One more decision to go: ABS or not?

[Al_C]

OK, we're getting closer. I've spoken to many of you personally over the past weeks and months and have sought your input on a variety of topics. I thank each of you. So here's where we're at:

complete MKIV kit
Coyote
TKO600
IRS
power steering
big and tall seats

There are a bunch of other items, but they don't fall into the "major" category in my mind.

However, there is one crucial decision left: ABS or no ABS? If I don't go with ABS, I will simply order the brakes off the FFR form.

Other than having them on my current vehicles, my knowledge of ABS is limited. That is, I have never worked on them or installed them, so I have little idea of what's involved. I'm beginning to get the idea of what's involved, and that's where YOU come in!

If I'm starting with a complete kit, I would need to get a complete ABS system from "an ABS vendor". Your recommendation?
Apparently, the wiring harness that comes with the kit does not support ABS. How much trouble is it to wire the system (ABS)?

I have no plans to track the car, nor will I drive it in the winter. Is this a useful addition or not (in your opinion)? My original thinking was that the roadster is a very light car and the standard brakes were designed for a Mustang weighing considerably more. I wonder how easy they are to lock up.

If you installed ABS in your car, would you do it again or was it a "nice to have" that really didn't add much to your build?

OK, last item: how do you like the dog? (avatar) He's about the same size as a real coyote and I didn't want to mess with copyrights on Wiley E. Coyote cartoons, so there he is. I'll change it once I have something to take a photo of (e.g. frame, engine, master cylinder... you get the idea)

Thanks, guys - I look forward to your advice on the brakes.

[6t8dart]

Abs is the way to go for the average person not track trained and able to properly proportion them.

[edwardb]

If you want ABS, then go for it. I'm sure forum members will recommend that you do. But just to put your mind at ease, I've built two Roadsters. Both with power brakes, but never attempted to install ABS. The Mk3 had the PBR OEM style brakes that FFR sells with their complete kit. Drove the car three seasons. The brakes were very strong, very stable, with several very strong panic stops during the time I drove it. The brakes could easily lock all four corners. Never was directional stability a problem. Always straight ahead, always under full control. I don't have as much experience with the Wilwood brakes in my Mk4, but so far I have the same feeling. All good. Couple things to keep in mind IMO. First, these cars will typically not see some of the conditions where ABS is an advantage, e.g. wet roads, dirt/gravel roads, winter conditions, etc. At least not with any regularity. Second, yes these cars are light but they have huge high traction tires. Much larger than your typical DD. My point is this. If you decide to do ABS, great. But don't feel like the car is going to go diving into a ditch every time you hit the brakes without ABS. It won't. You can drive it with confidence. One other point that I'll just throw out there. During my career I've worked for a couple companies that supplied brakes and ABS components to the automotive industry. I'm an IT guy, not an engineer. So I can't speak with any specific knowledge. But what I do know is that the mfg's spend a great deal of time designing and testing the ABS systems for specific cars. It's really not clear to me how viable it is to take an ABS system off one car and put it on one that is completely different, e.g. different weight, different suspension, different front/back weight balance, etc. It must work, because guys do it successfully. But just makes me wonder...

[2bking]

I have the same options as you except for the seats. You can check out my build thread for some ABS pictures. I don't have any driving experience with the car except go-cart but I did purposely activate the ABS system by hard stopping on gravel and it worked. It certainly slowed my build down with the extra lines, mounting and electrical wiring. There are 3 channel and 4 channel units from Mustangs and other cars that will work. Mine is a 3 channel that activates the rear wheels with one brake line. The rear ABS sensor wheels for the IRS axles are a little hard to find new and removing them from salvage parts might warp the parts. I got the rear ABS wheels from The Drive Shaft Shop and bought the rest off E Bay including the connectors and wiring harness.

The ABS doesn't care what vehicle its on, it senses wheel rotation and removes/modulates pressure to the slower one using the internal pump. Greg M is the master for pioneering the build info and will probably chime in here. Searching the forums will get you hours of reading on the subject.

[edwardb]

The ABS doesn't care what vehicle its on, it senses wheel rotation and removes/modulates pressure to the slower one using the internal pump.

In the strictest sense, that's true. The ABS doesn't know what vehicle it's on. That's my point. The valve block/pump motor/ECU assembly is platform specific. Does it make a difference in this application? I don't know and I have zero data that is does. If you install, just test carefully to make sure it's working the way you expect.

[CraigS]

I don't have a problem w/ ABS except this. Some feel it is a way to fix the usual FFR problem of having way too much front brake and not enough rear. This is usually exhibited by way too easy locking of the front tires which limits serious deceleration. I disagree. The brake system needs to be balanced front to rear mechanically/hydraulically, and then add ABS. Don't use ABS as a crutch.

[2bking]

The valve block/pump motor/ECU assembly is platform specific.

Just to add a little clarity, the ABS is a stand alone system. If the ECU is involved, it only communicates codes. ABS will work without an ECU.

[edwardb]

Just to add a little clarity, the ABS is a stand alone system. If the ECU is involved, it only communicates codes. ABS will work without an ECU.

Many recognize ECU = Engine Control Unit. Right, a completely different system. Sorry about the confusion. ECU also can be Electronic Control Unit. That's what we called them. Looked up Mustang ABS modules, and see the electronic assembly (the black assembly attached to the valve block where the connector is attached) called an ECU, an ECM (Electronics Control Module), EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module), etc. etc. Take your choice I guess. The ABS system won't work without this module. Takes the input from the wheel speed sensors, and along with other data (vehicle speed, position, etc.) has a microprocessor that controls the pump motor and solenoids in the valve block. Some models also include logic that's part of traction and stability control. All platform specific. Again, sorry for any confusion.

[R Thomas]

Interesting thread - I have nothing to say for or against ABS but in trying to decide I would certainly want to clarify two things. What is the intent of using ABS and what conditions will you subject the car to... If the system is balanced for a car that is say 55% front weight and 45% rear does that mean the rears will lock first on a car that is 49% front and 51% rear? Better know that answer, locking rears first big control issue. Most ABS demo's I have seen show the virtues of locking the car up in the rain, my personal plan for rain is staying out of it and certainly not employing any 'spirited' driving if caught out in it.

[Al_C]

Thanks for all the input. I learned a lot over the past couple of days, but I have a lot more to learn. What I decided is this: if I go with the Wilwood upgrade, I know I'll have a system that's compatible for ABS (that's 2bking's configuration) and I can go either way. I needed to make a decision pretty quick on the specs, so I got that part taken care of. Craig makes a valid point - get the system right and don't use ABS as a crutch. King makes a valid point: ABS added time and complexity. Maybe I don't need ABS. We'll see what develops over the coming weeks!

[Avalanche325]

It is really just a "do you think YOU need it" call. If you are younger, and have only driven ABS cars, then probably a good idea for the street. But, if you know how to properly modulate brakes, you can stop faster without it. A lot of people think that ABS stops you faster. It doesn't. What it does is that it allows you to gorilla stomp the brakes and still steer. Which is what typical drivers do in a panic stop. A lot of people disable ABS for the track.

I have the FFR sold Wilwoods. They are very solid and strong. They have the right amount of rear braking when adjusted properly. They are very predictable and modulate very well.

I agree. If you do ABS, disable it and get your brakes set up correctly. Then turn it on.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...if you know how to properly modulate brakes, you can stop faster without it. A lot of people think that ABS stops you faster. It doesn't. What it does is that it allows you to gorilla stomp the brakes and still steer. Which is what typical drivers do in a panic stop. A lot of people disable ABS for the track...

THANK YOU!!!!

Jeff

[AnthonyS]

I'm going to disagree. I could tell you exactly under what conditions and how GM tested their ABS systems back in the 80s for a reference if needed, but in crappy road conditions (not on a dry race track) ABS will stop faster than anyone trying to modulate the brakes.

On real roads covered in oil, coolant, littered with pot holes and lots of surface imperfections, and then let's add some rain or sleet.... I'll take the ABS car every time.

Now if you are talking lap times in a well set up car in great conditions, sure an non-ABS car can be faster. In fact there are conditions in which ABS will still stop a car and leave in you in control where it would be simply impossible otherwise (e.g. the original testing protocol for ABS).

[2bking]

I understand the argument for modulating the brake pedal and we have all been in the situation of a panic stop where ABS takes over and the car seems to have less braking. In my experience this has happen on dry pavement where braking talent can excel over ABS.

I added ABS for the reasons AnthonyS stated. Modulating the brake pedal changes the fluid pressure to all wheels. ABS changes it per channel and senses the wheel speed in the kilo hertz range. Today I was reminded how well ABS works as it has been raining and some mud was on the road. As I approach the stop sign in my DD the mud provided a slippery surface for one wheel and ABS took over and provided a nice smooth stop.

[AnthonyS]

I have a little more time to elaborate today. I have way more help with the kiddos with grandma and mom here for mother's day.

So back in the '80s GM was interested in buying Bosch ABS modules but they wanted to design a test to ensure they actually worked. The testing was done in Michigan in the winter. The engineers came up with a crazy idea. They made the road have strips of ice and dry pavement. Well the brakes worked. So next they did alternating strips of ice and dry pavement such that when the left side wheels were on ice and the right side was on dry pavement and vice versa. So even on alternating strips of ice and dry pavement the vehicles still stopped perfectly straight. So the final test was to take this alternating left right ice dry pavement and the put it into a decreasing radius turn. Now hard braking in a decreasing radius turn is usually spintastic, doing it on alternating patches of ice and dry pavement is just ludicrous. Well the ABS modules worked and the cars stopped perfectly and under control. My dad was on hand for the testing and can elaborate a lot more if needed. He was in the automotive testing business for around 30 years.

ABS will simply just save your butt in really awful situations that you cannot control such as very bad weather and road conditions.

On the racetrack ABS was pretty successful too along with traction control which is why Formula 1 banned all driver's aids in '93 or '94. The funny thing is that Nigel Mansell retired champion the same minute that happened. I guess he didn't want to drive his Williams F1 car without the driver aids. It's also why one can easily argue Michael Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time (no driver's aids when he won most of his races).

[CraigS]

My opinion is that some of the early ABS systems back in 85 or so could be beaten by a good driver in certain conditions. I also think that is no longer the case for a few reasons. 1- many old systems coupled the rear wheels together and operated both calipers based on the one w/ the least traction. So what about the caliper w/ more traction? lost overall braking potential. 2- think about computers in 85 vs 2015. I worked for BMWNA then and all us field people got upgraded to a 5 series so we could experience ABS. It was fantastic, but you could easily count the system cycles because you could feel them in the brake pedal and hear them. Today is WAY different. Every ABS system operates all 4 wheels separately and the system cycles now feel like a buzz. 3- I realize that only people who have driven race cars and paid very close attention to the brake system understand this but here is how the best manual brakes work. We carefully adjust the front to rear bias to our preference IN A STRAIGHT LINE. Then we drive the car and the critical braking is into a turn. So now the inside front has less traction than the outside front, and we modulate the brakes to keep the inside front from locking. In doing this we REDUCED the braking effect on three wheels to favor that one inside front wheel. Now add a current ABS system to the car. We can let that ABS system reduce the braking to the inside front ONLY, to keep it from locking. Meanwhile the other three wheels have full braking. Where this ability enters into our normal world is in a panic stop that also needs some steering to avoid something. Just slam that brake pedal as hard as you can and steer how you need to. If you haven't tried this I strongly recommend that you do in your daily driver. Find an open parking lot in the rain. Think about a car that pulled out in front of you but realized his error and stopped 1/2 way across your lane. Get up to about 45 mph, slam the brakes and hold them, and wip the steering wheel 1/2 turn left and then 1/2 turn right. I suspect you will be astounded. Your car will go where you steer it and it will stop sooner than you can imagine. BTW don't try this in an SUV. Their center of gravity is high enough that you could end up upside down. Other than braking below about 25 mph in snow or ice, where locking all 4 wheels can be better, current ABS systems will beat a driver every time.

[jceckard]

One day while driving home on a beautiful, sunny, dry, 70 degree, pleasant, evening in my 02 F150 FX4 ext cab 6.5' bed - just to give you an idea of top heaviness and wheelbase - I was distracted by something off to the left. I know, stupid right - it happens. When I looked back I was facing the brakes lights of the car in front of me. Panic stop and a half second later the realization that "I'm not gonna make it" sets in. Half turn right, half turn left, I'm on the shoulder (grass and a little gravel). Come to a stop. Checked my drawers. Good on all counts. The family in the car that I almost turned into an accordion, was shaken but otherwise ok. The ABS in the truck worked flawlessly and I'm glad it did. I'm sure the other family was too.

Now, if we consider the roadster is half the size and weight and much lower to the ground, would have it stopped in time? I don't know. Probably. Would you risk it?

Point of this story is: even under perfect driving conditions you could be facing someone's brakes lights up close. If you're a skilled enough driver - many of you are I'm sure - you may not need ABS. If you're like me, maybe you do. I do fine with what I have, but then again I don't have a 2000 pound beast with 400+ HP (yet!).

[Avalanche325]

One day while driving home on a beautiful, sunny, dry, 70 degree, pleasant, evening in my 02 F150 FX4 ext cab 6.5' bed - just to give you an idea of top heaviness and wheelbase - I was distracted by something off to the left. I know, stupid right - it happens. When I looked back I was facing the brakes lights of the car in front of me. Panic stop and a half second later the realization that "I'm not gonna make it" sets in. Half turn right, half turn left, I'm on the shoulder (grass and a little gravel). Come to a stop. Checked my drawers. Good on all counts. The family in the car that I almost turned into an accordion, was shaken but otherwise ok. The ABS in the truck worked flawlessly and I'm glad it did. I'm sure the other family was too.

I had pretty much the same thing happen to me, but add in an icy road. The big difference was that I was in a 66 Mustang Fastback with no ABS, of course. I lifted off the brake, right, left, re-applied. Like I stated earlier, if you know not to gorilla stomp the brakes and hold them, you can control the car. Average drivers won't lift off of the brakes. Some will even lock their elbows and not steer. So, most people probably should consider ABS. I just wanted to make clear what ABS does and does not do, and it does not stop you faster if you know what you are doing. In certain conditions you will even stop faster if you lock up because you actually create a wedge of material in front of the tire. I am certainly NOT bashing ABS, seat belts, air bags, or condoms. It is just when you ask the average person what ABS brakes do for them, they will say "They stop you faster".

From aaafoundation.org:

"Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without it?

Under most conditions, a vehicle with a good anti-lock brake system can stop in a slightly shorter distance than an average driver could accomplish in the same vehicle without ABS; however, that is not the main purpose of ABS, and the difference is generally not great enough to notice or be of any real use. ABS certainly doesn't improve your stopping distance nearly enough to justify driving faster or following more closely!

ABS can actually lengthen stopping distances on some surfaces, such as loose snow, dirt, or gravel, because of effects that occur during locked-wheel skidding that are unique to those surfaces.

The importance of ABS to you as a driver is that it helps you to retain control of your vehicle during a maximal braking effort. Without ABS, if you brake hard enough to lock your wheels, you will not be able to steer the vehicle, and the vehicle may skid sideways or spin around. Two-wheel ABS will prevent the vehicle from spinning out of control, and four-wheel ABS will actually allow you to retain the ability to steer your vehicle while you're still braking."

[jvsantosmd]

"The importance of ABS to you as a driver is that it helps you to retain control of your vehicle during a maximal braking effort. Without ABS, if you brake hard enough to lock your wheels, you will not be able to steer the vehicle, and the vehicle may skid sideways or spin around. Two-wheel ABS will prevent the vehicle from spinning out of control, and four-wheel ABS will actually allow you to retain the ability to steer your vehicle while you're still braking."

Couldn't have said it better... ABS has become so advanced it is not allowed in Formula 1 cars, drivers must do their own braking. For a race or track car, ABS is also a no-no. For a daily driver, no matter what the weather or road conditions, I would pick ABS over non-ABS car any day. Check out a very old Excellence magazine article on the comparison between Porsche's 928 1985 vs 1986... the difference that the 1986 had ABS... and we're talking ancient 1986 ABS: The ABS system is a lifesaver, an ego saver, a front bumper saver. If you can find a stand alone unit, and there are several lying around in junkyards (recyclers ?), try to get one. Just for your peace of mind. Even may lower your insurance rates.

[Corsair]

My daily Driver is a 2001 Ford Falcon with ABS, I have been driving it for 6 years and have never had the ABS system activate, (have had to change my underwear a few times tho following a few close calls), the ABS system is one of those things that if you have it and don't need it, great... if you need it and don't have it.... OH (insert preferred expletive).
IMO it would be worth the time and money to add that little bit of extra insurance to have the ABS system installed in your pride and joy as you have spent a fairly large chunk of cash on it and the ABS might save you having to buy that new shell because you did gorrilla stomp the brakes...
I would also suggest once the car is registered, taking it to a basic defensive driving course where you can stomp the brake pedal to the firewall and the only thing you are going to hit is witches hats. I did one very soon after I got my drivers licence and it was a great day, very helpfull and watching the porsche 911 skid and spin across the skid pad and up the embankment was highly amusing, after working out the driver was fine (the drivers father had instructed him to pull on the hand brake in an emergency about 15 years earlier and the driver had remembered it to that day).

[Avalanche325]

(the drivers father had instructed him to pull on the hand brake in an emergency about 15 years earlier and the driver had remembered it to that day).

That's funny. I remember reading a rant by automotive journalist Satch Carlson about incorrectly calling the hand or parking brake an "emergency brake". He said something like: Get going down the interstate at 70 mph. Pull that handle up just as hard as you can. An emergency is exactly what you'll have.

I am 100% on board with doing autocross or a performance driving class as a safety measure when you have one of these.

[Al_C]

I agree with the performance driving class, too. (maybe we should start a thread on that?) I've had others make the same recommendation, knowing what I'm about to begin. I know there's a school in western Michigan, but need to see what's in the Chicago area.