so now you slide over and down instead of trying to bend in half. No your not going to have roll up windows but based on the 1800 lbs finished weight I don't think you're going to get those anyway. Go ahead, tell me what you think, maybe I am crazy

P.S. My wife is not going to crawl around on her hands and knees to get into any car, evening gown or not.

[Someday I Suppose]

Roadsters are easy to get in and out of, but yes with a top makes it difficult. I'm not a small guy, maybe Yeti, not sure, but am 'long in the torso' even getting into our minivan if my wife has been driving it with the seat rased I have to go in head first or I can't get my head under the opening without looking like a fool.

Gollum, one note if you ever ride in a FFR Roadster, please please please don't reach up and grab the windshiled to pull yourself up. Better to do the opposite of what you did getting in, slide back up the seat, and then step out.

_Scott

[riptide motorsport]

GraBbing the windshield would prove to be a $800 mistake!

[mn_vette]

I had a C4 corvette that has the seat lower than the side sills. It took a while to figure out how to fall into it and roll out of it. It would be really nice if the door sill was lower than the seat. Or atleast give us hand grips to pull ourselves out of it.

[Oppenheimer]

Most cars without a top are pretty easy to get into. However, put a low top on and that same car becomes a yoga exercise especially for the bigger guys. I posted in one of the other threads that I think it would be better to have the doors part of the hardtop. I know you think I'm crazy but think about the upside. With no door in the main shell the frame could be full height front to back like an exo car, very strong. I envision a low sill height, around 30". Most desk tops are around 30", pretty easy to slide over the top. The car would end up very similiar to an exo car except with a full body, and a windsheild. The top would look like a T-top. When the doors open part of the top goes with it, so now you slide over and down instead of trying to bend in half. No your not going to have roll up windows but based on the 1800 lbs finished weight I don't think you're going to get those anyway. Go ahead, tell me what you think, maybe I am crazy

P.S. My wife is not going to crawl around on her hands and knees to get into any car, evening gown or not.

So is this like Gull-Wing doors, hinge is in the center of the roof, 'top' portion of door & 'T-top' portion of roof swing open together? I think that could work. Did you ever see that show 'Hardcastle & McCormick'? They had this customized McLaren replica, they called it the Coyote X, it had a 'T-top' like roof (but no roof panels or side windows), and that is how they got in & out of the car, sit on the sill, swing legs inside, slide in.

But couldn't you still have roll-up windows with gull-wing doors?

[D2W]

So is this like Gull-Wing doors, hinge is in the center of the roof, 'top' portion of door & 'T-top' portion of roof swing open together? I think that could work. Did you ever see that show 'Hardcastle & McCormick'? They had this customized McLaren replica, they called it the Coyote X, it had a 'T-top' like roof (but no roof panels or side windows), and that is how they got in & out of the car, sit on the sill, swing legs inside, slide in.

But couldn't you still have roll-up windows with gull-wing doors?

Yes, the Coyote X (Manta Montage) access is what I'm describing. I'm thinking that if the door opened forward and up (similiar to an Ultima) it would allow a bigger opening. When the top comes off so do the doors so roll up windows wouldn't be possible. But in this configuration you could run as a roadster, as an open t-top coupe, or a closed coupe with the doors.
DP

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, the Coyote X (Manta Montage) access is what I'm describing. I'm thinking that if the door opened forward and up (similiar to an Ultima) it would allow a bigger opening. When the top comes off so do the doors so roll up windows wouldn't be possible. But in this configuration you could run as a roadster, as an open t-top coupe, or a closed coupe with the doors.
DP

Cool. Not picturing though how the door opening could be bigger if the doors opened 'Lamborgini' style than if they were just gullwing?

I see how you'd only have windows (or doors) when running as a Coupe (but when in this configuration it could allow for roll-up windows), and how this setup would lend itself to modular roof options (Coupe, T-tops, Roadster). I like the concept.

I was reading up on the Elise, and I like how you can run as a Targa, but carry a cloth roof panel for bad weather (and with its roll-up windows, its weather-tight), or use a hard panel for a very Coupe like experience. Make ours so the back half of the 'Targa' is removable (for Roadster config), and you have a very modular setup that provides FFR builders a lot of options.

With your modular gullwing concept, perhaps they could make fabric 'doors' (like Jeep's) that snap into place, with a vinyl window. Cloth rolls up and stows easily. Achieve a similar modular capability, but with the 'tall sill' attributes you mentioned (stiffer frame, 'sit-n-spin' ingress/egress, etc).

[D2W]

Cool. Not picturing though how the door opening could be bigger if the doors opened 'Lamborgini' style than if they were just gullwing?

I see how you'd only have windows (or doors) when running as a Coupe (but when in this configuration it could allow for roll-up windows), and how this setup would lend itself to modular roof options (Coupe, T-tops, Roadster). I like the concept.

I was reading up on the Elise, and I like how you can run as a Targa, but carry a cloth roof panel for bad weather (and with its roll-up windows, its weather-tight), or use a hard panel for a very Coupe like experience. Make ours so the back half of the 'Targa' is removable (for Roadster config), and you have a very modular setup that provides FFR builders a lot of options.

With your modular gullwing concept, perhaps they could make fabric 'doors' (like Jeep's) that snap into place, with a vinyl window. Cloth rolls up and stows easily. Achieve a similar modular capability, but with the 'tall sill' attributes you mentioned (stiffer frame, 'sit-n-spin' ingress/egress, etc).

I'm not sure how much headroom is possible if the doors were gullwing style, might bang your head sliding in. The doors would be more like window frames, so I just don't see how it would have enough depth to have roll up windows. If there isn't room to store the doors on board your idea of soft doors could be great.
Another idea, if the main body didn't have a door but you integrated a roll-up window in the body side, then made a t-top configuration where the outside opened up gullwing style could be good. You'd have to be able to roll the windows down remotely and the design would work a lot better as a targa, but that could be a good design too. Although probably a lot heavier.
DP

[Oppenheimer]

I'm not sure how much headroom is possible if the doors were gullwing style, might bang your head sliding in. The doors would be more like window frames, so I just don't see how it would have enough depth to have roll up windows. If there isn't room to store the doors on board your idea of soft doors could be great.
Another idea, if the main body didn't have a door but you integrated a roll-up window in the body side, then made a t-top configuration where the outside opened up gullwing style could be good. You'd have to be able to roll the windows down remotely and the design would work a lot better as a targa, but that could be a good design too. Although probably a lot heavier.
DP

Wow, I like that. Kinda like T-tops with a center hinge, where you could either 'open' the top for ingress/egress, or remove the T-top from the roof for 'Targa' operation. Window roll-up is part of the body, there is no door at all. Ingress-egress via 'sit-n-spin'.

This could still allow for Roadster operation if the rear portion of the Targa were designed as removable. You sell the kit as a Roadster (and meet/exceed all the weight/cost targets), and sell the window kit, rear 'Targa' roof, T-Top panels (or cloth roof panels ala Elise) as piece-meal options, buyer buys whichever configuration(s) they want.

[Gollum]

I'm 6'2" and 260lbs, I get in and out of my MKII roadster with little to no problem, depending on how much I ate that day and I am very comfortable in the car. I see no reason I can't get the same thing from a car, WITH DOORS and a wheel base 5" longer

I've never had a problem getting in and out of a roadster. It's that darned top that's the problem! :-D

Gollum, one note if you ever ride in a FFR Roadster, please please please don't reach up and grab the windshiled to pull yourself up. Better to do the opposite of what you did getting in, slide back up the seat, and then step out.

_Scott

No worries. I'd never pull that unless I knew the car (and the owner) well enough to trust it.


Thinking about alternative door ideas, I'd never had the pleasure of using their door in person, but the koeingieissseegggereifalia seems to have a great system. Gets the door completely out of your way (unlike a full gulwing which gets in your way) but can also be opened up in tight corridors (unlike the GT40 & Ford GT). The big downside is that designing that complex of a hinge system isn't an easy task, and could drive the cost up.

Another issue that "lambo" or other door systems like that cause though, is that you're kind stuck with the top options you choose. It's a bit more tricky to design a removable top around a door that moves like that. Making it a fixed hard top is the easy route. Next would be a targa option. Building a frameless side window that seals on a removable hard top while still allowing the door to open and close easily seems like a serious challenge.

[MDRex]

Here is my thought on Lambo style doors.

[Cooluser23]

Yep, please no Lambo style doors.

I'll be okay with McLaren Mp4-12c style doors



Or any Aston Martin style doors. (Notice how they go slightly up. That helps with opening when parked next to a curb - (door won't scrub) )


For door handles, I like Aston Martin type handles as well:

[Magnus]

Or Koenigsegg style doors.

[Benji]

Koenigseggsegsegsegsegseg doors are actually the nicest for practicality and 'space saving' when open, the MP4-12C 'look' the nicest though, I doubt the FFR will have either.

[bromikl]

Yep, please no Lambo style doors.

I'll be okay with McLaren Mp4-12c style doors

I'm sure I've ever seen this car with the doors open.

I. Love. This. Car.

This is exactly the design I want to build. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, they say.

[PhyrraM]

Regular, plain doors will do just fine for me.

[Rotr8]

Dont expect any type of trick door, it will add to the cost and development of the project and really isn't in the spirit of the bare bones approach to this project.

[Cooluser23]

I'm fine with either McLarenMp4-12c style doors, or even regular type doors. My favorite would be regular type doors that open somewhat up, instead of parallel (see the Aston Martin pic), because they would make opening doors near sidewalk curbs easy. (I also think it's fairly simple and similar to a regular style door.)

Please avoid a Lotus Elise type doorsill if possible. Those cars are hard to get in and out off. A Tesla Roadster, or Lotus Evora sill would be much better and easier to get into, and out off.

[0100]

Doors... General Lee style is fine with me. Not joking either.

[thebeerbaron]

Doors... General Lee style is fine with me. Not joking either.

Agreed. Hinges etc just add weight. Fancy hinges for opening up or out or what have you add even more weight. Then you have to add reinforcements to counteract the lever action of all that door weight just hanging out in open air...

If the door has to open, this is about as complicated as I think it should be. Though I recommend closing all doors before venturing out on the track...

door.jpg

[PhyrraM]

Do the Aston 'slightly up' doors have a problem with wanting to close on their own?

[Oppenheimer]

Agreed. Hinges etc just add weight. Fancy hinges for opening up or out or what have you add even more weight. Then you have to add reinforcements to counteract the lever action of all that door weight just hanging out in open air...

If the door has to open, this is about as complicated as I think it should be. Though I recommend closing all doors before venturing out on the track...

door.jpg

So would you 'minimalist' guys be opposed to a car that had doors, with hinges, but when you went to the track, you could just remove the doors, and the hinges? (you didn't purchase the optional top, so no need to remove that)

Not trying to be a wisenheimer, just looking to let everyone get what they want.

[thebeerbaron]

Not trying to be a wisenheimer, just looking to let everyone get what they want.

My gut is that not everyone is going to get what they want. But there are plenty of threads about that already. What I personally want? Probably very much in line with what Dave and Jim are doing: 1800lbs and looks good. I don't want this car to weigh 1800lbs after I've taken off half the body. I want it to weigh 1800lbs ready to drive on the street. (I harbor no delusions about how uncomfortable a 1800lb car with no weather protection will be)

As far as doors - The Spec Miata and MX-5 Cup cars I've driven had full cages that extended into the door area. The original doors had been gutted to a shell. It improved ingress/egress, especially on the hard-topped SM. I think a reasonable expectation would be to re-use the WRX door hinges and latches to operate a minimally-reinforced fiberglass door that closed over the tube frame like in the caged cars above. I would not expect that the doors will provide any structural integrity or crash protection. That's assuming the winning design even uses doors.

My wild guess is that the reinforcements required to have a stiff chassis and a big fat door opening in a roadster would make the 1800lb target hard to hit. If you look at the side view of the GTM chassis, yes, there is a door opening, but there's also a bunch of tubing that makes up the top. I'm guessing that a lot of the chassis torsional strength comes from that rather large center tunnel. Which is not necessary on a mid-engined car and would make the already-small cockpit even smaller. I'm expecting that this chassis has a strong perimeter frame around a mostly-flat floor (small center tunnel for coolant, other pipes, non-structural). I think doors would interfere with that.

If you look at the Hot Rod frame, I think we're talking about something similar, except the 818 will be 300lbs lighter. Some of that weight will come from engine and transmission differences, but I expect some of it will have to be made up in the frame. I know nothing, but I'd expect those side frames to grow upward, with fewer, longer diagonals.

But I'm not Jim. What do I know?

[Olimk2]

Was surprised to see from your (great) video link that the elise was first conceived as a doorless car, maybe we'll see the same evolution here...

[thebeerbaron]

Was surprised to see from your (great) video link that the elise was first conceived as a doorless car, maybe we'll see the same evolution here...

That video blew my mind. Glad others are enjoying it. Massively cool.

[Gollum]

I'm not against door skins versus impact protection doors at all! I think if anything that could make ingress/egress EASIER when done right. Moving a super light door around in funky ways to get it OUT of your way and not into the CAR next to you in a parking spot is a whole lot easier than just moving a huge heavy door in a conventional way.

Stepping over some roll cage structure is never as hard as getting out of an opening that feels miles away from your seat, like in an elise. Another big factor is where to move your feet to when getting out. Some cars you don't know if you should exit feet first, or feet last. It can be really cumbersome. Suicide doors make it easier to get out in some respect, but make entrance quite different.

[Cooluser23]

Do the Aston 'slightly up' doors have a problem with wanting to close on their own?

No, they don't. At least on none of the Aston's I drove.

They really look a lot like normal hinges. Didn't look fancy at all. It's just angled up in a way so that the door moves up a bit as it moves outward.

I'm sure somebody could do a google search and find the pics, or diagrams.

[bromikl]

Speaking of suicide doors, with the seat so close to the front wheels, that could be the way to go. The door could be much shorter in length (stronger frame), and still allow easy entry. We should give that some serious consideration.

[Cooluser23]

Well, since nobody else googled it, here are the videos of Aston Martin doors opening. (Like I said, the mechanism isn't anything special, but the result of the door opening with an upwards swing helps avoid scratching it on sidewalk curbs. - which may be an issue since the 818 will be low to the ground)

forward to: 7:10


forward to: 0:52


forward to: 1:47


forward to: 1:53


It took me a few hours of watching Aston Martin clips to find these segments. I hope somebody will appreciate them.
Nobody spends a lot of time because the door opens so intuitive and undramatic.

It could be a good signature for the Factory Five 818, just like the "prancing bull horn" doors of the Lamborghini Miura.

I really love the door handles on the Aston Martin too. I'm sure those are easy to find, or build as many cars incorporate similar handles.
(they probably also help with aerodynamics.)

.
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Sorry, making the videos start automatically at the right time doesn't work when embedding videos.
for people who want to know when posting vids to other forums the code is: #t=31m08s
or if you're lazy: http://youtubetime.com/

[0100]

That video blew my mind. Glad others are enjoying it. Massively cool.

That was such a cool video. Everyone should watch the entire video but at least watch the part a 32:45 -


Engineering doors, roll up windows, locks, etc, is not easy, cheap, or help to make the 1800lb curb weight.

[kach22i]

The actual useful egress door area is dictated by the frame, right?.

All I have is a printout of the 3D frame drawing. I did not scale it to do this study, just eye-balled it for conversation purposes. Don't follow it, get it wrong and blame me - I'm not a frame expert.

Tell me what's wrong and right about this sketch/study.........................feel free to correct it and add your name to the changes using color, arrows or whatever suits your fancy.



NOTE: The penciled in outline of the car is not my design entry. Sort of looks like an old Escort 2+2 don't it?

Adding the GTM frame for reference:
http://www.cicenet.net/showthread.php?p=194839
C1-flipped.jpg

[mn_vette]

I had an odd thought the other day. If this car is going to be low enough, similar to a lotus 7 design. Why not make a full top that just pops open on a hinge and then you step over the door and in and pull the top down behind you. Almost like a clamshell. Just a weird idea I though of, probably wouldn't look cool, but out of the box thinking for things like that would make theis car a bit more special. Back to more random thoughts.......