Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[svanlare]

I found an instrument harness at the junkyard. It has the connectors for the panel, but the wrong connectors for the harness in my car (auto A/C vs manual A/C which have different connectors). Given I only need a handful of wires, I'll add my own connectors (building my own harness essentially) and solve that problem.

I have a whole handful of connectors i need from the rest of the car that didn't come with the donor. Brian over at iWire was a huge help! He sourced the connectors for me and dropped them in a box that he is shipping my way for a very reasonable sum. I am tremendously grateful. That left just the fuel pump controller and I found one on ebay and it is on its way too. Even If I'm not making progress, at least my credit card still is

For the vacation, I was actually planning on scheduling one to work on the car. I have a schedule that I've been trying to hit, and the last several months I've made very little progress on the car and I'm now officially behind on my 2 year build plan. So somewhere in the next month or so, I want to take some time off from work and push through the wiring and perhaps even get to first start. Then I'm sure I'll get stuck on the body for a while

[Frank818]

It's really good Brian sent you those connectors, little things eat up so much time! But I can tell you after you do all that, you'll be so proud of the result that you won't think again of all the time and work you spent on the wiring.

Yeah I'll do that this summer, during my 3 weeks I'll be most of it on the car and see if I can make it in 2015. Otherwise it'll be a 2 years project ending Spring 2016.

[Frank818]

While I am waiting for the 5th week after my mechanic to finish a racing Porsche, there is nothing I can do on the car. Lost time.

But, the Corrado is sold. This is its last video ever. I almost cried to let her go, but life changes, I moved on, I had to do it.

https://youtu.be/aBrWQzc36Q4

Hum, why I don't have the video window showing in the post... oh well.

[Tamra]

I'm sure you can find something to save you time later. Are all your brackets painted? Maybe assemble the doors? Is your interior done?

Sorry to hear about selling your car!

[Hindsight]

Sorry to hear about the bitter sweet parting of your Corrado. Congrats on the sale though. I'm sure you'll have about 100x more fun in the 818. The turbo VR6 is going to sound amazing back there and the torque will be nuts. I hope you are going to invest in some electronic traction control!

I'm a VW guy myself.... have owned 14 or 15 VWs (I lose track) and own three now. In 1998 I put a G60 engine from a wrecked 1990 Corrado into an '83 Rabbit GTI that was my daily driver for a couple of years. For the time, that was a fun and faster sleeper... still my favorite car I've ever had, but I'm hoping the 818 will take that title when finished! I really like the Corrado.... wish VW would bring them back, or the Scirocco. They keep talking about it but never do it. The 2015 version I saw just looks like a golf with a squished top.

Here's my old '83 back in the day. I have only two pictures of her That was before the days of digital cameras. Or rather, they were out but they took 3.5" floppy discs and more money than I had back then.

[Frank818]

Tamra, you're right, I have not been doing "nothing at all" actually. POR-15'ed my door frames, soon the hinges, spent a lot of time searching and prepping for my next steps, stressed out when I read people's posts about body fitting , bought some tools, parts, etc. The doors I wanted to gap them perfectly with the side panels before I'd drill and cut to fit the striker and stuff.


Hey Hindsight, I see why you seemed to have some interest on the fitting of the VR6 in the 818. You might have mentioned quickly already about the VWs, but 15??? That is new. lolll That's a lot of VWs. And yes, the old Rabbit GTI and Golf GTI 16v were 2 of the TOP 3 VWs, I believe. VW made a huge step fwd with the Corrado (first car ever with a speed activated rear spoiler) and then Corrado VR6, design, new engine, awesome interior, fully equipped (heated seats, electric Recaro seats, heated mirrors, come on in 93 for a car almost the price of a Ford Probe!), but they miserably failed to bring back the spirits of both the Scirocco and Corrado. Too conservative, no innovation.

People were also swapping the VR6 in the Rabbits. But I think it cuts its spirit. BTW awesome roads where your Rabbit was. I wish I could drive on these here.

Yes my goal is to keep that engine alive for many more years, keep the VW spirit in the 818 (cluster, seats, engine) and test-fit many exhaust configurations to find the best noise! That sound is worth a lot of money to me and I am sure some day I will thank my old Corrado for giving me the opportunity to keep its heart and revive it within an insane car (818).

[Hindsight]

Let's see.... in order: '68 bug, 83 Rabbit GTI with a G60, 81 Rabbit Diesel 4 speed manual, 87 Jetta GLI 16v, 1992 Jetta GLI 16V, 1997 Jetta GLX VR6, 2003 Jetta GLI 24V, 2004 Audi S4 (sort of a VW), 1993 VW Eurovan MV (that I converted to a 5-speed manual), 2002 B5.5 Passat 1.8T, 2008 Passat 2.0T, 2013 Passat TDI, 2013 Golf 2.5. So I guess that's only 13! Those are the only vehicles I have owned. Still have the Van, the Passat TDI, and the Golf 2.5. So it's definitely fair to say I'm a VW guy. I really like Subies too... I just don't like having AWD cars in Atlanta. Added weight, complexity, and worse MPG.

Yea I have seen the Rabbit VR6 swaps, and even the MKII VR6 swaps. Some of them even turbo charged. Back when I had my G60 GTI, a friend of mine had a 1996 GTI VR6 with a Vortech on it. Pretty sure he was one of the first in the country to get that setup. I could never keep up with him in the G60.... that thing was a rocket, especially for the time (cars were not that fast in 1998). I decided some time ago to stop pursuing performance in front wheel drive vehicles which is why I got out of performance VWs and started looking for RWD options. Oh yeah, during my Portland days, I got to know Berndt Arndt and Collin Gyenes, both VW racers you may have heard of. Berndt drag races a turbo VR6 MK1 rabbit and Collin (who works at Techtonics Tuning) used to drag race what I'm pretty sure was the quickest MKI Rabbit of the time. He was turning in consistent 12.8's on an 8V motor. The secret was all in the head work he did himself. 12.8 was smoking fast in 1998. For reference, my G60 GTI ran 14.6 @ 94mph. Not fast by todays standards but compare it to the Mustang GTs and M3s of the day and it's fast.

The pics above were taken in Portland Oregon, where I am from. Yes.... some VERY nice roads out there. Nothing like them here in Georgia unfortunately.

Hope you get your 818 back from the mechanic soon so you can get back to it! Don't let me beat you to the go-kart stage hahah (at the rate I'm going, I doubt that is much of a risk).

[flynntuna]

Being a VW guy you've probably seen the Jetta truck conversion that Dave's brother Mark is selling at smith performance. Kinda cool.

http://www.smythkitcars.com/#!

[Hindsight]

Hah, no I hadn't seen that. Very cool that people are taking a DIY approach to VW's dropping the pickup here. I always thought the Rabbit Pickup was a great idea.

I really wish VW would bring the "California" over here.... the new version of the Eurovan (T6 platform) that they dropped in the US back in 2004, with the pop-top.
volkswagen-california_w.jpg

[flynntuna]

My high school football coach had a 69 camper bus very cool.

[Frank818]

A Jetta Ute, the Australians would love it! With a V8 though...

Hind if you don't call yourself a VW guy, then I am totally nothing. Might want to go back to Oregon, if life lets you.
AWD might be good if you have traction problems and can't control it any other way. AWD is AWESOME and a must to me during winter in Canada, but you're far from there and obviously I won't drive the 818 in winter.

Techtonics is still alive?? Wow. That reminds me of VF-Enginering, when they first started production of their first ever SC kit, the Corrado was available, it was in the late 90s. I had the first SC model, then there was a lot of problems with the SC belt slipping and I had a second kit, with toothed belt, they never released to anyone else and then moved to a 3rd kit with a Vortech SC, which I've owned as well.

I say turbo all the way.

You made me rethink my go-kart plan. I was thinking I could make it before Sept, I will work on it mostly during my vacations at end of July, but then I will hit "parts time" on the exhaust and intake piping, time to order some parts, one month later I will receive and continue. Lost time of the go-kart is 1 month. Maybe I should try and guess the parts I would need, in correct amount, and place an order earlier. If I do it right, I would save one month and would go-kart in very early Aug. I'll mock-up my design and see.

I really wish VW would bring the "California" over here....

Typo here, what you wanted to say is "I really wish VW would bring California over here".

[Frank818]

Well I did it, I managed to weigh the car under 1800lbs!! 1042lbs to be exact.

2015-06-20 07.16.48.jpg2015-06-20 07.17.54.jpg

Oh, right, I forgot to mention I've got more weight distribution up front, no engine, no gearbox, no seats, no most of the interior, no fluid at all and no body panels. At least I can say I've seen a number under 1800!

Seriously, I have started on the single wiper mod (tnx to matteo) and mounting part of the door frames. As stupid as it may seem, I realized the door hinges fit on the wrong side. The left hinges must go on the right door frame and the right hinges on the left door frame, otherwise they aren't vertical and the door is totally out of whack. Strange thing, but as long as it works, I'm fine with it.

[Frank818]

Happy 4th to all US guys (and Tamra) out there!

Car should be in the shop within a week to get the damn engine in. 26 weeks wasted waiting for my mech for various reasons, but that's life, he had a lot of issues with other cars so I did other things and I am damn ready to restart once the engine is in.

My wiper is installed, but I took a huge risk, I don't know if the windscreen is at its final place and I have never fitted the hood. But I had to work on the car and do something while I was waiting.

[Tamra]

Thanks! Happy 4th to you too!

[Speedy G]

Hey Frank, did you end up wiring the Isis kit? I'm thinking of getting it and am wondering how your experience with it was. I saw your post on the electrical forum. Is the 3-cell kit enough/too much? Do you have any recomendations looking back?

Also, we're all dying to see the pics of your kit with the VR6 in it. When do you think?

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Yeah if that racing Porsche my mech is finishing can get the F out I will be in on the next day. He's waiting on control arms for the Porsche and they sent the wrong parts. Then on next shipment the parts were held in Singapore. And I don't tell you all the little things that went wrong since beginning of May! I am waiting for 3 months now. And lost 4 months last year waiting for him to be ready to get my engine out of the car. Such valuable time wasted in the abyss of Time. The most frustrating moment in my build and one of the most frustrating in my life since many years. When I work on a project, my P1 is to keep it rolling. Always do something, that way you see it moving and progressing. If you stop cuz of time wasted (not talking about vacations and stuff), you lose your ideas, you lose your pace, you lose passion, you can't see the end of it, you get rid of it and lose all your money.

I am working maybe 2-4h a week on other stuff on the car, but I can't do much and I take risk when I do something cuz everything else depends on where and how the engine will fit in. Apparently, I should have the engine by end of July.



As for ISIS, which is called Infinity Box now, I would certainly use that kit again, it minimizes a lot of wiring, relays and stuff, I can get it configured almost like I want, but there are things it can't do that I wanted it to do. Compromises appeared.

The 3-cell kit is enough unless you have a lot of functions that require independent wiring/outputs. For example, if you have a fan for your oil cooler, one on the deck lid, one in the rear bumper and for some reason you want the 3 to have independent outputs and controls, you will probably end up missing outputs.

Each cell has 10 outputs only. You have one cell up front and one cell in the back. The 3rd cell is the mastercell, which is the one for triggers, it receives the triggers, for example a press on the switch. This one has something like 42 inputs, which is more than enough. But 20 outputs, gee, that is tight, I had to make compromises in my case, cuz I like when I can control everything independently, but it was too hard with only 20 outputs.

For most people 20 is enough. On a normal build, or normal car, you don't need more. On a custom car or with many devices to control independently, it's not enough.

My recommendation is try to stick with 20 outputs, otherwise if you need 2 more (like me I ideally needed 2 or 3 more), it will cost you another cell that is around USD$550. For 2-3 outputs, no. For 6-7 that would be a choice, but for 2-3, I was able to manage to regroup them with other outputs, though I did sacrifice a few functions along the way.

This kit is upgradable a lot. The wiring, the cells, the interface, the functions, you can change and upgrade a lot and that is important for me, there is a price for that but on the long run it's worth it for me.

I will post my wiring tables (not diagrams, but instructions on what to connect where for which function) once I connect everything, test everything and all is complete.
I will also post my custom coolant diagram, custom intake diagram and custom exhaust diagram, all with piping sizes, once I finalize that too.
Most of this will not help, but for those fitting a VR6 it sure will be a great start to look at!

[C.Plavan]

Sounds like you need a new mechanic.

[Frank818]

Speaking of mechanics, that reminds me I may change mind on the engine choice.

I'll buy one of these:



Ok, the car is not for sale or too pricey, so I'll try to find one and steal its engine. Should be awesome in the 818!!

If I fail to steal one, I may get as a backup this 1-gear 1800hp engine:

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/supe...nds-incredible


What was I thinking with a mere VR6??

[Frank818]

What's wrong with this welding practice?

2015-07-19 07.22.25-1.jpg


Why it melted the 1/8 plate on the top?
I was at 100% voltage and 3 or 3.5 wire on a 140amps 120volts welder.


Here at the top, settings were 75% volts and 2.5 or 3 wire. At the bottom, 100% and 3 or 3.5 wire. I moved too fast at the top you can see the space with less wire.

2015-07-19 07.21.46.jpg


Again closer view, 100% on the right and 75% left.

2015-07-19 07.23.39.jpg


Although I welded through the metal at the top, when I check on the other side of the plate it seems the 100% setting heated up the metal better, you can see the change in color.
Does this mean the 75% setting will not make a deep weld?

2015-07-19 07.22.48.jpg

Am I ready to weld my custom engine brackets on the frame? I would do with a 180amps 240volts welder, as the brackets would have at least 1/4 thick, which is more difficult with my smaller welder.



Ok I had to redrill the center console ebrake panel. I had it too low, which caused it to hit on the FW and it was more difficult to adjust the ebrake, cuz the cables did not have enough tension. Moving it up clears the way for the FW and gives more tension to the ebrake. I know it looks stupid with the 2 holes close by, but that panel tends to want to go up and forward, because of the tension of the ebrake cables, so I am not worried about leaving such big holes on the sides. The bottom one is completely open, it makes a U (downwards), but it's not required, I was able to clamp the panel with enough force using the other 3 bolts. No need to drill new holes on the frame for rivnuts, that was my last solution.

2015-07-19 09.07.44.jpg


Cables in place to final location, using 10-32 rivnuts/bolts. Doesn't look that bad at all.
2015-07-19 08.41.19.jpg

[Frank818]

Quite a lot of updates. Not the ones I was hoping for, but for anyone fitting a VR6 in there, part of this update will be interesting for you.

If you fit a VR6 turbo with an AWIC and 3gal coolant tank, you will have a lot of headaches trying to find a location for the charge cooler and the water tank. If you want to have the exhaust top center through the bumper, it will be even more difficult! The G50 gearbox + either the charge cooler or water tank take a lot of space in height, which kills the idea of the top center muffler. Plus, you end up with more weight in the back of the rear wheels and since the VR6+G50 is heavier than the WRX, the last thing you want to do is increase weight back of the rear wheels.

Fitting the VR6 turbo in requires a LOT of compromises everywhere and a LOT of creativity and design. Every damn part I fit I need to mod something, invent something, relocate something else, etc. It is a nightmare and risky every time. I don't think I will complete this kit until late 2016...

The biggest challenge is knowing the limits! How can you know if the tank can fit here if you don't know if an alu panel or a body panel will interfere? That freaks me out every time!!

My advice: Try to fit the body on with all alu panels and splash guards before you design your way with the intake piping, exhaust, water tank, cooler, oil cooler and stuff like that.

For the water tank, I will most probably fit it up front, above the battery. Which makes it a nightmare if I need to remove the batt or simply connect/disconnect a terminal or a wire on a terminal. It also clears the way JUST barely for my single wiper motor system. The tank can slide in JUST barely, I was lucky, but that's from the FRONT where the rad is, it doesn't fit from the top of the frame. This is a compromise for the battery, but it adds up weight in the front, which is important to counterbalance the VR/G50 in the back.

For the oil pan, since you need a baffle one that works longitudinal, I already said that INA in Ontario makes one of high quality. I got it and fitted it, but in order to fit it you need to change your oil pump for an MK5 R32 (2005-2008) oil pump (also used in 9 other VWs like EOS I think and stuff). The pump is 0.5" lower profile so it does not hit the bottom of the pan. Part # 022115105E.


Now, I fix a lot of things lately:

- Fuel tank filler vent:

I drilled it in place with fuel in the tank! I used a cup from Body Building, it fits PERFECT! Finally something that fits perfect on this build. loll
I think I drilled 25mm, yeah, and I fitted a grommet, super tight, then I screwed in the barb fitting, very tight, with a sealant everywhere, inside the grommet, on the threads and around the fitting. I used grease to prevent metal from going in the tank.

2015-07-29 14.45.21.jpg2015-07-29 14.45.37.jpg2015-07-30 12.40.31.jpg


- Steering column/wheel. Many little things not aligned that I fixed. Since the seating position is very important, I was never able until now to have a good one, always compromises in the SW height, seat height, SW distance to arms, etc. Plus as we know the steering column is pointing towards the driver's door by default.
So I unshorten again my column, to do so on the tube use one of the silicone fitting that fits INSIDE the big coupler used for the corrugated coolant tubes (which I don't use) provided by FFR. Clamp it hard and it works SUPER DAMN WELL!
Then, I realized the steering column bolts where always hitting on the top column support, so that caused issues at certain column lengths. I cut a triangle piece off of the support, you can see the red line representing up to where it went before. That gave me more adjustability.
And finally, I kinked Rori's spacer so that the column would force itself on the passenger's side. It's not 100% perfect, but so damn close no one will ever see or feel anything. I found that by mistake when the spacer moved and I realized the column was getting more centered.
I also raised my seats. By 1.5" all around, using 3/16 steel flats and 1/4 spacers to take into account the 3/16. I don't have pix but the seat is now straight and higher so that I can have a normal car view ahead and not an F1 view like I did before.
All that helped with the SW and cluster. I can now see all the cluster with my 2 eyes. If I close one, I will hide the opposite side's top section a little, but barely (I have a 320mm SW, not the std 350mm). Since I don't drive with just one eye, I am ok. I could raise the SW with the Subaru mecanism and all would be perfect, but a little lower is better for optimal SW position.
So it's all set now!

2015-07-24 07.29.37.jpg2015-07-27 11.25.43-1.jpg2015-07-29 14.43.54.jpg2015-07-29 14.44.11.jpg


- VR6 stuff, I drilled a hole in SP's manifold for the ISV. If you have a VR6 turbo, you most probably have that manifold, which has only 3 useable holes (1 is for the air tank sensor), one of which is on the 1st runner for the booster (not used for booster anymore cuz manual brakes). I have too many stuff to connect and I didn't want to mix too many into 2-3 holes. The one for the ISV must be alone as it's air going in and not out. Preferably, it has to go right in the manifold after the t-body, not inside a runner. Again I used sealant around to make sure it won't leak.

2015-07-28 10.05.06.jpg2015-07-30 07.27.52.jpg



- Brake reservoir, Mike Everson's. Fitted it... the other way around! I didn't want to have to remove the reservoir or fittings if I needed to remove the windshield, so I flipped it over and that should work. No holes, I use high grade industrial velcro at the bottom, this thing won't move.

2015-07-29 14.43.16.jpg

[Hindsight]

Good to hear of the progress Frank. Pics aren't showing up for me though. I get an error when clicking the link.

[Frank818]

True they got destroyed. Should be ok now.

[Hindsight]

It's crazy how much time you have to spend when you make just a small change. It's like a jig-saw puzzle and you have to ensure everything fits just right. Add forced induction and the complexity goes up substantially. Change the engine like you are and it goes up 10x more at least. You'll have something really unique though. I'll be interested to see how the VW driveshafts and CVs compare to the Subies, in terms of strength/reliability.

[Frank818]

It's crazy how much time you have to spend when you make just a small change.

It is totally absurd, yes. I know the result will be great, but god you got to put a lot of efforts and time to get there. More than I thought, cuz yes I have everything different than FFR and I couldn't imagine all the details that would cause issues through time, it's impossible unless you've done it before, which of course I didn't. And since it was impossible to get every square inch of measurement possible to check before hand, you step in the dark for a huge part of the build.

There is one, just one big stress left (a few small ones but those are easier to manage): will the engine fit in height without body mods and will the gearbox/engine fit in length without the shift linkage sticking out of the bottom bumper hole.

For the rest, it's just one step at a time building, designing. But the above 2 are more than "designs and builds" for me in order to fix!


I admit I have simplified a lot of stuff too, even though using a VR6, with turbo, with Porsche gearbox, custom drive shafts I have to measure right, AWIC water tank, AWIC pump, VW cluster, VW Recaro seats, 3-type wiring (VW, Subie and Custom), I have found many ways to simply the build. Delete this, delete that, kill all around here, etc.

I'll be interested to see how the VW driveshafts and CVs compare to the Subies, in terms of strength/reliability.

I will not be able to make comparisons. I am going custom shafts and CVs with bored out rear hubs. I need something that can support at least 500whp, in case I upgrade one day (yeah right), but I need a very very minimum of 425whp forever, must never break with that power. Well the Subie rear hubs will. I have the 24-spline version and those are too small, people with less power break them (and I think Metal broke his along with the CV), when on a RWD setup. AWD that's fine. But the Subie hubs weren't designed for RWD.

I will have Porsche G50 inner CVs with special high strength half shafts (the size of the Subie's) fitted on custom DriveShaftShop outer CVs for Subies using bored out Subie hubs with bigger splines, job all done by DSS, I ship them my hubs (I have 8 hubs, for 2 donors, so that's not a prob). I expect USD$2200-2500 for the set. Expensive uh? The bad is all mine when I decided to go VR6 turbo.

If I could have used the VW half shaft's size, that would not have required stronger shafts, cuz the VW's are big, really big compared to the Subie's. OEMs are good for about 450whp on the VR6. CVs as well, if not a little more for the latter, but you are kissing the limit then.

[Frank818]

Arf, ok, some more updates.

- AWIC Water Tank

Went through a long design! Wanted to use FFR's rods that I don't use to support the tank. I kinda went with that idea but couldn't use FFR's rods as they are 3/8-24 and it was too complicated at the local shop to get 3/8-24 nuts! I had to buy 3/8-16 rods and get the freakin nuts. Drove me nuts. hahahaha

2015-07-31 08.37.46.jpg

To solve the battery tender issue, I simply connected 2 wires on the terminals and I can clamp the tender to them. Easy!
2015-07-31 09.39.55.jpg


This, what is this. Oh yeah, I routed my hot AWIC return line, from the cooler to the top hole on the tank. Fits well on that side.

2015-08-02 11.31.18.jpg




My new oil cooler setup showed up. I had the stickiest AN fitting on my old cooler, so stuck that the only way to remove that fitting was stripping it. The fitting, with o-ring, costs probably 20USD. Coolers with fittings are found for 40-50, so I decided to change my cooler and get a bigger one. At the same time I needed new lines and I wanted a fan for better control, so I ended up buying a full kit (I don't need the non-thermostat sandwich plate, though).

2015-08-03 12.36.57.jpg


This is a very very important measurement. It is the distance between the FW 1.5" crossbars and the far end of the frame. To that, add 3/4" of clearance the bumper allows and you are at the very end of the car. You should also deduct 5mm (1/4") to that final measurement, cuz you need a minimum clearance between the engine and FW.

2015-08-04 07.12.06.jpg

Yup, my engine/gearbox is too long. But that is caused by the poor design of the shift linkage. I provided wrong measurement to my mech last winter so he went with easiest design. Now I know it's too long. Easy, I can fix by flipping around and move the cable bracket, I have many ideas to fix this issue, that won't be a problem.
2015-08-04 07.48.16.jpg2015-08-04 07.49.31.jpg2015-08-04 07.54.03.jpg


Bought this, tap and die sets. I can't believe I didn't before. Cheap stuff though, it works on the frame, but on 1/8 flats it is very hard and only one worked.
2015-08-04 10.48.56-1.jpg

[Frank818]

Now back on the AWIC Tank installation. That was a tough one. I wanted to go the easy way, which I did. But then the 3/8 rods I bought were too flexible so I had to mount brackets to support them. Then the tank was not solid enough, it was wobbling on the rods, I added padding on the rear close to the master cylinder and a bracket with padding up front, pushing on the tank. That's better. Then the tank was hitting the wiper motor. I checked clearances before drilling my holes, but it's hard to mark the holes at the exact place and drill them at the exact place, so it moved a little and there you go on the wiper. I enlarged the holes on each sides of the tank to give me some play.

It works, but I've never seen such tight clearances!!! I added a thin padding under the wiper motor arm, it rubs on the tank a little but doesn't scratch nor prevents from working. That wiper motor will work ONCE, at car inspection on a stand still, so no worries. But god, the tank fits so tight everywhere! And yes, if I need to remove the battery, I have to drain the tank. Bad place to drain coolant, there are a lot of tubes, wires, I have to remove all side panels, fender, splash guard, wheel, inner alu panels, put something under the drain hole (no place to put something but hey, that was expected), etc. Will be a pain, but my batteries tend to last very long, cuz I tender them all the time. So the compromise was ok. Again, like I said earlier, there are a lot of compromises on this VR6 build.

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I admit this is a crappy solution, but I believe even at 35lbs with water + G forces it will work. There are no side-to-side movements and it's almost nil back and forth. I'll keep an eye on this solution, for the moment I needed to do something quickly, cuz I lag a lot in my build due to my mech not being available for the engine. I also start to become great at taking close up pix with my phone, the quality is getting better.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank
Don't hold down the optima batteries by the post. You will break the pressure seal.
I had a couple those in the back of my van.
VAN_BATT.jpg
Bob

[Frank818]

Bob, which pic are you referring to?
The battery sits on the FFR plate and is held by the J bolts FFR provides (the bolts are off on all the pix, I was test fitting the tank). The posts are only connected with to their terminals and they don't hold the battery.

[Frank818]

Ok, FINALLY! This morning the car arrived at the shop to get my engine in. My friend will work on it this coming week (my vacations have ended this w-e, I gotta work on Monday), along with finishing the brake lines and filling it up with brake fluid. I have to finish the installation of Mike's brake reservoir relocation, drill holes for the half moon alu panel that goes inside the windshield and under the dash and that should be it. Once all this is done, I tow it back home to finish everything that's left.

I am sure I'll have pictures of the installation, or installation issues, next Saturday. That's when we'll see how the VR6 can or cannot fit in there. A bit late to think "cannot", but we never know...

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, which pic are you referring to?
The battery sits on the FFR plate and is held by the J bolts FFR provides (the bolts are off on all the pix, I was test fitting the tank). The posts are only connected with to their terminals and they don't hold the battery.

I thought this was the battery hold down bar.
2015-08-06%2007_37_17.jpg

What is your tank in front for?

[Frank818]

Nope, it's the bar to stabilize the AWIC water tank. Basically the tank sits on the 2 lock nuts on the rods but I made a bar across to stiffen the solution and better sit the tank, it weighs 35lbs with water in so I need something relatively solid.

It's a 3-gal water tank used for the AWIC cooler. Pretty much the only damn place I can fit it, assuming I don't want to take up the foot rest area of the passenger and assuming I have that VR6 with Porsche tranny in the back.

So like you I'll have a tank up front. Just not fuel, though.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nope, it's the bar to stabilize the AWIC water tank. Basically the tank sits on the 2 lock nuts on the rods but I made a bar across to stiffen the solution and better sit the tank, it weighs 35lbs with water in so I need something relatively solid.

It's a 3-gal water tank used for the AWIC cooler. Pretty much the only damn place I can fit it, assuming I don't want to take up the foot rest area of the passenger and assuming I have that VR6 with Porsche tranny in the back.

So like you I'll have a tank up front. Just not fuel, though.

I don't understand how a awic water tank works. Once the water gets hot, It can't cool the intake air any more.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

I don't understand how a awic water tank works. Once the water gets hot, It can't cool the intake air any more.
Bob

You can put ice in the tank and sub cool the water below ambient temperature. It only only increases performance short term like for drag racing or autocross. It also gives the system more heat capacity, which damps out long duration spikes in air temp.

[Frank818]

I don't understand how a awic water tank works. Once the water gets hot, It can't cool the intake air any more.
Bob

You can put ice in the tank and sub cool the water below ambient temperature. It only only increases performance short term like for drag racing or autocross. It also gives the system more heat capacity, which damps out long duration spikes in air temp.

True.
In my case the tank simply acts as a damper to accumulate more water in the system. The more you got, the more heat you can transfer to the system and the longer it takes for the water to heat up, better on long runs and for some heat spikes.
The tank is inline the system, so water always goes in and out the tank, it's not like an overflow tank.

The pump sucks hot water from the tank, sends it to the AWIC HE (up front the engine rad for me), gets cooled, goes to the AWIC cooler core in the back, cools the air intake, goes back into the tank up front, sucked by pump again and so on.

For some reason I failed to find a good diagram of how it works on internet.

[choobs]

Hello Frank-

I've been following your build for about a month now, looks like you are making good progress on this unbeaten path! I have been looking for something a little more special as a fun car and the 818c looks the part and is of big interest to me. However, like you, I want to stuff a motor in there that sounds as good as it looks: a VR6! Except I would like to run a 3.6 instead of the 2.8 since it was in some VW/Porsche products as a longitudinal engine and ~300bhp NA in a light car seems like a lot of fun!

The down side I have gathered from reading your thread is cost, especially those CV axle shafts! Space seems like a huge problem mostly because you are going turbo with an AWIC which with an NA motor I hope I can avoid some headaches. I have considered this same swap into my B5 A4 but for the cost, I'd have a decent car with a great engine that was still way too heavy to be a lot of fun.

Is there any general insight you can give me form your perspective on this build? The most difficult decisions, the headaches, considerations that one may not understand looking in from the outside?

I'm a little anxious about taking such a huge endeavor but that MIG welder was expensive and I'd like to put my garage engineering experience to use for something interesting. Plus it gives me an excuse to accumulate more tools!

Thanks!

[Frank818]

Hey choobs!

Tnx for the encouragements. Cost is not an option if you deviate from FFR's recommendations. Unless you get very lucky (like the Subaru 3.0 H6) and things fits almost in the same place, cost is a required part of the build. The problem is since you don't know what can come up, you don't know how much money you'll need! That's the problem when you're the first on something.

But I admit being NA would be a lot easier in many aspects. Keys here are measurements and gearbox choice. If you can have precise measurements of the engine and you can find a gearbox that fits in the 818 when used on the big 3.6, you should be ok. Of course if your measurements say that it may not fit, then you have to decide what to do, but if you they say it would fit and you are confident, I would not expect much mods elsewhere. Depends what you do for the cluster too and wiring. If they are not Subaru, go deeper on the fitting, make sure things will be compatible and again measurements.

I would really love to see how long and wide that 3.6 is. I tell ya, the engine length (in a longitudinal orientation of course) is a big big big big variable in this build. Anything over 19-21" (can't recall the exact number, I'd have to measure again my engine) and you are in the red zone.

Height could be an issue. The engine needs to fits when the gearbox is flat to the ground, so that too you have to measure and guesstimate.

The shafts, yeah, tell me about that. I think you don't need the bored hubs, might be ok with 300hp, then it's probably around 1500-1750 bucks. I can save 500 if I buy only 2 set of outer CVs, which is what I may do, so instead of around 2500 I might end up at 2k for a high power complete set. You have to think if 300hp can destroy the CVs/splines like Metalmaker did.

Get those measurements and let's see if the engine alone can fit.

[Frank818]

15-08-15

A date to write down somewhere for me. After being delayed 1 year due to issues at my mech's shop, we finally physically test fitted the engine/tranny combo this morning.

It does fit. I repeat: IT DOES FIT. Things are tight in some areas, but workable.

I will probably need to cut 2 more bars and weld bars over the remaining parts, to gain 3/4" in height for the shafts, but that's EASY!
On the shift linkage, again I will simply cut the top portion of the lever, flip 180-deg around and back the hole where the cable attaches through. Again, EASY. Then, it clears the bumper pretty much like the WRX guys.

Engine overshoots by about 2" the top of the FW, but there should be about 4" of play on a WRX before it hits the body panel, so probably 2" in my case. I think I won't need body work anywhere. Not sure yet.

Very tight to fit my cooler on the driver's side, should work, if it doesn't, I will fit it further back, right to the rear of the left wheel. Not that hard to fit.

Muffler will probably fit over the gearbox, need heatshield to prevent muffler from melting the shift cables (if they can melt).
Exhaust will be short. Very short. 3". I will probably not be able to fit my resonator. Or if I do, then I have to do part of a "Tamra exhaust". Go check her thread for that. Not that hard on the exhaust solution.

Yes, the tensioner bolts are removable, though it's a tight fit. 2 bolts slide inside the FW (guess why I decided to have a FW heatshield inside the cockpit instead of outside) and 1 right on the 1.5" bar, but there is just enough space to slide the tensioner with the bolt and remove it without backing out the engine. Of course I rarely need to remove the tensioner, but I know one day it will happen.

My FPR doesn't fit by 1/8 or so. I need a 90-deg fitting to the fuel rail and I'm in business. EASY again.

The intake piping, either over the cam cover or bottom front of the engine, between engine and FW and then up to the cooler and manifold. Not that hard.

The rear tower brace, as expected and measured a year ago, will need to be cut and welded flip upside-down, in order to go over the coil pack. Not that hard, long, but not hard.

So that's it. Everything I need to fit around should not be a problem, though some will take me time to design and fab, but NO STRESS on any other stuff I need to fit in there.

Phew... That was a full year lived with stress, but now the only stress is that I would really love to finish that build for next summer and drive the damn car! I need to hear that focking engine sound! It will be a focking damn blast just to hear, I'm sure about that. I feel better now that I swore a little.


The engine will probably be pushed 1/8" more closer to the FW and left or side measurements might vary by about 1/2" in some areas, cuz the engine was not on any supports, just hanging in the air.
I have a lot more pictures with measurements, but we are limited to 10 pix per post.

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[Speedy G]

Who's the man! Dude, congratulations!!!

It sounds like you' re going to need some hard motor/tranny mounts.

[svanlare]

AWESOME news!

Great that you have survived the ups and downs of the pre-project optimism of it "should" fit, through the cold reality phase of it "might" be made to fit (or worse yet, I have to do "what ?*?!?" to make it fit), and finally landing at the thrilling conclusion of it "does" fit!

Flying home tonight (maybe I can work on mine tomorrow), but opening a beer on the plane for you.

[Tamra]

Whoo hoo!!!! Congrats!!!

And I would call it the "Andrew Exhaust" since the most I did was help stabilize a part for tacking I leave the welding to him.