H6-EZ30 engine in the 818----IT FITS

[Wayne Presley]

Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines.


I ran the donor yesterday morning with the cat back off of it and it sounds so sweet. Sounds just the 911 Porsche. Pulled the donor apart yesterday, pulled the motor out of my 818 this morning, had the H6 in by 10AM, removed it and had my motor back in before lunch. The motor bolted in to the stock location, had about .300" clearance between the passenger side timing cover and frame. Exhaust will have to be custom and the upper coolant has two ports instead of one and will require a 2 into 1 manifold/T of sorts. Did I mention I love the sound???





Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines.

[ehansen007]

Lets hear it!

[David Hodgkins]

Hoo hoo hoo, I'm ready to see that run too! What's the HP rating, and what models does in come out of?



EDIT: Answered my own question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...baru_EZ_engine

[timmy318]

That's awesome!!!! Can't wait to hear it (you are going to let us hear it right? )!

[SkiRideDrive]

This is awesome.

and just to fuel the fire....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdhSlF5oK94

[Mechie3]

Nice. I think the only "issue" with the EZ30 was engine management if you didn't want to spend big bucks.

Pretty cool how quickly you had it in and out and back again. lol.

[Silvertop]

"The Sound" is the primary (maybe the only) reason I would ever have seriously considered trying to shoehorn an H6 into this car. To me, the Porsche flat 6 has always been one of the prettiest sounding engines around -- and I had no doubt that the Subie H6 would sound very similar. I'm pretty sure my custom EL headers for my NA H4 will make my 818 sound good -- but there's really no way to make a four-banger sound like a six. I do hope you (Wayne) recorded the sound before you took the engine back out again. Because you're probably going to be HOUNDED until you produce an audio of it. Which means putting it back in again.

Well, come to think of it, another really good reason to put in the six would be for the broad torque curve. I'd love to have that.

[C.Plavan]

Sounds like this....... Hit HD for better sound/vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM1qMadE3M

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

[Silvertop]

Sounds like this....... Hit HD for better sound/vid...........

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

Yup, that's the sound -- though unless I'm way off base, that IS a flat six Porsche, not a Subie trying to sound like one. Looks like you had some fun there. Classic battle of brute horsepower vs. phenomenal handling. I can't believe how quickly you caught him up in the turns -- but how easily he was able to pull away in the straights. Had to be fun, though! You drive well!

[jkrueger]

Sounds like this....... Hit HD for better sound/vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM1qMadE3M

(I'm chasing a 2x Daytona 24 hour winner for the lead)

Great race! Sounds good too.

[flynntuna]

Does the transmission bolt to the frame in the same location? Even though FFR doesn't support the H6, one could start with a NA build and upgrade to a H6 later.

[skullandbones]

Wayne,

So that means the CVs, shafts, etc all line up and the diff fits within the body panels? I suppose Electromotive could support it with a stand alone system. They've done everything else, I think. Love the exhaust note! Thanks, WEK.

[WIS89]

Wayne-

I need to hijack a line from the Adam Sandler movie Mr. Deeds. "I think you underestimate my sneakiness Sir!" You Sir, are quite sneaky!!

Congratulations again on your very coolness! I am slack-jawed! Keep on rocking.

Regards,

Steve

[Wayne Presley]

Does the transmission bolt to the frame in the same location? Even though FFR doesn't support the H6, one could start with a NA build and upgrade to a H6 later.

The trans is in the same location.

Wayne,

So that means the CVs, shafts, etc all line up and the diff fits within the body panels? I suppose Electromotive could support it with a stand alone system. They've done everything else, I think. Love the exhaust note! Thanks, WEK.

All fits, the only tight point is one of the cooling inlets but not a deal breaker

Wayne-

I need to hijack a line from the Adam Sandler movie Mr. Deeds. "I think you underestimate my sneakiness Sir!" You Sir, are quite sneaky!!

Congratulations again on your very coolness! I am slack-jawed! Keep on rocking.

Regards,

Steve

Me sneaky? Nah, just wanted to see if it could be done. The flat 4 sounds great between 3000 and 7000 rpm, just not so much at near idle speeds. Now the flat 6 is pure music to my ears, and that sound tucked in my FFR 818 will be heaven! Dropping the motor in the chassis requires some creative manipulations if you have the intake on the engine. It has to go in about 10° nose down the the tail of the trans swung over to the drivers side about a foot.

[Wayne Presley]

One more pic

[BipDBo]

One more pic

I hate to be the party pooper, but I have some concerns.

Can you even replace the serpentine belt or remove the appurtenances without disconnecting motor mounts?
My biggest pet peeve with modern cars is the lack of room to get your arm around or a wrench I the right place. Now you need a special tool for just about every nut on the car. Is that going to be a problem with this car?

Is there going to be enough airflow between the front of the engine and that aluminum panel? Normally, in a Legacy, there is a lot of airflow over that engine. In this installation, you are trapping heat. The Fisker Karma has really tight packaging under the hood and as a result, many of those cars turned to BBQs. I wouldn't be surprised if you melt that plastic timing chain cover or possibly worse. You may want to figure out a way to monitor the temperature the front of that engine the first couple of runs.

[Wayne Presley]

I hate to be the party pooper, but I have some concerns.

Can you even replace the serpentine belt or remove the appurtenances without disconnecting motor mounts?

Yes, no problem at all

My biggest pet peeve with modern cars is the lack of room to get your arm around or a wrench I the right place. Now you need a special tool for just about every nut on the car. Is that going to be a problem with this car?

Nope

Is there going to be enough airflow between the front of the engine and that aluminum panel? I wouldn't be surprised if you melt that plastic timing chain cover or possibly worse.

If you look at the motor you will notice an aluminum timing cover, if that melts I have bigger problems....

[BipDBo]

Yes, no problem at all


Nope


If you look at the motor you will notice an aluminum timing cover, if that melts I have bigger problems....

Fortunately, you'll always have plenty of access from the top and the sides with the 818.

For some reason, I was thinking that the EZ had a plastic cover over the serpentine belt. That would be very odd, though, to see a cover over the serpentine belt. Perhaps I was thinking about the timing chain cover on the EJ.

It still may be wise to stick a thermocouple to the front of that engine, and perhaps direct some airflow to that gap, just in case. Probably 90% of the engine heat leaves through coolant, so you're not likely to have a problem. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but since you're putting a fire wall where there is usually airflow, it couldn't hurt to be careful.

[Xusia]

Just seeing this is making me consider blowing my budget and dropping coin on an H6 and engine management. LOVE the sound. Not the smartest reason to spend more money, but man - SO tempting!

[Flamshackle]

ok this is a game changer!!! great work Wayne!

I think a turbo 6 could make this little car a real hyper unit!

[swine]

ok this is a game changer!!! great work Wayne!

I think a turbo 6 could make this little car a real hyper unit!

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

[Movieman]

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

If you take that lower figure of 418HP and use a wet weight of say 2100lbs with driver you are talking 5.02LBs/HP
Use the 466HP figure with the same parameters and your at 4.5LBs/HP
Yea, I think thats enough to add a spincter factor of 9.8 to the driving experience!
Of course if you used such a vechicle for a daily driver you'd have to add 20-30 minutes to your planned daily commute for the daily speeding ticket you'd be receiving.

[Turboguy]

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

Awesome

NOW - go figure out how to make it sound like a Porsche flat-6. Come back when you do, and not before.

Am I missing something? What relevance does an E85 tune for a 2010 STi have on using an H6?

It is about as relevant as the price of bananas is to someone who only eats apples.

You are not missing anything.

[swine]

Awesome

NOW - go figure out how to make it sound like a Porsche flat-6. Come back when you do, and not before.






It is about as relevant as the price of bananas is to someone who only eats apples.

You are not missing anything.

Awesome sarcasm.

The guy i quoted said "real hyper car" due to a turbo 6. I naturally assumed he was referring to hp potential. Hence why i said "if we are talking hp".

Im not trying to piss on anyones H6 dreams like you thought i was. An h6 will sound great and be a quick car with nice manners in regards to power delivery. More "hyper" then a properly prepared well built 4cyl? I dont think it would be fair to assume that.

Sorry for wasting your time man.

Anyways wayne, whats your plan for turbo'ing your 6? What kind of wtq and hp are you looking for? What size turbo, keeping the gt28 i assume?

[Wayne Presley]

Are you boosting the engine stock? I haven't found much online about its limits with stock pistons. However, there is a supercharger kit for the tribeca that claims 100+hp reliably.

I'm going to boost the stock EZ30, there are plenty cars running around with 6 psi superchargers on stock engines.

Anyways Wayne, whats your plan for turbo'ing your 6? What kind of wtq and hp are you looking for? What size turbo, keeping the gt28 i assume?

I'm probably going with the GTX2871R or the GTX3071R and looking for 285-295 RWHP/TQ. The GTX series flow much better at low pressure ratios.

[Silvertop]

I'd be just a little bit nervous about that .300" clearance between the timing covers and the frame though. Engines DO move a little on their mounts usually. Might have to make some minor frame alterations. But yes, it's tempting, isn't it?

Personally, I think adding a turbo would be overkill. The thing would probably be bordering on stupid fast in NA mode. But that's just my getting-to-be-an-old-guy opinion. Whatever floats your boat!

[tirod]

Now some of the pressure is off buying up all the WRX wrecks. I see your sneaky game plan, diverting attention to the H6.

It's completely natural of course - if some's good, more's better. Enough people beating Dave up on the H6 will likely get some attention to making it an option, the MkII would get a "firewall" upgrade to fit better, etc.

So, finish that car and give Dave the keys. You know he will be hooked. >;E

[RM1SepEx]

set the drivetrain back an inch, the CV's should handle the small longitudinal offset... slight mod to the rear bodywork...

[SkiRideDrive]

Forgive my ignorance, but could any of the cars which include the more recent H6 (Found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2007 Tribeca. according to Wiki) be a nearly complete donor? I believe many of these donors would have an auto so you may need to source a transmission and work around the wiring issues, but any comments on whether everything else should work?

Thanks!

[Wayne Presley]

Forgive my ignorance, but could any of the cars which include the more recent H6 (Found in the 2003–2009 Legacy 3.0R, Outback 3.0R and 2006–2007 Tribeca. according to Wiki) be a nearly complete donor? I believe many of these donors would have an auto so you may need to source a transmission and work around the wiring issues, but any comments on whether everything else should work?

Thanks!

None of those are complete donors, the vast majority of the H6's are automatics. The 2005 Legacy GT I pulled apart I was unable to use the lower control arms, rear knuckles, rear trailing arm, lateral links, and dash. The 2004 Outback that the H6 came out of had the same parts not usable plus the automatic trans.

[skullandbones]

I think someone will cram an EG33 (3.3 liter) into one of these. They are relatively cheap (not on the Subie enthusiasts radar yet) and can give enough HP with just NA. No replacement for displacement is still valid for small engines, too. Proving that you can put a H6 in without modification is going to open Pandora's box so to speak. Can't wait to see the first build with a six banger! WEK.

[Turboguy]

I think someone will cram an EG33 (3.3 liter) into one of these. They are relatively cheap (not on the Subie enthusiasts radar yet) and can give enough HP with just NA.

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

[skullandbones]

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

Yeah, I remember now. That will take a skilled fabricator to pull that one off! Thanks, WEK.

[AMW1011]

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

Yeppers, the EZ30r came with about 250hp and the EZ30 came with about 212hp. The heads on the EZ30 aren't conductive to FI, so if you wanna turbo you need to go for the EZ30r or convert an EZ30.

[Desertrunner]

From previous discussions, it appears the EG33 is at least 2-3" longer than the EZ30R Wayne installed - with the EZ30 having only 0.300" clearance, the EG33 will likely require major work to make it fit. The EZ30R also comes from the factory with about 30HP more on tap to start.

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

[Turboguy]

From my experiance the EG33 is more powerfull off the shelf then the EZ30R but I could be wrong. Also if you are thinking of sticking a turbo on the EG33 is far stronger.
Tony

Unfortunately, you are not correct. The EZ30 has more HP and torque out of the box than the EG33. Perrin turbocharged and built an EZ30R up to 600HP a few years back with stock bearings & crank, so your point about the EG33 being "stronger" would also seem to be incorrect, or at least "not applicable" for the 99.5% of people who are fine with less than 600HP

And the EG33 isnt' THAT much bigger than the EZ30D

I recall a difference of almost 3" -- and when you only have 0.300" to work with -and a frame and gas tank in the way- 3" is like having to go to the moon and back just to get milk.

Personally i like the EG33 MUCH better than i do the EZ30. It's easier, cheaper, stronger, better.

An EG33 can be had for around $600 if one takes the time to look...............EZ30 is roughly $1500 for engine alone

Theres a company here local called "metric Motors Extreme" who builds Subaru engines specifically for "off road use" or for Sandrails. they make and sell an EG33 with a midsize turbo. advertized 600BHP on a built bottom end.

Why don't you go price those motors out, and then come back and tell us how "affordable" the EG33 is?

Seriously, it's a little ridiculous talking about how cheap the EG33 solution is -quoting $600 for a worn out 20 year old used engine- and then throwing a 600HP spec out there from a fully built $17,300 RACE MOTOR.

By the time you price in a full rebuild that your 20 year old EG33 will require, it will ALSO be more expensive than a $1,500 low-mileage pull EZ30R. And that is BEFORE factoring in the costs to re-engineer and modify the 818 chassis and fuel cell to accept an EG33.





Personally, I think there's enough info out there that it's time to let the EG33 discussion just die. It just doesn't seem to make sense on any level to me.

The crowd looking at a flat-6 powered 818 should be thankful for the EZ30 solution, and buy Wayne a (or 2 or 3) for helping those of us who are considering a flat-6 IMMENSELY by doing this trial fit. Again a HUGE thank-you Wayne for taking the time to do this, and let us all in on the results.

[SkiRideDrive]

Thanks for the info Wayne.

[Turboguy]

Thank you VERY much for doing a test fit and letting us in on the results, Wayne!


Do you think the 1/4" or so clearance is going to be enough? I'm sure the frame and/or firewall could be modified to increase clearance in that area if need be.

I hope the H-6 uses a timing chain, as you'd almost certainly have to pull the motor to do a timing belt.

[Flamshackle]

Thank you VERY much for doing a test fit and letting us in on the results, Wayne!


Do you think the 1/4" or so clearance is going to be enough? I'm sure the frame and/or firewall could be modified to increase clearance in that area if need be.

I hope the H-6 uses a timing chain, as you'd almost certainly have to pull the motor to do a timing belt.

Yes it does use a chain.

[Movieman]

Stay tuned for next week when Wayne shows everyone how to install the engine from the Lemans winning Gulf Porsche 917-30 into an 818 by simply bending two small parts!
Wayne: Did I tell you that you impress the hell out of me!