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Thread: First problem in 3 years....

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    Harley818's Avatar
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    First problem in 3 years....

    Hi guys,
    Been driving this car for 3 summers now, but recently have been having a few issues.
    Wondering if you guys have any experience with these symptoms.

    Recently I have been having backfires when I let off the throttle, but power was still great.
    In the last week, backfires have been getting worse.
    Sometime in the last 2 months it developed a ticking sound at idle, but its getting louder. Sounds like a sticking valve, but I had the valves professionally done when I put the engine together.
    Yesterday it ran really rough, it bogged badly when I stepped on the throttle . Power was way lower than normal so I drove it gently home.

    At some time the engine check light came on.
    By coincidence..... my speedometer started randomly fluctuating
    When I checked the engine code with my ODB computer, I got P0500 - Vehicle speed Sensor A. Not sure what this means.

    I am working my way through the engine and ECM, making sure all the connectors are secure and checking all my grounds first.
    Then I am thinking it may be injector related. I'll pull each one out and see if it makes any difference.
    Then I'll check the coils.

    Not sure where to go after that.

    Anyone got any ideas.... that would be helpful.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    It may be an electrical issue that's causing the ECU to pull timing or possibly a bad ground? It sounds like you're checking in the right places. I would continue looking at what the ECU is reading and data logging to help troubleshoot the issue. You could also check the spark plugs and fuel filter. Also, I'm not sure if you're running on the stock tune or if the car was tuned at some point. A quick compression test may also be worth a shot if you suspect a bad valve. I'm not familiar with the P0500 code but I would research that. Hope that helps.

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    Harley818's Avatar
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    OK, thanks for the quick response.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    It is possible an exhaust manifold/header leak can cause the symptoms you describe. Ticking at idle when exhaust gas escapes and the popping or backfire when air mixes with unburned fuel on deceleration. It is worth investigating.

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Harley, what is you definition of backfire. A gunshot out the tailpipe? A cough back through the intake?

    Some of your symptoms could be related to running to lean. I would check your fuel pressure.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDRP View Post
    It is possible an exhaust manifold/header leak can cause the symptoms you describe. Ticking at idle when exhaust gas escapes and the popping or backfire when air mixes with unburned fuel on deceleration. It is worth investigating.
    Thanks RDRP..... I did check the exhaust connections and they are good. Definitely a mechanical sounding item. I've been using a tube to try to locate the sound, but its difficult to pinpoint.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Harley, what is you definition of backfire. A gunshot out the tailpipe? A cough back through the intake?

    Some of your symptoms could be related to running to lean. I would check your fuel pressure.
    Bob
    It sounds like a cough through the intercooler. Fuel pressure is good. I have a gauge on my dash.
    Im going to try some datalogging with my Accessport V3. I have to figure out how to do that......
    I tried disconnecting each injector last night. Not much difference while idling, but when I moved it up to around 1200 - 1500 rpm there was a noticable difference for each injector so I guess they are working. Not sure if they are metering correct AF though.
    I had it tuned a couple years ago and was running great till last week.

    Is it possible that the VSS is causing it to go into limp mode? I was reading something about that online last night. Did 2002 have ECM with limp mode?
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley818 View Post
    It sounds like a cough through the intercooler. Fuel pressure is good. I have a gauge on my dash.
    Im going to try some datalogging with my Accessport V3. I have to figure out how to do that......
    I tried disconnecting each injector last night. Not much difference while idling, but when I moved it up to around 1200 - 1500 rpm there was a noticable difference for each injector so I guess they are working. Not sure if they are metering correct AF though.
    I had it tuned a couple years ago and was running great till last week.

    Is it possible that the VSS is causing it to go into limp mode? I was reading something about that online last night. Did 2002 have ECM with limp mode?
    With our 04 FXT ecu, we had some VSS problems and fault code. It cause maybe a 20 to 30% drop in power, but drivability was fine. When it happened Michael finished his track session.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    With our 04 FXT ecu, we had some VSS problems and fault code. It cause maybe a 20 to 30% drop in power, but drivability was fine. When it happened Michael finished his track session.
    I'm replacing the VSS, then I'll see what I have ......
    I guess it hasn't been out since 2002. The 17mm just rounded out the flats so I had to break it apart and chisel it out to get it out...
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley818 View Post
    I'm replacing the VSS, then I'll see what I have ......
    I guess it hasn't been out since 2002. The 17mm just rounded out the flats so I had to break it apart and chisel it out to get it out...
    When I blew our transmission. I found a 2012 5mt to replace it. The 2012 doesn't have a vss in the transmission. So I added a sensor to the front wheel. Still working great.
    P1050847s.jpg

    Keep us informed on your results.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

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    Hi Guys..... wondering if any of you Subaru guys can help with a couple items.

    So I replaced the VSS and now have functioning speedo and no longer in limp mode.
    I have most of the power back… but not all. And the car seems to be running hotter temps.
    The ticking sound is still there – noticeable at idle and just off idle.

    Also, something strange with my radiator fans.
    The fans normally don’t come on until the coolant reaches 205 degrees, when they both come on.
    This cools the engine down to about 180 when they turn off, and the cycle repeats if it gets back to 205 (usually in stop and go traffic).
    However, whats happening now is the fans turn on immediately when I start the car. They run continuously I think…. Haven’t done extensive tests.
    I also notice that the engine seems to be running hotter for some reason. Its fine when moving, but gets hotter faster when in traffic.

    I noticed my battery is low…probably from not driving the car regularly, so I am charging it with my battery tender.
    Could low battery cause the control system to act differently with the fans?
    What would cause the fans to go on immediately?

    Regarding the higher temps….. could the ticking be injectors that aren’t working correctly? I have some new STI pinks that I am going to install and have re-tuned. They are new and have 565cc flow instead of 420cc flow. Maybe the old injectors with 100K miles aren’t working correctly… thus the ticking? And running lean… hotter temps?

    Any comments would be helpful.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    You may want to check that your engine coolant temp sensor and fan relays are working properly. If either is malfunctioning, I can see how that would turn on both fans. Any check engine codes?

    From the FSM:
    Untitled.jpg

    I don't remember for sure but I think both fans may also come on if the ECU thinks it's in reflash mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    You may want to check that your engine coolant temp sensor and fan relays are working properly. If either is malfunctioning, I can see how that would turn on both fans. Any check engine codes?

    From the FSM:
    Untitled.jpg

    I don't remember for sure but I think both fans may also come on if the ECU thinks it's in reflash mode.
    Thanks for the chart..... I don't have AC, I deleted it.
    I'm thinking now that I did have an error code related to the VSS sensor failure - which I deleted with the ODBII diagnostic device I have. Could that have put it into reflash mode?
    I'll hook up my Accessport - hopefully it tells me if its in reflash mode.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    I would definitely chase down any lingering check engine codes. Make sure the coolant sensor is actually reading the right value. You may already have the FSM but here is the fan circuit:
    fans.jpg

    If the ECU is sending power to the fan relays (probably 5V), then there is some condition that's causing the issue internally. If there is no power going to the relay and the fans are still running, then the relay is probably the issue.

    Another option is to install those new injectors and see if the tuner can figure out the fan problem.

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    Harley818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    I would definitely chase down any lingering check engine codes. Make sure the coolant sensor is actually reading the right value. You may already have the FSM but here is the fan circuit:
    fans.jpg

    If the ECU is sending power to the fan relays (probably 5V), then there is some condition that's causing the issue internally. If there is no power going to the relay and the fans are still running, then the relay is probably the issue.

    Another option is to install those new injectors and see if the tuner can figure out the fan problem.
    Funny you should say that..... I was thinking the same thing about the tuner.

    thanks for the help.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Harley here’s a link to my grounding issue a while back still running strong today
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ght=Flickering

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMC7492 View Post
    Harley here’s a link to my grounding issue a while back still running strong today
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ght=Flickering

    Thanks,
    I checked the intake and engine grounds, as well as ECM grounds, but I'll check the others you mentioned.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Harley818's Avatar
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    I rechecked and retightened all the grounds. Voltmeter showed 13.3 V at all points on the engine, trans, and ECU and other grounds.
    Fans now running correctly but I still have the ticking in the engine which is getting a bit worse.
    Sometimes its soft, other times its quite loud like a sticking valve.
    Idles OK, but hesitates and coughs when you dip in to the throttle and backfires when you let up quickly. Still not pulling as strong as before either.

    Took the car to the tuner planning to replace the injectors and get his opinion. He didn't like the ticking even though it was not loud at the time.
    We pulled the oil filter and cut it apart. A couple small aluminum flakes but not much more.

    After changing the oil, we restarted and let it run for 5 mins. Ticking got quite loud, and he noticed a misfire at some times. Definitely still some hesitation off idle.
    He did some data logging and said everything seems normal. A/F ratio was good, no knocking, oil pressure etc. all good.
    With the noise, he advised to pull the engine and see what it is before it gets worse.

    I guess I have some work ahead of me.
    Once I pull it and open it up, if I see any issues at all, I'm thinking of just getting an OEM shortblock. I'm not going for crazy power and plan to keep it around 300 - 320 Hp.
    I'm at 265 now, but might add a bigger turbo to get to 300.
    Flatirons has some built by subaru for a reasonable price. anyone have any positive or negative comments on these guys.... in Boulder, CO?
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Just a wild shot - is it possible you are hearing injector "bang" in the fuel lines. Subaru and others put those pulse dampers here and there in the lines to kill that noise which can get pretty loud from what I've read.

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Before pulling the engine, I would remove the valve covers and check the valve clearances. Sometimes the cam followers (buckets) get worn down. I'd also do a quick compression test while the starter can crank over the motor to verify your valves are seating properly.

    As far as the misfires, I'd check the spark plugs. You could try replacing the injectors and seeing if that makes a difference.

    I'd also recommend inspecting the oil in the pan. If you don't see any signs of wear and you're considering replacing the block anyway then there isn't much risk in running the current block.

  25. #21
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    I've bought from Flatiron in Boulder and they had good prices, shipped quickly and accurately.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    Just a wild shot - is it possible you are hearing injector "bang" in the fuel lines. Subaru and others put those pulse dampers here and there in the lines to kill that noise which can get pretty loud from what I've read.
    Thanks Art. I will check that out.
    I don't really want to pull the engine.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    Before pulling the engine, I would remove the valve covers and check the valve clearances. Sometimes the cam followers (buckets) get worn down. I'd also do a quick compression test while the starter can crank over the motor to verify your valves are seating properly.

    As far as the misfires, I'd check the spark plugs. You could try replacing the injectors and seeing if that makes a difference.

    I'd also recommend inspecting the oil in the pan. If you don't see any signs of wear and you're considering replacing the block anyway then there isn't much risk in running the current block.
    Thanks StipWRD - Oil in the pan when we drained it looked dark but no metal flakes and no metal powder.... tuner said the noise wasn't injectors (I was hoping it was and had a set of injectors ready for him to try.)
    Good call to check the plugs, although they only have about 5000km on them.
    Valves were professionally done with a local engine shop who has a good reputation and does a lot of Subaru engines so Im thinking its not that.... and its quite loud at times, subtle other times while idling. Valve noise at idle would be consistent wouldn't they?
    I'll check the plugs.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    I've bought from Flatiron in Boulder and they had good prices, shipped quickly and accurately.

    good to know. IN case I need a short block.....

    I talked to them today.

    I'm thinking about a hybrid.... using a 2.5 block with the 2.0 heads and thicker gasket.
    Anyone on this forum have any experience with a hybrid?
    Apparently the heads etc bolt right on, same mounts etc.

    Of course, then that begs the question of a turbo upgrade to a 16G.

    "Never replace parts without upgrading"
    Last edited by Harley818; 08-24-2019 at 12:39 AM.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    OK you are not going to believe this!!!!

    My engine is back to normal and now FULL power with no ticking noise.

    As you see from my previous posts, I was ready to be resigned to pulling the engine to see what the issue was. On the weekend I even made a full page list of what I need to do to get it done.

    As a last resort.... I called a local guy I met when I was selling parts from my donor. He is head of Subaru Maintenance at the local Subaru dealer.
    He has stopped by to monitor my progress from time to time so I knew he would probably come to check.

    It took him 10 minutes to find it...... the crankshaft pulley was loose, wobbling, and knocking into something from time to time when idling and when letting off the gas.
    He located the sound to the front of the engine.... suggested we pull off the alternator belt as in the past he has seen some really bad and noisy alternator bearings.
    When we took off the belt, the noise was almost gone, and a little more subtle.
    as we were looking, he could see it wobbling a bit so we shut it down and he reached down and found it was loose.

    The loose pulley made the periodic ticking sound.... almost like a knock at times.
    And....get this.... the knocking must have been sensed by the knock sensor which retarded the timing, thus the lack of power and backfiring.

    Today we installed a new pulley, and the problem is completely gone. Power is back! Hesitation on acceleration is gone, and backfiring when letting off the throttle is gone.

    Crazy story.....and I lost a month checking everything.
    Good news.... all my grounds and connections are good, I went through almost everything......
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Harley, I'm thrilled that you found the problem and it was a simple fix. And, thanks a lot for posting the solution to help others.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Wow, mystery solved! Loose crank pulley huh

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley818 View Post
    I'm thinking about a hybrid.... using a 2.5 block with the 2.0 heads and thicker gasket.
    Anyone on this forum have any experience with a hybrid?
    Apparently the heads etc bolt right on, same mounts etc.
    I'm running the hybrid setup if you decide to go this route in the future. I'm still breaking in the motor so I've barely given it 20% throttle but I can definitely tell it's going to make good power and has good low end torque. The 2.0 heads have a smaller combustion chamber than the 2.5 heads so this will increase your compression ratio - this is good for power but isn't the safest thing for the engine. To bring the CR back where it should be, JE makes a set of forged pistons.

  34. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    Wow, mystery solved! Loose crank pulley huh


    I'm running the hybrid setup if you decide to go this route in the future. I'm still breaking in the motor so I've barely given it 20% throttle but I can definitely tell it's going to make good power and has good low end torque. The 2.0 heads have a smaller combustion chamber than the 2.5 heads so this will increase your compression ratio - this is good for power but isn't the safest thing for the engine. To bring the CR back where it should be, JE makes a set of forged pistons.
    Yeah, I'm still interested in this for the future.
    From the research I did, they recommended using the thicker gasket (1.5mm) to get the comp ratio back close to stock, then you have more options for turbo, fuel etc. and its not so risky for the engine.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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    Thanks for sharing the fix - makes sense including the knock sensor behavior. Reminds me of my 69 Vette I got right after getting out of the Navy. Previous owner hit a small tree that messed up the front. A low cost shop fixed it for the bank that had repo'd it after the wreck. I could never run it up past about 4000 RPM as it would start shaking. Having not had a big motor like that before I just lived with it not knowing there was a better life ahead.

    Turned out that shop had pressed the harmonic balancer back together that had been knocked apart. This one was made with an inner wheel that bolts on the crank at the front, then an outer balancing ring is pressed on that wheel with a rubber isolator between. The whole thing is made at the factory to be once piece installation. The shop just put it back together without whatever indexing it needed.

    The thing finally fell apart and made a racket rattling up there. When I put a new one on it was like I had a new car, engine and all - rev'd and ran like a scared rabbit. Live n learn.

  36. #30
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley818 View Post
    Yeah, I'm still interested in this for the future.
    From the research I did, they recommended using the thicker gasket (1.5mm) to get the comp ratio back close to stock, then you have more options for turbo, fuel etc. and its not so risky for the engine.
    That is certainly one of the ways to reduce compression ratio. Although I've heard some shops recommend against this approach since it exposes more of the head gasket side area than the thinner OEM gasket. Over time, this can wear out the thicker gasket from the sides. Another thing people do is machine out some of the metal in the 2.0 heads to better match the 2.5 bores - this also increases combustion volume and reduces compression ratio. To me, the aftermarket pistons with a deeper dish seemed like the easiest and most reliable solution.

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    Incidentally, look very closely at the key and keyway in the crankshaft, be sure the keyway hasn't gotten spread.
    The Undead Gearhead, back from beyond the grave

  38. #32
    Harley818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Smith View Post
    Incidentally, look very closely at the key and keyway in the crankshaft, be sure the keyway hasn't gotten spread.
    Thanks Brad. We did check it and the key itself and both looked good. Made sure we torqued the new one really well too.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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