Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Frank818]

and the mud flaps. Gonna steal that idea

Actually I stole it myself from someone, I think it was Harley...
Pretty quick to design by re-using an unused alu sheet from FFR. I got very lucky I used one that already had the edge slightly bent on the width to give it that curve at the bottom.

[redbudrr]

Great looking car!!! Nice job!!

[q4stix]

It's looking great! Glad to see it finally back together and just in time for spring!

[AZPete]

Looks beautiful! I like all the detail with blue in the steering wheel, the 2-piece dash, e-brake handle and more. Very nicely done, again. Is your weather getting warm enough to take it out?

[Frank818]

We are stuck at 12C-16C for weeks now, usually it's around 18-20C at this time, but sun is hot so on sunny days it'd be just perfect. My hope is this coming w-e. Crossing fingers nothing major will force me from dismantling parts again and wasting weeks working on the issues.

[aquillen]

Looks great - thanks for all the pics and details.

[Harley818]

Nice work Frank. Your patience is amazing. Good luck and hope its a good season for you.

[Pearldrummer7]

Damn, those mudflaps are nice. You have such an awesome looking car, Frank!

[Frank818]

Went for a spin this morning, finally!


Did only 2 miles. You'll see why later.


Good news are multiple.


- Suspension is in working condition. Stiff, but driveable, not my concern anymore at the moment. I think 375 in the back instead of 400 and 325 up front would be better, but having 400 in the back prevents the tires from rubbing the rear splash guards on compression, even though I have 1 finger clearance between tire and fender edge.
- No noticeable bumpsteer! Did not try on highway but around the block and holes, cracks and bumps it was fine. Time will tell.
- Acceleration is pretty quick for an engine not yet tuned. Engine sound under slow accel is not one of the best around but if you press on it a bit more it's a lot better! Impressed by its quickness so far.
- No startup issues, no stalls.
- Electric fan I put above the turbo DOES extract hot air from the engine bay through Craig's humps louvers when I shut down the engine.
- Alignment seems fine, the best I can do manually before I get it laser aligned, feels like a normal car alignment.
- Nothing fell on the ground or disconnected!
- No dust and gravel around the doors.
- No clutch noise.
- No wheel bearing noise.
- Exhaust smell is very minimal! Couldn't smell any while driving around the block.
- My inner CV boots don't seem to rub on the inner CV metal cup, which means even though the clearance is 1-2mm, it's sufficient in most driving conditions, I believe. Time will tell.



So following all this it means the car IS driveable. Why did I stop after 2 miles?



What I feared the most happened:

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The ****ing rad cap again! 4th time it pisses on me, this little tabarnak! The cap was loose!!! It was hardly in place before and now it wobbles in all directions. Somehow, the pressure loosened the cap and it poured all around it while driving.


I lost so much coolant my in-dash low level warning light flashed. At least it's working.


It splashed everywhere up front. I even have coolant inside the front wheels and along side the side pod, inside the pods. I am not removing the side pods, too bad.
I have to remove most alu panels up front, the splitter again as it's filled up with coolant and... and so many other things.


Good news is the mud flaps did their job, they have coolant on them and prevented from splashing under the side pods, outside.



Then I have to find a way to fix that damn cap, but I am out of ideas.
Replace the rad cap hole hose by a solid pipe without cap hole? Maybe, but I am unsure how to fill up coolant in the rad, then. My thermostat is closed, the VW expansion tank is connected to the closed circuit, not the open circuit.





I understand now why I have so many problems on this build. I am a good show car builder, but a very bad road car builder...

[Frank818]

Good ol' Bob was right yet again when he said, and I quote "It's not sealed properly you MF". lolll
I knew something was wrong with the cap but didn't think it was not sealed AT ALL!

2019-05-19 18.07.21_1.jpg

I found the double twist and lock thing. The problem was related to the metal notches on either side of the cap, noted by the red top arrow. Those notches were too tight so when I was twisting and locking they were following the green line but couldn't go further than the bottom red arrow. Cuz it couldn't push down enough to let the plastic notch pass between the metal notch and top of cap.

So I took a big flat head screwdriver and pryed (pried? Pry in past tense) just a little those metal notches. Now when I push down the second time it goes under the plastic notch and twists further in! The plastic notch will prevent the cap from unscrewing. Yesterday it unscrewed by pressure cuz there wasn't any plastic notch to keep it in place.

100% my mistake. Which confirms how bad a road car builder I am.


Make sure your rad cap is Bob sealed!!!
You ain't want a coolant mess up front the 818...

[AZPete]

Whew, I'm glad it was just a simple fix. you deserve it. Now, out for a longer drive?

[Frank818]

Whew, I'm glad it was just a simple fix. you deserve it. Now, out for a longer drive?

Won't seal as far as I thought compared to the plastic notch, I cannot go over that notch for basic reasons I cannot explain well without pictures, but I made it tighter and I thought of 2 ways to secure it in place as much as possible.
So it's ready for a longer drive assuming it won't pop again. Unfortunately, job and weather are not much aligned at the moment (I don't live in the Mojave desert like you), so my target is Sunday and if I take Monday off to celebrate the day off with you guys, Monday looks promising too.

Curiously when I filled it up with coolant it filled up the rad as well! Although my thermostat is closed. So either I did something wrong many years ago and plugged hoses in the wrong thermostat housing holes, or VW designed the thermostat housing to be that way. No worries worst case it makes the engine warm up slower but so far it didn't seem out of the ordinary.

[Frank818]

Some people here are like me and also love powerful electric drivetrains (cars or bikes, right Bob? ). I've always been a huge fan of Rimac's out of the box thinking to be one of if not the leader in terms of powerful electric motors and batteries. Here's one for you:

[Bob_n_Cincy]

cars or bikes, right Bob?

Last week I was working on putting a modern electric powertrain in a 70+ year old car. I will post a video when it's done with owners permission. Don't forget I've also done electric boats and trucks.
riverwalk.jpg balqon_electrictruck.jpg

Bob

[Frank818]

This time the rad cap is staying in place.
However one of my rear coolant hose, right above the exhaust, blew up. 5 sec before I shut down the engine in my garage, that is the only relief! I heard a POP and then I saw thick white smoke coming out of my rear hump louver cuz the fan is pushing out air through the louver and all of the coolant was pouring on the hot exhaust.

Stupid hose popped. It was fine for over 120km and then pop! The pink thing around the hose is a pink rag to hold it angled upwards.

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If anyone wants to buy the car at a decent price I'm willing to sell. 50 to 200h to make it reliable and it would be a blast to drive, capable of 600bhp if tuned properly.
I might part it out too, cuz the newly rebuilt engine and G50 box are worth a huge chunk.

In the meantime I'll repair it and we'll see what comes up first: me driving again the car but without issues for the 1st time, or selling it.

[Frank818]

Looks cool Bob! I should have gone electric on the 818... see next post.

[AZPete]

Frank, step away from it for a few days. It's just a hose - easy to replace. Vodka helps.

[Frank818]

It's just a hose - easy to replace.

Normally yes. This one is particular.

I have a bad setup (remember what I said about being a bad road car builder), it's a T-fitting with a 3/4 hose on top, 3/4 on the bottom right and 20 or 21mm on the bottom left.
3/4 = 19mm.
The bottom left is 1-2mm larger and I couldn't find a t-fitting that is 3/4-3/4-20/21mm. So I put some high temp tape to enlarge the barb fitting, 3-4 years ago. But pressure made it slip away, probably cuz it wasn't tight enough and some coolant slipped through between the hose and barb, lubricating the space more. Don't know.

All I know is the t-fitting is not the correct size and I pushed the installation anyway.

Now trying to use some aeroquip barb fitting push-on, correct sizes, and one size t-fitting screw-on (threads). But then again I have a hard time finding the right fittings.


My problem is only a problem of fitting sizes! That's so stupid.

Any advice on the right solution here would be awesome. I can take better pictures of the area if required.

[DSR-3]

Sorry to hear about the challenges, and not to kick you while down, but that was not a great idea... I suggest that you sketch the perfect fitting/solution and find a way to have it made. I have at least 2 custom fittings in my system. I typically buy the parts/materials and do all the fab work and have a skilled welder do it right. There are also reducing hoses both straight and elbow.
Good luck, don't give up!

[Frank818]

that was not a great idea...

Precisely my point.
Which means, for anyone reading this, if you are somewhat unsure of your solution, or you needed to cheat to make it work, undo everything and redo it differently, cuz it's not normal to not have confidence on the end result. If you are asking yourself "is this going to last?", redo the solution. 8 times out of 10 I've asked myself that question things blew up on me.

I suggest that you sketch the perfect fitting/solution and find a way to have it made.

I ordered a straight reducer 20mm to 18mm. Seems on barb fittings with a hose ID of x the correct size fitting is x-1. So 21mm-1=20. And 19mm-1=18. I test fitted the fittings I have with 20mm and 18mm (they are not reducers) and it worked perfectly.

I am limited on the length cuz my hose makes an elbow pretty quickly, but it's 75mm long and I take an absolute max of 82mm. Should be ok! I'm adding 2 extra clamps to the solution, 2 potential point of failures, but with the perfect fittings and clamps that should not happen anyway.

Need to wait 3 weeks for shipping, ordered from UK. Usually faster than that, maybe I'll get lucky.


I guess during those 3 weeks I'll take some vodka and get to bed later so I don't need to wake up at 4h30 7 days a week to work on the car. Correct, Pete?

[svanlare]

I feel your pain here.

I realized working on this project that I dislike plumbing on a car just as much as I dislike it under the sink. In the month before I drove round trip to LA, I think I had the coolant system apart 6 times or more. Nothing like inspiring confidence before my first big drive. I feel like every single joint leaked or I couldn't get the system bleed right and it kept overheating.

These things saved me. "power grip clamps" that I shrink wrapped at first on the hard to get to spots, later I got them all. That and Vodka. Hang in there.
Power Grip.png

[Frank818]

Koenigsegg... these guys have RE-invented the wheel for many car parts already... And they did it again with this awesome gearbox, who would have thought of such an out of the box design but them...

[Frank818]

Thanks Steve, that does help to know I'm not the only one. If I knew about those heatshrink clamps before I'd use them.

My fitting is due around June 20, 1 month for shipping from UK, that means someone is delivering on a kayak for sure but anyway... The good news is the engine seems to work so well and burn fuel SO MUCH better than the setup I had before. That's what I have to focus on.

However, maybe I should have gone electric still!! 5 years ago it wasn't as evolved as it is now, so starting my project now I'd freakin seriously consider electric. Lots of electricity, at least 400wtq.

[Frank818]

I'm exhausted of this project, but still moving fwd.

Since my UK ebay guy hasn't delivered in 3 weeks (FedEx Swim service I guess), I turned around. I don't know why but I didn't think about this solution 3 weeks ago and then when txting with the other 818 in QC I did it.

Got myself a custom fitting machined. Turns out he's got a couple of machines, computer ones and manual ones. Alu 6061 SUPER light fitting, I've never had such a light fitting, I feel great now that I removed a couple of ounces from the car... and added a few more by using more clamps. loll

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Check out the thin wall on the smaller end. Still very strong and since coolant pressure will push out while clamps are crushing in, it shouldn't blow up.
As you can notice the inside diameter (ID) is the same all across, not reducing like you usually get.

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Cost? 10 to 15 times more expensive than ebay but exactly my specs and I could have had it the next day my old fitting popped out. Took me 1h to drive to his home, 1h to machine and 1h to drive back. I got to see his race 818, he came back from work with it. Totally different goal than mine.

So now the car is back up in ONE piece, however I finished it too late today to get it out for tuning. It's not a drive, it's a tune, I need to watch every single thing that happens on the car, at the same time. Hard for the brain since it's not an ECU.

I'll try to take a sunny day off this week or next w-e is another 3-day w-e here so there should be at least one day without rain. This 3-day w-e was all without rain, but car wasn't ready.



What's your gamble for the next issue?

[aquillen]

Let's pretend everything will go great from here on. I don't believe in optimism much but worth a try

[Frank818]

It's dead.

This time the engine broke. I was able to run the engine for about 1h, all went fine! I drove 4km, my longest distance so far.

Then I came back in driveway, lifted the rear engine cover for the 7th or 8th time during the run to check everything's ok. While I was checking the engine was idling of course and then all of a sudden CLING CLING CLING CLING! No warning.

I saw the AFRs in the high 9s-low 10s and I shut it down after maybe 5sec of clinging.

I was able alone to get the car down the driveway and up the garage, was very hard by turning the wheels with my hands on the rims' spokes. I tried to start it up again, a quarter of a turn, and it felt like a very low voltage battery with pistons seizing up.

I'll remove the plugs if I can see anything there, but everything external to the engine seems ok at the moment. I didn't check around the clutch yet.

Have no idea what that could be!!!

But if I need to get the engine out and dismantled again, it's the end for a 3rd year in a row. Didn't seem something easy to fix or without damaging the internals, though.

[Frank818]

Wow my fuel pressure was at 92psi! That's 6.3bar... usually it's at 60-66psi. Good thing those injectors support up to 10bar. I don't know how long it was at 92psi and whether that is or not a problem. I saw that either before the engine issue or at the engine issue when I press the stop button, can't recall. Something to remember next time, if there is a next time.



My ECU log showed that when the issue happened, my MAP values started to rise from 40kpa (normal idle) up to 90-95 (WOT on an NA engine). Something increased pressure in the intake manifold, which yields me to a valve problem. This explains the 9-10AFR I had, 90-95kpa MAP injects a lot more fuel.



If the problem was in the short block, the engine would have stopped turning and mostly my oil pressure would have dropped, which it didn't. The engine turned hardly cuz there was way too much fuel due to high MAP.





Anyway here's my troubleshooting plan:


- Remove cam cover to press every valve lifter with a screwdriver to see if they have the same tension. Maybe a spring broke or some other part.
- Try to turn the engine by hand and if it works see if it blocks somewhere, if it doesn't, find TDC and ensure everything is still aligned normally.
- If all is right move to short block, remove oil filter, pour oil into a paper screen and see if any metal parts are accumulating on the paper.
- If all is good there too, move to gearbox, around the flywheel and clutch. Not there yet.
- If all is goof on gearbox, go back to head and remove many parts to look into the manifold and they remove the head altogether.


Looks like a lot of fun, damn it.

[Frank818]

Got it!!

Found the problem. Something I've never heard of before!

2019-06-28 18.48.27.jpg

A cam gear slipping sideways.
It did ground a bit of soft alu from the right side cover, the chain was grounding on it, I found a bit of metal, but just 3 or 4 and looking with a light I couldn't find more.
Still I need to remove everything on that side, which means draining the coolant again. I think this will be my 10th time.

Now what collateral damages did this do? If the gear also slipped around the shaft, then my valve timing is wrong I could have a bent valve too.


There goes my summer for sure. I have so much frustration inside it is impossible to nail down a value on any human scale.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank, sorry to hear about your troubles.
Is it a bolt that holds the sprocket on the cam shaft?
If the keyway is still aligned, I would just tighten it.
If not aligned, then align it, tighten, and then a quick compression test to figure out if you have internal damage.

Good luck, you deserve some.
Bob

[Frank818]

Yes that's my plan, Bob!
Tnx for reminding me it's called a sprocket, I had completely forgot.

I plan on doing exactly what you suggest, with an added security, which is hand turning the engine before compression test it. Also maybe I'll try a leak-down instead of compression, just so that I won't need to crank it in case something goes wrong. But either will be done.

Not concerned about potential small metal debris or dust that would have fallen down the chain path at the bottom of the lower chain side cover? There are 2 covers, an upper one and lower one. The latter will be a lot more work to remove.

[AZPete]

Bob said it perfectly with, "good luck, you deserve some." I'm keeping my fingers crossed, also.

[aquillen]

I like your attitude - fuss, crab, cuss maybe, stew and yet - dig in and find it - not just walk away. I'm the same way.

[Frank818]

Arf, getting closer to valve issues though...

The sprocket did jump its keyway and the key on the sprocket has been slightly damaged, although it still locks in place when I put it on the cam, I think I'll keep that sprocket.

2019-06-29 18.53.02.jpg


As for the valves, my mech told me if I push on the lifters with a screwdriver and none move, it means the valves have tension on them and have not bent. He said bent valves lose tension and are easy to push down. Not sure if that's true, but no lifters is moving by a micro-millimiter!

However, my cams are NOT aligned. See the notch on the ends of both cams? They must be in the same direction and here they are 90-deg apart.

2019-06-29 18.48.58_1.jpg

However again, when I look at the valves of Cyl1 and its paired cylinder, Cyl6, I can barely see a difference in the angle of the lobes, so maybe they are not aligned but not enough to have caused the valves from hitting the pistons. Remember I have 7.6CR so maybe that gives more clearance under the head, I have no idea.

My next step is finding how to realign this thing... What happens if I turn the de-aligned cam, will the valves hit the pistons... then what happens if I turn the engine, which in turn turns the correctly aligned cam, will pistons hit valves on the de-aligned cam... I'll try TheHumbleMechanic or some other youtube.

I have one cam aligned already, do I really need to be at TDC to align the 2nd cam?
Judging by the lifters, both valves are closed on Cyl1.


Anyway my problem is not how to find TDC, it's what happens if I turn either the de-aligned cam or the engine/aligned cam.

[Frank818]

I have a question for the cam installer guys.

I was able to reinstall the sprocket, quite a complicated task cuz the intermediate shaft was already in place which caused the chain to be to tight.

In the process of reinstalling for a reason I don't understand the correctly aligned sprocket ended up with the chain being fitted 2 teeth tighter. The sprocket did NOT move. As you can see the chain moved 2 teeth to the left while I was playing to have some slack for the other sprocket:

2019-06-30 11.57.29.jpg

The red marks are photoshoped but behind are marks I made with a cutting knife on the metal so I could follow what's going on.


What's the impact of this movement on the chain?
Will the right yellow skate (tensioner guide) be too tight, as it removed slack from the right side of the chain, and I won't be able to torque the tensioner?
Will it cause the engine being out of timing on that right sprocket?


They say the slack should be all on the tensioner's side. At the moment my slack is all on the other side and I am unable to jump the chain back where it was and have the slack on the tensioner's side.

The intermediate shaft did not move as the engine did not turn.

[aquillen]

Frank, I'm in no way savvy on your engine, nor positioned to argue with your mechanic 'cause of that. I had a 427 in a '69 vette that jumped time once, several degrees. Nothing got bent, so you never know...

BUT some thoughts considering your pictures vs. valve/piston clearance extrapolated into typical engines. My understanding is a lot of engines do have very close tolerance or rather "little room for error" if they rotate when out of time - they will very likely collide some valve-piston. Given your aggravations to date, taking a chance here doesn't seem what you want to do as ol' man Murph has not been kind to you so far.

Looking at - your shot where you circled the two ends of the the camshafts looks to me like a pretty good difference in degrees of rotation, given they are to be setup in line during timing the assembly. Then there is your picture showing the sprocket nearly off of the camshaft and it shows a galled metal area on the shaft, I'd think that happened when the sprocket turned in relation to the shaft. That doesn't show enough other than to guess but looks also like quite a few degrees of rotation between the two "happened". (i.e. they correlate regarding slipped timing).

A scenario would have been: you heard the clicking while the sprocket was loose but still keyed - not off the end yet. Once off the end - possibly right when you shut it down, it tipped off. Now trying to rotate the engine you really are in "contact" territory - so it wouldn't want to rotate with just starter effort as a collision jammed things. Whether a valve gets bent in this scenario likely depends on starter torque... just a guess/possible on my part.

To understand your configuration I dug around on the 'net. Have you seen this particular video on timing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE

Got me oriented on your motor at least.

To sum it up: Pushing on the lifters to see if they move may be valid but my gut feeling is unsettled with that. Wondering if you can get a scope down the spark holes and check piston tops? Even that is iffy if you come up with no evidence. When you get it back together how about manually rolling each cylinder to TDC on compression (then lock the crank so it doesn't roll next) and rig up a "reverse compression test/leakdown" - send 100psi down the spark hole, seal the air supply off and see if each cyl holds pressure reasonably - compare all cylinders. A bent valve should not hold beans. Then finally compression test rolling - but I would not trust rolling that motor at starter speed again until I was feeling really confident about it's condition now.

And of course you know this - why did that sprocket bolt come off - phone ring while you were torqueing? I'd have to check them all. Do you paint your completed torque parts (you'll see marks on my chassis and other parts where that needs to be assured - I can never remember 5 minutes after I do something like that so I mark 'em).

Good luck as always.

[aquillen]

Regarding your fuel pressure and manifold pressure. Rotating with the timing off likely pressurized the manifold, which you alluded to back in your comment (ie. the valves) about that odd pressure. The fuel pressure is no doubt regulated via reference to the manifold pressure, which I think is just about universal with FI, so it went up only because of that.

[Frank818]

Yes I did view that video about 100 times. The problem is he is not installing while in the same situation I am.

He installs from scratch, so the intermediate shaft sprocket is fitted last.
Mine is already fitted and on the correct chain tooth. Then when I try to put the left sprocket back on, there is so much tension I cannot reach the cam at a straight angle to slide the sprocket in.

I was not able to find anything that could guide me from that situation onwards.

If I need to remove the intermediate sprocket, I have to remove the gearbox.

There must be a way to fit that left sprocket back on with chain slack on the right side. In the meantime I realigned the faulty cam by turning it forward to catch up its 90-deg lag, so both cams' end grooves are almost the same angle. Can't get any better without being at TDC which I can't right now. Even if I am, I am unable to reinstall the left sprocket, so that's not any better.

[Frank818]

Art, I did not torque those cam bolts, my mech did the installation. He told me the bolt could loosen up if the engine gets too many hard jerk ups. Which it had. 3 or 4 times, until last drive I had a problem, around 2800rpm the engine was cutting off fuel and injecting and cutting, rapidly and very very harsh, the entire car was shaking. I had missed cam sensor triggers so the ECU cut fuel. I found the problem, it was ECU configuration related, but the car got badly shook up 3 or 4 times before. That could loosen up the bolt.

[Frank818]

Think I found the way, althought very dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqzLKqNwKww

See around 3mins-3m20sec.

I have to install the left sprocket first. Then I slide the right sprocket from below the chain. That will do.
BUT, when I remove the right sprocket I have to be very careful not to push the chain sideways on the lower intermidiate shaft sprocket! It may jam between the sprocket and side cover.
I think I'll wait Tuesday (Canada off tomorrow) and call my mech, ask him how he would do it to prevent that from happening. It's in this situation if I had someone to help me, that person could have lifted the chain to simulate the presence of the sprocket in order to keep tension on the intermediate sprocket, while I install the sprockets back.

[aquillen]

You're way ahead of my thinking - glad of that. I wonder if your mechanic will suggest lifting/moving the cam itself (yikes?). No surprise you've worked youtube over for ideas. Love to come help but a long trip.