Do you think it's worth the money to have an engine built or buy a crate engine?

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Grrrrr.....I might be the wrong person to ask about this. The fact that I'm not a fan of GM does not fit well with the fact that I make my living building cars based around GM parts. With that said, I would say that about 90% of the problems I've had with these cars comes from problems with the GM parts.

The first car I built......had the engine (donor LS1) running multiple times for over a year in the GTM. Suddenly it would not start. That was the dreaded VATS problem....which forced me to spend a bunch of money on HP Tuners.

The second car I built was a new crate LS376......sort of. This was when the LS376 first came out....so to adapt it to the GTM, the owner had an engine builder swap out the 58 tooth crank sensor with a 24 tooth sensor so that we could run the C5 engine computer. The first start of this engine resulted in a large pool of oil on the shop floor. There is a cover on the engine block behind the flywheel. The bolts were only finger tight. This, of course, required pulling the transaxle and clutch and flywheel off and tightening the bolts for that cover panel. Put everything back together and restarted the engine. Now we only had a small puddle of oil on the floor. Oil pan leaks. Pull oil pan, install new gasket and put back together. No leaks. Take car to dyno. They can't get it to run right....car spent 3 days there. Found out all of the intake manifold bolts were only finger tight. Tightened bolts. Completed dyno tune. Drove it an ran it with no problems during test drive. Delivered to customer. Car won't idle. At all. Dies unless you have your foot on the throttle. That was about 9 years ago....so I don't even remember what needed to be done to fix it. We found a local tuner to come look at it, and I think he ended up changing the tune to fix it?

Next GTM we built had a Katech Street Attack engine. Katech supplied the entire package...engine, ECU, harness, etc. Took to the dyno tuners after the car was completed. They worked on it for 2 days and could not get it to not die when coming down from idle. Katech would not provide any help. Called them multiple times......you'd think that $29k would buy you some support.....apparently not.

One of the next cars we built had a stock LS376 crate engine in it. This was during the time when they had a rash of oil pick-up tubes with a cut o-ring. Before I installed the engine, I pulled the pan and sure enough, the O-ring was cut. Replaced the O-ring.

Since then, if memory serves, I've had a total of one engine that I've installed that didn't leak oil. Some leak a lot, some just seep enough to keep the oil pan damp. After working on 24 different GTM's, I've come to the conclusion that LS engines just leak oil....apparently this is just normal. If not, then I have the worst luck in GM engines.

In the past 5 years, I'd say I've had the best luck with just plain ol' stock GMPP crate engines. We've installed lots of LS376's and the 376 "Special" 525hp engines with the stock GMPP ECU provided with the engine. Use a single 4" CAI with the MAF sensor installed in the center of a straight length 4" tube. They all start and run and idle fine. They seem to be the most "turn key"....with no major drivability issues or absolute need to tune them. I'm sure a good tuner can squeeze more out of them, but at least they run and idle right out of the box. You might have an oil leak here or there, but for the most part, at least they start and run and idle.

flowtowngtm's car was the first and only experience we've had with Mast Motorsports.....and it also started, ran and idled great, right out of the box. Also the engine with the scariest amount of torque. The only GTM I've driven that I would't even think about putting the pedal to the floor in 3rd gear at 80mph. I've never experienced wheel spin at 80mph, but was fairly certain that I easily could have......and I never want to experience that.

[The Stig]

Thank you Shane!

I knew that you had seen your share of issues with LS crate engines along the way. I also remember you having multiple issues with leaking water pumps where the gaskets on the back covers leaked on a car that had been sent to Europe. That had to be a fun phone conversation...

I had heard of another similar story regarding Katech. High dollar LS7 detonated in the first 500 miles, and they pretty much turned their backs on the engine owner.

My GMPP LS2 is running well, now... But it took a few days at the tuner to get it to run smoothly, and idle at start-up and when coming off the RPM's. I had to have the computer flashed twice, and then the tuner did his thing. We did have trouble with oil leaking from the valve cover gaskets. Replaced them and I haven't had any issues with leaks since.

And I agree 100%... Wheel spin at speed is not something that I ever care to experience either. I'm too old for that sort of stuff. Plus it would just piss my wife off; and I prefer to avoid that when possible.

The issues that you spoke of, specifically the loose bolts and cut o-rings on the oil pick up tubes, and things of that nature are what made me want to ask this question in the first place.

The auto makers a selling crate engines because they think they can make a profit from them in the custom car market. The problem, is that they are increasing the production volume at the engine plants to keep up with OEM manufacturing, as well as to supply their "Performance Parts" sales avenues with inventory. This forces the assembly line to turn more screws in the same amount of time, which can apparently result in some critical bolts to not be tightened or torqued.

The flip side of this, should be the Custom Engine Builder(s) who build to order. I would imagine that 95% of the engines that they build are built to specific specs per the customers order. I wouldn't think that there would be much volume being generated to build engines to sit on racks until someone calls to order.

So in this scenario, you would think that they would be able to take their time, and make sure that everything is done right. That's what their web-sites say... Yet, we hear far too often about $30,000 engines that detonate right out of the gates...

That makes me wonder if these are one-off circumstances spread around the engine building industry, or if there are certain builders that the people here have noticed similar patterns.

Who's great at what they do, (Product, Warranty, and Customer Service)? And Who would you stay away from?

Take care Buddy! I appreciate the info. There's nothing like good honest feedback.

Mike

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Thank you Shane!

I knew that you had seen your share of issues with LS crate engines along the way. I also remember you having multiple issues with leaking water pumps where the gaskets on the back covers leaked on a car that had been sent to Europe. That had to be a fun phone conversation...


Mike

Ahhhh....yes. I had forgotten all about that. That was actually a crate GMPP LS7 from SMC...and the crank pulley bolt came loose and backed out and wore a hole in the coolant line. That bolt is supposed to be torqued to some insane spec....I forget what....but I know it is not fun.....torque to yield. No possible way it was ever torqued at all from the factory.

The waterpump was a different issue on a different car. Brand new waterpump that (I believe) Schwartz welded AN fittings on to. Coolant just poured out from behind it. Pulled the pump to find that the O-ring groove under the rear cover looked like it was machined with a chainsaw. This was a brand new OEM GM water pump. I could not simply replace the pump because the pump housing was already modified with the AN fittings.....so I spent a couple hours with a popsicle stick and some fine emory cloth to sand the bottom of the O-ring groove back down smooth......along with a good coating of permatex. Reinstalled the pump and it still leaked coolant out from under the head of one of the bolts that holds the pump to the engine block. Removed it again to find that there was a casting void from inside the bolt boss to the coolant passage. Filled the bolt boss with urethane, installed the bolt and torqued it down. Not what I would normally prefer to do, but it was either that or spend another couple hundred bucks on AN fitting and labor to weld them on to a new waterpump.

And your mention of valve cover gaskets reminds me that we had a brand new GMPP LS376 with the same problem. Pulled the valve cover to find that a 4-5" section of the gasket had been rolled over and installed sideways in the groove. No, it didn't seal very well that way..... I think it was that same engine that, when I pulled the valve covers, the whole head was full of little orange pieces of crap.....looked like the lock-tite stuff that GM uses....when you pull one of those bolts out and the whole bolt is covered in that rubbery orange lock-tite......and it all rolls up into little chunks like when you use a pencil eraser. I picked out as much as I could......probably a thimble full....which looks like a lot....when it should be hospital-clean in there?