New guy, wanting to build a MkIV Roadster...have a few questions to ask

[pyronuc]

So I've been dreaming of building a FFR Roadster ever since the late 90's when I was in high-school and had no way to afford it. As the years have gone by, I think I'm finally in a position to try to make this dream come true, and I am looking at possibly ordering a kit and beginning my journey next year. I have a few questions, if the forum will indulge me. I've tried searching but haven't really turned up any definitive answers, so please forgive me if this has been covered before. I hear this board is a wealth of knowledge, and I'm hoping you guys can help me out. I'll try to keep this short.

1) Power steering/brakes -- Are either necessary, preferred, or even recommended for the MkIV Roadster, as it is so lightweight? I am looking into purchasing the complete kit, with the Wilwood pedal box, rather than using a donor car, and from reading through the build manual, it looks like the Wilwood kit has dual manual-only brake master cylinders, and would likely need extensive modifications to make it a powered setup. Also, it seems like the complete kit comes with a non-powered steering rack, and I believe I read somewhere that power steering on such a lightweight, high horsepower, short wheelbase car makes them very twitchy. As long as a manual steering rack and manual brakes work well, I'd rather not fool with trying to power either of these, due to extra cost and modifications needed. Any input on the drive-ability of a manual steering rack and manual brakes for on-road driving would be appreciated.

2) Weather resistant interior -- Is this possible? I am considering getting the FFR top for my build, because I intend to take this car on some road trips and would like to be protected if/when it rains. However, the top seems somewhat cumbersome to install, and from what I have read only marginally protects from rain. I wonder if it's possible to use weatherproof carpeting, possibly putting in some drain holes in the floorboard, and I also wonder if the FFR vinyl roadster seats hold up well to getting wet in the rain. I would be using a car cover/tonneau cover when parked, but I worry about the interior getting wet while driving. I am used to taking motorcycle trips in the rain, so I'm not as worried about getting wet myself. I am also considering trying to use dynamat, or something similar for noise deadening and heat insulation, rather than simply having carpet laying on the bare aluminum paneling, and I wanted to know if this is advisable.

3) Engine/transmission selection -- I have done a little bit of looking online for crate engine and transmissions. So far, I'm leaning towards this setup here. Has anyone done business with this company? It seems like they have a line of engine packages specialized for Cobra builds, so I would imagine someone here has worked with them. From their website, they seem like a very thorough company that fully run tests their engines, and they seem reputable. I like the fact that they sell this as a complete one-stop setup, and I would be getting the complete engine, with the clutch and bellhousing, and the transmission, all matched up. Takes the guesswork out of it, trying to figure out what parts will match up with others. I know the FFR MkIV Complete Kit Build Manual (which I've purchased and read through) says the TKO-600 transmission will work with the kit, so hopefully I wouldn't have many troubles with this setup. I know there are some vendors on the site, but from the links I've clicked, it doesn't seem like any sell complete engine and transmission packages, but I could be wrong. It seems like these Engine Factory guys have a reasonable price, but I'm interested if anyone can point me in the right direction to get the same thing (or better) at a better price.

Thanks in advance for anyone's time who reads this post and helps me out with any tips, advice, or suggestions. I am hoping this forum will be a good resource to get answers to my questions (I'm sure I'll have more to come). Like I said, I've dreamed about having a Cobra for a long time now, and I'm excited to try to make this happen, but I want to go into this well-informed so I can do it the right way.

Thanks again, guys,
Adam

[Rich]

These are the questions that my Dad and I asked when we were starting our build.

1) He wanted power steering, I didn't. We ended up getting an electric unit that is adjustable - all the way down to off. Other builders and owners were similarly divided in questioning. The only consensus seemed to arise around "If you are going to go racing and driving your car at track days, get power steering."

As far as brakes, we just got the upgraded Wilwood kit from FFR but we aren't powering it. In fact, I can't recall having seen one with power brakes.

2) I can't help you with this other than to say that if you are comfortable getting wet on a motorcycle, you'll be fine in a MkIV! I would try hard to use only synthetic materials in the interior if you are planning to have it be a wet/dry interior.

3) Your hyperlink looks like a good choice. I have heard good things about Engine Factory, but don't have any personal experience with them.
Check on the warranty wherever you buy.
I've heard that overdoing it on the horsepower is unwise. 450 or less is the advice we have taken to heart.

[pyronuc]

We ended up getting an electric unit that is adjustable - all the way down to off.

Could you possibly tell me what sort of power steering unit you went with? The kits from Engine Factory have an option to add power steering pump, pulley, and belt when you order it, but it's about $700 extra from them. Plus I would need to get a powered steering rack to go along with it, but that would get me a traditional pulley driven power steering setup. I'm interested in what you went with, especially if it would come out better cost-wise.

The Wilwood brake kit seems like a pretty substantial set-up, and in a 2,200 lb car, it should hopefully be all I would need for on-road driving. I think I might be okay without power brakes, but I really do want to get power steering. I just remember reading somewhere that someone said it made their car too twitchy. But I'd definitely like to know what electric setup you got, especially if it's adjustable.

And I agree, due to the light weight of the car, I don't want to overdo it horsepower-wise. Engine Factory has another 351w engine/transmission package that is basically the same, but different cam and less compression that they rate at 400hp, and it's about $1,000 cheaper, so I might go that route. I'm sure even "stepping down" to 400 hp, it would still be plenty of power in such a light car.

Thanks for the reply.

[QSL]

My comments... also feel free to check out our build threads in our signature.

1) we have manual steering and wildwood manual brakes. I am VERY happy with both. I also wanted a different feel then my daily driver. I love the way the car responds and drives. However, for our coupe we are going electric power steering too. You can get this from fast freedies. The reason we are going power on the coupe is because my wife will be driving this car. The manual steering is too heavy at slow speeds for a small woman.

2) Cant really comment, we don't ever drive when it looks like it may rain. Dynamat type product is definitely recommended. We used fatmat because its cheap and worked great!

3) Engine combo looks decent. However, don't shy away from HP. A lot will tell you, that you will die with a lot of HP. We went with a 427W rated at about 530HP and I have never been scared when driving it. Some important things to keep in mind though... Great tires, long throttle throw, conservative driving style, CORRECT TIRE PRESSURE!!!!!

Good luck and congrats!!! You wont be sorry. Everything about the experience is first class!

[edwardb]

My comments:

1. You ask about the Wilwood pedal box (standard with the Mk4 complete kit) but a couple of the answers seemed to assume the complete Wilwood setup including the pedal box and FFR provided Wilwood front and rear brakes. The complete Wilwood setup (pedal box and front/rear brakes) is not designed to be power and does not need it. There are mods available to add Hydroboost to a Wilwood pedal box (Forte's) or vacuum assist (Whitby's) which can be nice for the more OEM style front/rear brakes. But definitely not required, and I'm fairly certain both of these mods remove the front/rear balance bar of the Wilwood setup. Power steering though is a whole other discussion. It's not only about racing. The Roadster is very satisfactory to drive with the provided manual steering. You won't be disappointed. But PS if set up properly does not need to be twitchy. Also keep in mind that PS is about steering effort (e.g. while parking) but it's also about being able to set up the front end with more caster to actually make it less twitchy. As many have pointed out, lots of people have added power steering after the fact. Not aware of anyone who removed it. I do not have PS in my Mk3 build. I'm installing it my Mk4 build. Guess you know where I'm leaning? The best solution would be for you to find other Roadsters and get a chance to ride or even drive.

2. Don't drive my cars in the rain. Know many that do, and the materials provided with the kit hold up reasonably well. I don't think you have to do anything really special.

3. Tons of choice regarding engines, and the subject is debated a lot. These cars are wicked fast from 300 HP and up. It all depends on what you want, how you're going to use the car, and what you want to pay for. Again, riding and driving would be a good thing. I wouldn't limit your vendor selection to only those that can provide a complete solution, e.g. engine, trans, etc. though. The parts are all pretty standard, and if you build one of these you can easily hang a bell housing, clutch, trans, etc.

One other suggestion. "How to Build Cobra Kit Cars" by D. Brian Smith is a pretty good resource. If you don't have it already, I'd suggest it. Goes through all the choices you have to make, what options are out there, and then a pretty detailed description of a very nice Mk4 build. Good luck!

[pyronuc]

Thanks everyone for the very quick replies, I really appreciate it. So far, I think I'm leaning towards just going with manual steering and brakes. I may decide to add the power steering later, but I'm sure being a bigger guy that the manual steering should be okay. As for brakes, I'm definitely looking at getting the whole Wilwood setup, not just the pedal box that comes with the complete kit. So with the Wilwood disk brakes front and rear, I think that should be sufficient, from what you guys have said.

For the engine and transmission, I'm thinking about sticking with that 351w setup from Engine Factory. It seems like a good balance for me, between cost and the desire for more horsepower. I could spend more and get a higher horsepower engine, but at some point it's just not worth the added cost, especially with such a lightweight car. I think anything around 400hp should suit my needs perfectly for this build. I'm not locked into buying the package from Engine Factory, but I do think it's convenient to get it all as a one-stop deal, and I like what I've seen on their website as far as their setup, run-testing and tuning, and crating of engines. It seems like a good company and a fair price. Then again, who knows how many more times I'll change my mind before I end up putting down cash on something.

Speaking of cash...that's the hard part. I've wanted to build a FFR Cobra since mid-90s, but I've finally decided to get serious about it, and thinking about saving up the cash is killing me. Right now, I don't expect to be able to buy my kit for another year or so, maybe two. I don't know of any way to finance it, since it's a kit and not a car, and I really don't want to do a high-interest rate signature loan, so I guess it's just going to be me trying to squirrel away whatever I can save. That is, unless there's some magical kit-builder financing place I'm not aware of...

Thanks again for the help, and any advice along these lines anyone else has is welcome, too. So far I'm leaning towards the manual steering and brakes, with the full Wilwood kit, and the 351w setup from Engine Factory.

[pyronuc]

One other suggestion. "How to Build Cobra Kit Cars" by D. Brian Smith is a pretty good resource. If you don't have it already, I'd suggest it. Goes through all the choices you have to make, what options are out there, and then a pretty detailed description of a very nice Mk4 build. Good luck!

Thanks for the tip, I just placed my order on Amazon.com for my copy! I took a peek at it with their "look inside" feature, and it definitely seems like it will be a good reference and a good read. Thanks a lot!

[skullandbones]

Hi Adam,

Since you went to the trouble to elaborate, I will too.

1) I love my PS. I have a donor rack and pump. I carry about 7 degrees of castor which really makes carving in and out of a turn fun. I've tried it with and without the castor and I like the higher castor setting. Also, if you want a little more dampened feel, you can cut a small amount out of the spring in the pump (I hear) to give a little less power assist. That's really a cheap and effective way to do it. I'm still trying to decide if I want to do that or not. The power brakes with the Wilwood pedals: don't think it is easily done. However, mine work great as is. The bias setting allows for good balancing and the feel is solid but not too demanding (using PBR 2 pot in front and Cobra single pot in rear). I feel in command at all times.

2) Living in AZ the liquid sun shine isn't an issue but the sun is. Have you checked out the old vintage top? I am not sure if it will translate to the MKIV but it would be great if you were able to make it work. I plan on checking that out myself but I have an MKIII. I'm with you, the luxury top is pretty tedious and involved to operate.

3) I'm not sure if many are even sure what 400+ hp feels like in one of these cars. I know it is manageable in a muscle car but they usually have a longer wheel base and more iron to hold them down. A friend of mine warned me: make sure you know it's headed in the right direction when you stomp on the right pedal. There are several vendors who offer engine packages; so happy shopping! Good luck, WEK.

[Gordon Levy]

I am a pro builder and racer of these cars and can answer most all of your questions based on experience. Feel free to give me a call at 520-494-2745 and we can talk at length.
If you want more power than the 400hp you are looking at from the get go, buy the bigger engine, you will be saying "i should have".

[pyronuc]

Feel free to give me a call and we can talk at length.

What would be the best time of day to get you at that number, afternoon/evening? I will be working long hours on nightshift for the next few weeks, but I can give you a call on an off day whenever it works for you. And thanks for any advice you can give me. If you've built as many of these FFRs as your signature says, I'm sure you can answer all the questions I have now, plus the questions I don't know about yet.

[Gordon Levy]

Pretty much call any time within reason, 8am-7pm PST

[pyronuc]

Pretty much call any time within reason, 8am-7pm PST

Thanks a lot, man. I should be off work Monday, so I'll try to give you a call sometime Monday afternoon. Looking forward to picking your brain just a bit and figuring out how to get started with my project. I've always loved working on cars, and I feel pretty confident that a Factory Five build is well within my capabilities. But its still a big project and hard to know just where to start, and I really want to try to get some good plans laid out before I start buying things.

[2bking]

Hi Adam,

Since you have some time before your purchase you can save a lot of money with a donor car just using the engine, transmission, rear axle, and a lot of little parts needed here and there such as bolts and fittings. Finding the correct hardware to put the drive train together is a real pain.

I got the complete kit and am using the Coyote engine. Ford claims the Coyote engine makes 412 HP min and I've found a lot of dyno numbers showing 450+ with 4 tube headers and better intake filters such as the configuration in these kits. Check out Ford Racing or Fortes for all the parts as I think you can easily go this route for the same money as in your first post. The Coyote doesn't look period correct but it sure fills up the engine compartment. So back to the donor car, this Coyote engine can be found in the 2011-13 Mustang SVT Cobra and 2011-13 F150 pick-ups. If you can find one of these wrecked, it'll make a super donor.

King

[lbperry]

Pyronuc; You've got a highly respected FFR builder right in your neighborhood. Wayne Presley over in Enterprise has built or help build several FFR roadsters. He's kind of hip deep in the new 818 right now I think, but it would probably be worth your time to get over to his shop and talk to him.
Good Luck

[pyronuc]

If you can find one of these wrecked, it'll make a super donor.

Thanks for the advice. I have given some thought to doing a Coyote build, but initially was planning to use all new parts, Coyote crate engine, and complete FFR kit, rather than a donor. Then I changed my mind to the carbureted 351w for the classic look. If I did get a donor, though, I could use the FFR donor kit instead and save some cash, especially since a wrecked donor should cost less than the $15,000 or so I'm looking at for crate engine/transmission. The only problem is finding a donor I feel comfortable using, especially if it's a wrecked one. I don't want to wind up spending thousands on a pile of useless parts that have been damaged beyond use, and I'm afraid of buying a donor and not being able to detect the damage until its too late and I start stripping it down.

Also, with an EFI engine, there's all the issues of dealing with a computer, and having to have some way to tune the computer (although probably not much tuning would need to be done anyway, but still...). If I get a carbureted small-block V8, there's no computer to fool with. Plus, something just looks "right" about a carbureted small-block with the oval "Cobra" air cleaner and valve covers, and the long-tube headers. With the Coyote, it just wouldn't have that "look," and I'd have to run the 4-into-1 shorty headers, into a j-pipe, into a 1-4 at the flange, just to have it go back 4-1 at the muffler. I definitely want the 4-1 collecter at the muffler for the right look outside of the car, but going from 4-1 for the j-pipe, back to 4, back to 1 seems kind of like a cheat, you know? Looks right from the outside, but open the hood and there's the shorty header and the j-pipe looking back at you (not that you could see it that well with the huge heads of the Coyote anyway, but you know).

Anyway, maybe it's just me being too picky and stuck on the look of the small-block carbureted long-tube header setup. But just rough pricing, I am staring at probably $45,000 in parts to build what I want, that way, if not more, and it would be good to save some of that. If I can find a good donor Coyote Mustang before I buy my kit, I'll seriously consider the donor car route. It's definitely something to consider, and I'm not ruling it out. But man, that carbureted 351w with long-tube headers would sure look awesome...

So...any good source to find wrecked but usable Mustangs for donors? Searching eBay doesn't bring up anything promising, and I don't want to waste money on a giant pile of broken parts I can't use, so I want to get a good one, if I go that route.

You've got a highly respected FFR builder right in your neighborhood. Wayne Presley over in Enterprise has built or help build several FFR roadsters. He's kind of hip deep in the new 818 right now I think, but it would probably be worth your time to get over to his shop and talk to him.
Good Luck

Definitely sounds like someone I should get in touch with. Enterprise is right around the corner, only about an hour away from me. Any contact info for him you could share, or can I just look him up on the forums? Being so close, if he's got the experience building these, he could be a valuable person to get in good with to get some advice, and possibly lend a hand at some point in the future if needed.

[lbperry]

Wayne is one of the forum admins and his company, Very Cool Parts, is an advertiser.
Good Luck

[Rich]

Fast Freddies, I think.

[CraigS]

Forget the donor, it is so old now that it is just not worth it. The complete kit comes w/ the latest FFR engineered front suspension and it is the best way to go. It also has NEW wiring harness. I believe a 351 is the best engine. You can get a stock short block, put pistons to get the compression to 9.5 or 10 to one, add an Edelbrock Performer heads and intake and a very mild cam an you have 400 hp. If you have the cash, that engine factory package is a nice way to go but it's not needed. Also, although there are limited individual gear ratios available, the TKO 500 is just fine w/ a 351. PS can be done very ininexpensively w/ a rack 3.0 turns, a Mustang pump with mustang lines all from autozone. Stepping up from that you go either for Breezes PS pump and bracket setup of Fast Freddies electric PS system. The rack stays the same. The car can be made water resistant and that is a very good word choice. You will do a lot of that before the body is installed sealing skillions of little joints at all the aluminum pieces. I have an APE hardtop and it is far from water tight so I would look at the soft tops available.