33 Machine electric 818e build- Sold! Headed to China!

[ehansen007]

Got a few things done during the holidays although not at much as I hoped!


Needed to make a battery holder for my small motorcycle battery. Wanted to put it on this side of the chassis to offset the drive. I would have liked to put it lower but it would have been a pain.


First I welded up a small frame out of angled steel.


Then I added a leg for support.


Voila! Love making stuff like this.




Finally I made a brace to hold it in. I plan on dipping this with Plasti-dip to make it non conductive.

[ehansen007]

Next I welded in some tabs for my NRG seat brackets to mount to. Next I need to make seat harness mounts too.



Love these seats. They fit right in the spot provided.

[AZPete]

Why do you need a motorcycle battery with all the other battery power you have? For the microwave?

[Canadian818]

Are you going to mount the harness to the square bar like we talked about?

[ehansen007]

I will be using a motorcycle battery because I will have a 150V system running the motor but will still need to convert to 12V for all other functions and must have a source of power to start up the car and open the contactors.

On the harness, I'm not sure where I"m going to mount those. It will be harder for me to use the square bar since I have a controller on the back of the firewall.

[Frank818]

Does this mean a car like Tesla has a 12v battery too?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Does this mean a car like Tesla has a 12v battery too?

All road worthy EV cars have a 12v system. Some of my electric class 8 trucks have 24v systems. Required for hazard lights and such in case of a propulsion battery fault.
36 & 48 volt golf carts do not have a 12v system.
Bob

[clintavo]

Majorly impressive!

For a track day, would a portable generator (in the pax seat area?) add sufficient range for a 60 to 90 mile one-way drive?

Could you do 20 minutes on track, with an hour to charge in between?

[ehansen007]

I will tow for track days. My goal this year is to do the EV track day at Laguna Seca in June along with EV West and see how we do.

[David Hodgkins]

Erik,

The guy I've been shuttling to and from work got his car back so I'm finally free to check out the build! When are you free?

[ehansen007]

Picked up a pedal from a Prius to install. Using the starboard I created some spacing to get the proper distances which seems to be 2.75" to the right of the brake and 2" under (closer to the firewall). The firewall flexes a bit however it's not noticeable at the pedal. Still I may make a brace for it.

URL=http://s897.photobucket.com/user/ehansen007/media/818/818%20BUILD/9225A3EE-29E3-4483-A0C2-BD69D47C3635_zpsiwxte5s0.jpg.html][/URL]

[Canadian818]

Erik, do you have any more pics of the brackets you welded in for the seats? Thanks

[ehansen007]

They are just 1" angle steel bracket needed on the outside rails only. As basic as it gets. . The bummer is I forgot to put in the harness mounts!!

[Frank818]

Nice pedals.

[tmoretta]

Do the seats bolt right to the floor then? They look like they fit nice and low (more clearance for roll bar). Who sells those seats?

[ehansen007]

Well, I do. And yes, they bolt right to the floor and they are nice and low. I'm 6-1 and can't be using the stock seats. I've sold a few sets already to 818 members in fiberglass and carbon fiber. They are very well made. I'm considering making some bolt in brackets so there is no welding needed.

[wleehendrick]

I got the same seats from Erik and am happy with them. Erik, I'd be interested in a bolt on bracket kit if you put one together.

[RM1SepEx]

You can use a DC-DC converter to get 12v too. It's not acceptable to just pull 12 volts from a portion of the main pack.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/dc-d...erters-ev.html

[ehansen007]

Yup, however I have to use this one since I'm putting 170V into 12!

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produc...1pmtl3ltjbndb1

[tmoretta]

I am interested too. Let us know.

[RM1SepEx]

Yup, however I have to use this one since I'm putting 170V into 12!

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produc...1pmtl3ltjbndb1

that's a nice unit, my reverse trike only has 84 volts to draw the 12v circuit from...

[Speedy G]

Wow, nice build. I think I've read the entire thing like 3 times.

I'm wondering why you think the range of this thing is only 60 miles, if the tesla S with 60AH batteries claims at least 200 miles. I realize the Tesla has 2.5 times more voltage, but still... How do you calculate range? Is there a KWh number for a specific amount of miles? I'm surprised the thing weighed less than 800kg btw. In terms of weight, you could probably fit another 50 batteries. Nice job!

If Frank can't make the VR6 fit, an e-build is definitely my second choice. I'm investigating this alternative, but am wondering about an 6:1 gear reduction for a direct link. I'm considering a 12,000 RPM induction motor. Does anyone know if a Ford or Dana differential can be made to have a gear ratio of 6:1 or larger?

Speedy G

[ehansen007]

There's an EV calculator that can be used here.

http://www.evsource.com/battery_calculator.php

Now of course there are some tricks to increase mileage as with any car like hypermiling, tire pressure, etc however with this voltage and amperage, and the finished weight (projected at 2000 with driver). I would love to get more and I could have opted to run 180Ah but it would have double the cost of my pack. I'm hoping they will be able to fit 180Ah cells into the 100Ah boxes in the next few years and then make them cheaper as well. We'll see. The tesla system is quite different and yes there is a lot more voltage which is where they make it up. But I'm still not sure and will have to get a road test in to figure it out!


Vehicle Weight (lbs):2000lbs
Battery Type:Calb 100Ah LiFePo4
Cell Voltage Nominal (V) = 3.2
# of Cells = 50
Cell Weight (lbs) = 7
Pack Weight (lbs) = 357
Desired Range (miles): 65
Pack Voltage (V):160
Battery Ah rating (Ah):100
kWh = 16

[Rodster]

Hey Erik -
Just noticed your new project and need to say this is great, I can't wait to see this one on the street! You can generate some excitement by putting a Tesla logo somewhere.....

-wayne

[Gary Livingston]

There's an EV calculator that can be used here.

http://www.evsource.com/battery_calculator.php

Now of course there are some tricks to increase mileage as with any car like hypermiling, tire pressure, etc however with this voltage and amperage, and the finished weight (projected at 2000 with driver). I would love to get more and I could have opted to run 180Ah but it would have double the cost of my pack. I'm hoping they will be able to fit 180Ah cells into the 100Ah boxes in the next few years and then make them cheaper as well. We'll see. The tesla system is quite different and yes there is a lot more voltage which is where they make it up. But I'm still not sure and will have to get a road test in to figure it out!


Vehicle Weight (lbs):2000lbs
Battery Type:Calb 100Ah LiFePo4
Cell Voltage Nominal (V) = 3.2
# of Cells = 50
Cell Weight (lbs) = 7
Pack Weight (lbs) = 357
Desired Range (miles): 65
Pack Voltage (V):160
Battery Ah rating (Ah):100
kWh = 16

Luv luv luv ur build. Clean. Nice components selection.

16 kWh pack, depending how you drive... you should be able to reach 180 wh/m if its warm out and u baby it. That's about 89 miles . . if you take it to empty . . .which would be good. If you bottom balance and go BMS-less, it won't hurt much. . . except your pride.

Regarding the performance though. . . don't expect to reach the numbers shown in your graph. The reason is the battery pack. I love CALB cells and the grey ones are stiffer than the blue ones . . however, fresh off charge they will settle out at about 3.34 vac or 167 pack volts. If you pull 1000 amps from them, you won't hold 100 volts I don't expect. 100 kw /746 = 134 HPe. It's the sag that gets you. That number may be optimistic even. None the less. . . love it. I would build the same car in a heartbeat.

Couple tidbids. . . you could loose the pb accessory battery and use a lithium one. Save some weight. you could go without a battery if you only race, but on the street, I think it's a good choice.
Consider a couple Vicor batmod bricks to replace the dc/dc. Save some weight.

Will u use a hydraulic pressure transducer to drive your regen?

Cheers,
Gary

[Jodie]

Luv luv luv ur build. Clean. Nice components selection.

Regarding the performance though. . . don't expect to reach the numbers shown in your graph. The reason is the battery pack. I love CALB cells and the grey ones are stiffer than the blue ones . . however, fresh off charge they will settle out at about 3.34 vac or 167 pack volts. If you pull 1000 amps from them, you won't hold 100 volts I don't expect. 100 kw /746 = 134 HPe. It's the sag that gets you. That number may be optimistic even. None the less. . . love it. I would build the same car in a heartbeat.

The CA##FI cells have been proven to sag to 16% at 12C after 15 seconds.*
1200A = 140V.
It is the sag that gets you, that why these cell kick ***!
*http://evtv.me/2012/09/battery-joy-and-the-car-guy/

[jmccabe]

I first saw your build on EvWest's Facebook page. I'm also a happy customer building a FFR Roadster. EV of course ! My build has been picking up speed after some long delays. Cant wait to get back to Laguna Seca and beat that darn m3 BMW

Jeff

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fact...r-begin-4.html

[ehansen007]

Luv luv luv ur build. Clean. Nice components selection.

16 kWh pack, depending how you drive... you should be able to reach 180 wh/m if its warm out and u baby it. That's about 89 miles . . if you take it to empty . . .which would be good. If you bottom balance and go BMS-less, it won't hurt much. . . except your pride.

Regarding the performance though. . . don't expect to reach the numbers shown in your graph. The reason is the battery pack. I love CALB cells and the grey ones are stiffer than the blue ones . . however, fresh off charge they will settle out at about 3.34 vac or 167 pack volts. If you pull 1000 amps from them, you won't hold 100 volts I don't expect. 100 kw /746 = 134 HPe. It's the sag that gets you. That number may be optimistic even.

Cheers,
Gary

Thanks Gary. Thus far in the build I've managed to succumb to only a few rebuttals regarding this power plant so I feel pretty fortunate. This is because i have selected a team of three and they are : a battery expert, an exceptional engineer, and a guy who is both and has won at pikes peek in an EV. They are all being conservative however if they are saying we can get there, I'm going to believe them.

[ehansen007]

McCabe I do remember reading this post a while back. It looks awesome! Hopefully l'll see you at Laguna seca!

Thanks for chiming in Jodie. I've had to use Jacks video a few times to check the math!

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks Gary. Thus far in the build I've managed to succumb to only a few rebuttals regarding this power plant so I feel pretty fortunate. This is because i have selected a team of three and they are : a battery expert, an exceptional engineer, and a guy who is both and has won at pikes peek in an EV. They are all being conservative however if they are saying we can get there, I'm going to believe them.

Oh, don't get me wrong, . . I think you have an excellent selection of components. EV West is definitely outstanding. As for the C rate vs voltage drop, it will depend a lot on the temp of the cells. I think Damien first tested them and did a youtube on it. yup. . . here it is...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYfFeWwd9I with the 180 ah cell, it dropped to 2.0 volts at 12C, close to 40% voltage. Pretty much what I stated. Now, his temps were lower and if I recall, it was bloody hot when Jack did his testing.... and had been charging them 40ah cells pretty good before also. I can attest to the cold impacting C rate... lol, from up her in Canada it's been -25C pretty steady and I can't get much out of my CALB pack at these temps...lol Once you warm them up, they will stiffen up nicely. Unless there is a difference between the smaller cells and the bigger cells. . . I dunno. AT any rate, the grey's are definitely an awesome cell (for a range battery).

[ehansen007]

I'm using a 12 component harness from EZ to wire this car.



The master went right to work



A little wiring work.



Michael is the 12V master. I little bummed I didn't do it myself but with an electric car I need it done right...the first time!!!

[ehansen007]

Oh, don't get me wrong, . . I think you have an excellent selection of components. EV West is definitely outstanding. As for the C rate vs voltage drop, it will depend a lot on the temp of the cells. I think Damien first tested them and did a youtube on it. yup. . . here it is...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYfFeWwd9I with the 180 ah cell, it dropped to 2.0 volts at 12C, close to 40% voltage. Pretty much what I stated. Now, his temps were lower and if I recall, it was bloody hot when Jack did his testing.... and had been charging them 40ah cells pretty good before also. I can attest to the cold impacting C rate... lol, from up her in Canada it's been -25C pretty steady and I can't get much out of my CALB pack at these temps...lol Once you warm them up, they will stiffen up nicely. Unless there is a difference between the smaller cells and the bigger cells. . . I dunno. AT any rate, the grey's are definitely an awesome cell (for a range battery).

That Youtube test was also pulling 2000A when it went to 2.0V. Did you watch the rest when he went to 1500 and only dropped to 2.5V. I'll be maxing out at 1000A with a smaller battery at 12C we're predicting 10% loss. We've built in a couple extra cells to get us to 160V and 10% x 160 is 16V. Subtract that from our pack and you get 144V.....which is.....wait for it.....the controller voltage! But still, you never know.


Here's what I'm dealing with for Temps.

[Gary Livingston]

That Youtube test was also pulling 2000A when it went to 2.0V. Did you watch the rest when he went to 1500 and only dropped to 2.5V. I'll be maxing out at 1000A with a smaller battery at 12C we're predicting 10% loss. We've built in a couple extra cells to get us to 160V and 10% x 160 is 16V. Subtract that from our pack and you get 144V.....which is.....wait for it.....the controller voltage! But still, you never know.

Hey. Ya, I watched the whole video. And I've been watching Jacks videos since Matt worked there back in the day. I don't watch them any more coz I just don't have the time. I've even drank Jacks awesome home made whiskey in his garage. Lol. That was the first EVCCON. I LOVE YOUR BUILD. I'm going to do one, electric as well. I can't think of much I would change from what you're doing. I have done a few DC motor builds and I also own a Chevy Volt I really love the regen. I have 13" motor and a Shiva in my truck now. The Shiva is the same 3000 amp (1600 hp capable) controller EV West has in their car. In fact, interestingly enough, the SN on their Shiva is 001 I believe and I have 002. I actually funded the first one and Evnetics asked me if I would mind letting mine go to EV West due to some publicity they were prepping for. I didn't mind, I wasn't quite ready. So, tell the boys there they owe me a spin and a tour around that awesome shop when I get down that way. Lol. Will u use a hyd pressure transducer to drive your regen?

Ya, as for the amperage Damien was pulling, he was using 180 ah cell, so 2000 amps is just over 11C with a 38% voltage drop. The 1500 amps on that cell is 8.3 C with about 22% drop. Temperature does make a big difference. Carbon actually drops in resistance as it gets hotter. I have a pack of A123 32157's and they will give up 65 C when they are warmed up. There may be some differences also in the size of the conductors inside the smaller CA40FI vs the CA180FI so perhaps it will do a bit bitter than the larger cells based on C rate

[Gary Livingston]

That Youtube test was also pulling 2000A when it went to 2.0V. Did you watch the rest when he went to 1500 and only dropped to 2.5V. I'll be maxing out at 1000A with a smaller battery at 12C we're predicting 10% loss. We've built in a couple extra cells to get us to 160V and 10% x 160 is 16V. Subtract that from our pack and you get 144V.....which is.....wait for it.....the controller voltage! But still, you never know.

Hey. Ya, I watched the whole video. And I've been watching Jacks videos since Matt worked there back in the day. I don't watch them any more coz I just don't have the time. I've even drank Jacks awesome home made whiskey in his garage. Lol. That was the first EVCCON. I LOVE YOUR BUILD. I'm going to do one, electric as well. I can't think of much I would change from what you're doing. I have done a few DC motor builds and I also own a Chevy Volt I really love the regen. I have 13" motor and a Shiva in my truck now. The Shiva is the same 3000 amp (1600 hp capable) controller EV West has in their car. In fact, interestingly enough, the SN on their Shiva is 001 I believe and I have 002. I actually funded the first one and Evnetics asked me if I would mind letting mine go to EV West due to some publicity they were prepping for. I didn't mind, I wasn't quite ready. So, tell the boys there they owe me a spin and a tour around that awesome shop when I get down that way. Lol. Will u use a hyd pressure transducer to drive your regen?

Ya, as for the amperage Damien was pulling, he was using 180 ah cell, so 2000 amps is just over 11C with a 38% voltage drop. The 1500 amps on that cell is 8.3 C with about 22% drop. Temperature does make a big difference. Carbon actually drops in resistance as it gets hotter. I have a pack of A123 32157's and they will give up 65 C when they are warmed up. There may be some differences also in the size of the conductors inside the smaller CA40FI vs the CA180FI so perhaps it will do a bit bitter than the larger cells based on C rate. That's just a wild a$$ guess tho with no data to support.

I actually have enough components now to do an 818 electric, but it would be DC drive motor. It would have much more torque, but no regen. I'd really like to do it AC. I just wish the Curtis 8501 did higher voltage.

Oh, yes, question, I noticed different options when ordering, (turbo etc) does it matter for the EV build and which did u pick? I don't know much about the Subaru componentry yet, but I'm a-learnin'.

Had to re-post. On my hand held and it's brutal. Lost some content.

[ehansen007]

It was a hard choice between AC and DC. Even Michael and Matt were disagreeing! On one hand you have a torque monster that would just crush about anything and with that you had to change brushes and had a motor that wasn't as civil. On the other you had smooth power, no brushes and regen. Really the new vs. the old tech. As Bob put it, how many new cars do you see with a DC motor in it? I understand if you are doing DC then a Soliton 1 with a Warp 9 or 11 is the way to go. There is a big price difference too however what you save in motor you pay more for in batteries since you run higher voltage. I'm just a rookie though and haven't driven or built either to this point!

For the chassis, no it doesn't matter which one you pick. Just pick one and go man! You could build a sweet DC powered one with little to no modifications to the frame.

[Gary Livingston]

It was a hard choice between AC and DC. Even Michael and Matt were disagreeing! On one hand you have a torque monster that would just crush about anything and with that you had to change brushes and had a motor that wasn't as civil. On the other you had smooth power, no brushes and regen. Really the new vs. the old tech. As Bob put it, how many new cars do you see with a DC motor in it? I understand if you are doing DC then a Soliton 1 with a Warp 9 or 11 is the way to go. There is a big price difference too however what you save in motor you pay more for in batteries since you run higher voltage. I'm just a rookie though and haven't driven or built either to this point!

For the chassis, no it doesn't matter which one you pick. Just pick one and go man! You could build a sweet DC powered one with little to no modifications to the frame.

I like the AC route also. All electric motors are really AC motors. . . even the "DC" ones. The main difference is that commutation happens in the controller as opposed to the commutator (with brushes) on the "DC motors". I don't think there is a real difference in the "power" related to being smooth, since power is power but I know what u mean. . .I think the regen has a nicer feel if done right. Thats why I asked how you were driving yours. I do have a Soliton1 also and will do 1000 amps (battery and motor) up to 340 volts. Thing is, if you are only using one motor, u have to limit it to 200 max and even that requires some tweaking. If you use two motors, then you can take advantage of the higher voltage and if your pack is stiff enough, get close to that 400 hp rating. Sag always detracts. I have 4 different controllers right from 500 amps right up to 3000 amps. I also have 4 different motors, 6.7", 9", 11" and a 13". I don't buy Warp motors though. . . since you can modify fork truck motors to work just as well if you know what to look for and what to do to them. In fact some would argue that the GE motors are even better. The Warp motors all started off as fork lift motors anyways. As for voltage of the pack, it's not really true about needing higher voltage for DC. In fact, AC motor systems typically go much higher in voltage than DC drive systems. The only problem is that the ones available for DIY's like us, (means affordable) they aren't so high in voltage. The OEM's all use AC as you say and higher voltage at that. 300 to 500 or even 600 isn't unusual. Battery costs are similar since you pay for kwh whether it be lower voltage and higher Ah or vice versa.
I could do a 1000 hp DC set up in an 818 with ridiculous torque but, I don't think it would be as practical as what you are doing. It would save me a bunch of money though. I just may have to sell some of my toys.

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I have been reading a lot about the Subaru drive train. . . trying to decide what is best. That big 5 speed transaxle seems to be overkill. You may not use all the gears. I had a 5 speed manual in my first build and I would start in 2nd gear, shift to 4th and unless I went on a super highway I didn't use 5th either. Do you know how much that tranny weighs? I can't seem to find a weight on it. Looking at the dual AC35 set up, it is likely the easiest way to go. If I did a DC drive, I would like just use a 2 speed and a separate differential. . . like maybe the one out of the WRX rear . . if I could find one strong enough.

Do you know how much the chasis weighs without any drivetrain? What about the gas engine? Just wondering how much "electrical stuff" I can pack in before exceeding the weight of the ICE version.

[Wayne Presley]

Do you know how much that tranny weighs? I can't seem to find a weight on it.

Weighs 112 lbs right out of the car and 92 lbs with center diff/transfer gears removed

[Gary Livingston]

Weighs 112 lbs right out of the car and 92 lbs with center diff/transfer gears removed

Oh! thanks very much. I thought it might be heavier than that.... I did find in one other thread, the weight of some things. Motor and trans totalling about 450 lbs. approx.

[ehansen007]

Spent last Saturday wiring and more wiring!


Getting the controllers wired in tandem as well as running all wires for gauges, ignition, throttle, etc to the front.


Then I went to work on wiring the controllers to the motors. This was COOL. I learned how to use a HYDRAULIC crimper to fasten leads onto 2/0 wire! This was a process and because these cables stand out like Carrot Top in Japan you work hard to ensure they are aesthetically appealing.


These cables are husky too so you have to think before you route. Shrink wrap is key! There will be 150V going through these at 500Amps so crossing of the streams could be "bad" All high voltage wire in this car is designated as orange to include conduit.

[ehansen007]

Spit balling here. Because I won't be running a radiator in the front and won't need the hole, I plan on covering it up and creating a more visually appealing nose scheme to bring in the headlights. I'm a fan of the large black fascia of todays cars whether it's functional or not!