Question - Any interest in bolt in Pre engineered Electric Drive Lines for FFR Kits?

[CdnCobraGuy]

I have been approached by a company that would like to provide pre-engineered all electric drive lines for the Factory Five Cars.

I specified that they would need to be engineered to the point that they are bolt in and plug in with no real in depth electrical knowledge required.

My question to one and all is - hypothetically speaking - if such a driveline were available would you be interested in it?

Price target is in the same range as you would expect to pay for a good old fashioned internal combustion drive line. Power and range are targeted to be what one would expect from a car with the looks of any of the FFR offerings.

Let me know your thoughts.

[Steve91T]

Not for me.

[David Hodgkins]

I was very interested in electric-drive when I was doing research for my roadster in 2005. I'd be interested to see what packages you come up with. I wouldn't confine the question to the 818 forum, as I assume you will be working on packages for all models?

[thebeerbaron]

I would love to run an electric 818. I've said it a few times on this forum, but the Tesla I drove was by far the most awesome experience I've had behind the wheel. The feeling you get from an electric motor is just amazing - no waiting, no shifting, just pure response.

That said, I think that packaging, weight, and pricing are going to be sticking points. The Tesla is no lightweight, its battery pack costs $36,000 ($12,000 if you prepay), and the batteries take up lots of space. Sure, Prius batteries cost less ($3,000 range), but their power density isn't as good.

So yes, if you could do what your source says, I'd be all over that. But my gut is that to meet the cost targets you outlined, the sacrifices in weight and performance (assuming no changes to the FFR packaging) are going to make it a no-go for me.

[bromikl]

Electric drive is one of the reasons I first became interested in kit cars. I was surfing the web trying to get a feel for how much it would cost to convert a gas car to electric when I found the FFR website.

At first, I thought I'd build an electric GTM and then: FFR announced the 818 project. Now I intend to build two 818's - first one gasoline, second one electric.

I am very interested in the turbine generator electric drive someone has already done with the GTM. The engineering is far beyond me, but I'd love a chance to duplicate the concept. (BTW, I found very little info on the project. If anyone could point me toward a website or a blog about how they did it, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.)

[Gun Bunny]

Interest is hard to guage without performance specs (range, power, etc.). However, count me interested, at the very least. It's an idea worth exploring.

[Flashburn]

I'm interested for sure.
As others have stated, it depends on how well engineered it is.
It would have to be better than something I can piece together myself.

If I pieced one myself, it would have 2 light duty motors at the front wheels and 2 powerful ones at the rear wheels. And the motors would be sprung weight.
One great advantage of an electric drivetrain is you can get AWD for cheap and efficiently.

Regen braking. It has to have regenerative braking and that has to be the major component of braking. If you can accelerate to the limits of wheel traction with the motors, you can brake to the limits of wheel traction and recover that energy. The only limits here should be #1 front motor capacity and #2 capacitor/ battery charge rates.

Range: with hardcore regen braking at 4 wheels and a lightweight car this should not be a problem. If modifications are needed to the body aerodynamics to increase range that's also a thought. At a minimum, underbody panels should be available.

[Ks2]

Regenerative braking requires an AC drive system which requires additional electronic controls to convert the DC battery power to 3phase for the motors, as well as to control the motors themselves additionally the AC motors (for decent ones) typically are more expensive then a comparable DC alternative. One motor per tire will require additional controls to keep all of them running at the same speed and RPM, there is a reason the tesla has only one motor because one 15-20hp motor is all you really need, 4x5hp motors at each wheel gets complicated fast

personally one large AC 'squirrel cage' induction motor would offer the best benefits, tied to the existing transmission and drive train to save cost and to allow the maximum speed range throughout the useable RPM of the motor. additionally these motors are already offered with sealed and water/explosion proof outer casings for the industrial market. we converted a miata to electric power using this particular motor

looking at lead acid batteries you are adding around 700-900 pounds, (you can have around 500-600 with lithium ion). expect to pay in the 10-15,000$ range for a pack of lightweight lead acid that can power the car, though you will be replacing it in 6-9 years (estimated since it depends on alot of things)

since this setup wouldn't be much different from a converted miata, expect a range of around 20 miles (assuming 15hp AC motor, lead acid batteries, low rolling resistance tires, and around 2000lb GVW) mileages varies based on how hard you accelerate, hills, wind and how new the batteries are to name a few variables (having headlights/stereo/wipers or whatever on will reduce range and how much power you can put down to the ground as well)

it can be done, but at a significant cost (even for a simple setup) electric vehicles have a number of really significant faults to them. for a car like this i wouldn't personally run it on electric power, the additional wieght and different center of gravity/balance will make the 818 handle poorly, the electric motor will either not put enough power to the ground to compete and even if it can compete it wont have the electricity reserves to compete very long.

(SUMMARY) if you just need the car to drive to and from work (assuming you can charge it at work) then it is plausible, but for a high performance street/track car, you need alot of investment and performance wise you wont get much.

[keys2heaven]

Batteries are what's holding me back. Too many, too heavy, too expensive. When battery tech evolves such that these are no longer a factor, then i'll be interested.

[Slaughter]

If the price is right - does not add too much weight - and easy to charge im 100% interested! Keep me up to date!

[kach22i]

I would love to have my next car to be all electric without having to turn engineer or succumb to some bland or ultra expensive offering by others.

[bradley_norris]

Count me interested! 2000 lbs plus electric drive... that is a dream car.

What is the target cost? Drivetrain Vs. Batteries... your first response was vague as to what was included.
What is the target power HP/Torque?

What battery technology do you plan to include: lead? nickel? etc.?

What about Texas-required accessories such as AC or Montana-required heat? Will that be designed into the system from the beginning?

Thank you!

Bradley Norris

[Justen]

Batteries are what's holding me back. Too many, too heavy, too expensive. When battery tech evolves such that these are no longer a factor, then i'll be interested.

ditto.
I was actively looking into what types of motors/ batteries would fit into the 818 already, but I found the batteries are either too big and heavy, or too expensive to be realistic.

package a motor and lithium batteries for a descent price and i'm in

[mn_vette]

If you could do it for the same weight, cost, and performance as a gas engine I may consider it. If there was a system that wasn't all electric that I could still take on road trips, then I would be all over that. Something similar to that blackbird GTM would be great, but it would be expensive.

[Ks2]

our electric miata cost about 11,000$ in parts (motor wiring controllers etc) another 16,000$ for a lithium battery back and has a range of upwards of 40 miles. the car itself was picked up for 2000$, we lightened it, new tires and whatnot and were able to sell off alot of the existing drive train components toward the cost of the build so we broke even on it (motor and trans alone covered most of it)

total investment around 28000 (plus a ton of other misc. bits and pieces that i haven't accounted for). don't get me wrong i love it, it's a great project, fun to drive and doesn't cost much in electricity. but it wouldn't last an entire track day, a few hours of abuse tops. even the tesla roadster cant handle more then a couple hours of hard driving (youtube top gear bbc when they test it). i say go for it if you have the time, money (and in our case about 15 engineering students, a case of beer and a couple weekends) but be REALISTIC about what you will get out of it for the money

to answer some of the above questions;
-expect about 10-15 horsepower with 3-4k typical running RPM (direct drive with 1 to 1.1 drive ratio in back axle), doesn't sound like much but it is an incredibly efficient engine with max torque at 0 RPM
-range with a nice (better then we have) lithium pack can be upwards of 60miles on a single charge, with lead acid maybe 20, (im spitballing here because range is dependent on how many KW your battery pack has, assuming watts = volts X amps our wattage is (12v*13batteries) * (our amperage draw say 600 amp) and we have roughly a 900kw (give or take) battery pack, the KW capacity (and thus range) is limited by the size of the battery back, a 13 battery lead acid pack is (assuming average 40lb battery) 520 pounds
- 0-60, it is no slouch... but about the same as the original NA 2.0l (i think) gas motor (i don't have times sorry) and that is considering that you don't have to shift the electric
-also it does have heat, courtesy of a electric toaster and a couple small fans, works well for such a small car, but for AC... well we chose a convertible for a reason

[kach22i]

What about those zinc to air batteries Popular Mechanics and PS keeps bringing our attention to every five years?

The large radiator inlets on some of these designs could put that air flow to use.

[Steve91T]

Give it another 5 or so years and you'll see more electric vehicles. There's a company that has a small homebuilt airplane kit that's electric powered that's ready to go, they are just waiting for battery technology to catch up.

Steve

[keys2heaven]

At least that's my opinion. And, as we start to switch to electric, how will those oil baron's make their money? My guess...they'll control the battery technology.

My want list would include:

A vehicle that only takes a couple of hours to recharge.

A useful range of 1000 miles on a charge.

Today's batteries can't deliver.

[Ks2]

At least that's my opinion. And, as we start to switch to electric, how will those oil baron's make their money? My guess...they'll control the battery technology.

My want list would include:

A vehicle that only takes a couple of hours to recharge.

A useful range of 1000 miles on a charge.

Today's batteries can't deliver.

close the limiting factor is the rarity of lithium, if it wasn't for government subsidies (no i am not making a political point just stating a fact) electric cars would be much more expensive. for everything else it will be several decades. even if these technologies existed the failing energy grid in the US couldn't support them and we would be burning more fossil fuels in power plants then we would have in the first place due to losses in power transmission

electric cars and hybrid cars failed in the late 1800's and early 20th century because of batteries

[dhrivnak]

Please count me in and I would like to know more. I am thinking about an all electric version of the MK4 Roadster. It would be powered by a 28KW lithium pack that should weigh 620 lbs and the electric motor 200 lbs. But I would not need an engine, cooling system, exaust, and I think I can do away with the transmission. So weight should be about the same as most gas powered cars. That is enough power to go 100+ miles on a charge.

I have done 3 electric builds and I currently drive a Tesla that is wickedly fast and will do over 200 miles on less than $4 of electricity. I am convinced electric drive vehicles will be a large part of our transportation solution. The Tesla is definately the most fun and responsive car I have EVER driven.

PS TopGear was a bit of misinformation. When they claimed the Tesla was out of energy after 55 miles and pushed it off the track it still had 25% charge and the rep drove it back to the store with NO issues. Wit normal driving it still have 50 miles of charge. See an entertaining video of a rebuttle.

[bromikl]

If available, I'd prefer a series hybrid electric. A super-efficient diesel generator recharging a relatively small battery pack, which powers a modestly powered AC motor good for about 5-10 miles on battery alone, and speeds up to 85 MPH. The generator should be sized to allow continuous travel at 75-80 MPH. As a diesel engine, it should also be able to run bio-diesel. I'll pass on gimmicks such as solar panels and whatnot.

[Steve91T]

I don't get why people still want an electric car. Yes, in the near future, technology will catch up and I'm sure they will be far faster, cheaper, and cleaner than anything else. But for now, why don't you look into turbo diesel? I'm a huge diesel fan and for some reason, diesel technology was hardly advancing for many years, until recently. Look at the new 3/4 and 1 ton pick ups from the famous 3. 800 ft/lbs of tq from the factory! Look at BMW's new 335d. There are guys putting down 300 hp and 450 ft/lbs of tq to the wheels, with no injector noise, no smoke, 5000 RPM redlines, and still getting over 44 MPG on the highway. My "old school" 7.3L Powerstroke is making about 300 hp and 600 ft/lbs tq and even weighing in about 7300 lbs, I still get 20 MPG on the highway.

For me, hybrids are a gimmick. I hate them. Do you know why there are hybrids out there? Because the public don't want a diesel because they feel it's going to be like an old Mercedes. Loud, smokey, smelly, and won't be able to get out of it's own way, going down hill. I think this is all changing. Especially now that BMW is really taking the plunge. VW has the turbodiesel that gets nearly 50 MPG. Wait until the technology really takes off. There are already turbo diesel race cars, and they are doing really well. No smoke, sound like a "normal" engine except a little quieter, and get much better fuel economy than gas engines.

Alright, I'm done now.

Steve

[thebeerbaron]

Pure electric drive is wildly different from turbo diesel, and for me at least, the emissions issue is secondary to the electric experience. That said, I think it will be a while before my desire for an electric sports car is realistic.

[Fast818]

I would be interested as long as it was no more the an normal 818 price

[Cooluser23]

Yes please. Electric drive would be great. The car should have a 100-200 mile range preferably. (for the naysayers, that's quite possible. The Tesla Roadster gets 245, and the sedan gets 300)

[Ks2]

Yes please. Electric drive would be great. The car should have a 100-200 mile range preferably. (for the naysayers, that's quite possible. The Tesla Roadster gets 245, and the sedan gets 300)

and to get that performance and range it would cost roughly 7 times the 15k$ completed 818 with subaru running gear, even if you found a wrecked tesla and used it's drive train and batteries etc your still going to be paying alot for it... don't get me wrong if you have the money anything is possible (well almost anything) but the idea of building an all electric drive car for 25-30k (nearly twice the cost for the subaru drive train) and then expecting it to do what a roughly 110k tesla can do is likely not going to happen. our miata build was less then 30k$ (and we spent only 2k$ on the car mind you) and it does reasonably well, in a lighter frame like the 818 your sure to see more power and range but you cannot for 30k build a tesla... not even close (maybe one as fast but with a very short range or have the long range without the top speed... take your pick though)

the electric miata is alot of fun, really peppy and can charge with two standard 110v outlets (assuming you don't have any big appliances on the same circuit or it sometimes blows fuses and extension cords get really hot as well...) it is alot of fun to build if you enjoy car wiring more then anything else and is relatively maintenance and hassle free, for driving to and from work or to the grocery store or what have you it is dirt cheap to operate and great in city driving (it wastes nothing in traffic or sitting in a drive thru) but it is a LONG way from the tesla

if you have the money go for it i would love to see it and will offer what help i can... if you go with the wrecked/used tesla route i'm sure it can be had somewhere... (edmunds and autotrader are less then helpful). but for a DIY electric setup (assuming you get REALLY good deals on the components) you can often just call the manufacturer and have them ship you the parts (online stores that sell EV parts tend to mark them up alot since they don't exactly fly off the shelves...)

[bromikl]

Ks2, I understand you're one of the few people on the forum who actually converted a car to electric drive. But please stop telling us what can't be done.

Nobody thinks an electric drive 818 will cost the same as a gas version. Range and price will depend on what they design. The pros use technology that few of us have access to. It will undoubtedly be an AC motor and use something other than lead-acid batteries. That stuff is for amateurs working in their garage 40 years ago. A wrecked Tesla? Come on. They will design something with NEW parts available off the shelf today. What would they do if TWO people wanted an electric 818?

I half-heatedly apologize for the rant, but why don't you let the experts put it together before you go on and on about how it won't work.

[FFRWRX]

For me, hybrids are a gimmick. I hate them. Alright, I'm done now.

Steve

Well, I drive a hybrid (Prius) and really like it. In real daily driving I get 61 MPG (Canadian gallons) compared with 28 MPG I was getting in my PT Cruiser (or 27 in my C5 Vette), with absolutely no compromise or downside. What's not to like? It is not my performance, or fun, car (that's what my project cars are for). But for normal daily driving you can't beat it.

Rick

[FFRWRX]

Price target is in the same range as you would expect to pay for a good old fashioned internal combustion drive line. Power and range are targeted to be what one would expect from a car with the looks of any of the FFR offerings.

Let me know your thoughts.

My thoughts are that this is absolute garbage. There is no way on earth it is going to meet the price/power/performance that you are stating. Please prove me wrong.

Rick

[Fast818]

Hi Guys google Calmotors for all your EV needs (battery well that the big $$ question ?) see piucs of motors ,controls and ECM

[kach22i]

Hi Guys google Calmotors

Impressive.

Did you really work on the eRuf?

The Fusion driveshaft motor for existing vehicles is unlike anything I have seen before. Not sure how it would be balanced or strain existing U-joints and adjacent parts, but it sure grabbed my imagination.

Now Bookmarked.

[StatGSR]

Well, I drive a hybrid (Prius) and really like it. In real daily driving I get 61 MPG (Canadian gallons) compared with 28 MPG I was getting in my PT Cruiser

Rick

Yea, after that i sorta stopped caring about what you had to say..... sorry!

[Ks2]

Ks2, I understand you're one of the few people on the forum who actually converted a car to electric drive. But please stop telling us what can't be done.

Nobody thinks an electric drive 818 will cost the same as a gas version. Range and price will depend on what they design. The pros use technology that few of us have access to. It will undoubtedly be an AC motor and use something other than lead-acid batteries. That stuff is for amateurs working in their garage 40 years ago. A wrecked Tesla? Come on. They will design something with NEW parts available off the shelf today. What would they do if TWO people wanted an electric 818?

I half-heatedly apologize for the rant, but why don't you let the experts put it together before you go on and on about how it won't work.

the reason i am coming across negative is (in reverse order):

The car should have a 100-200 mile range preferably

I would be interested as long as it was no more the an normal 818 price

If you could do it for the same weight, cost, and performance as a gas engine I may consider it

I'm not saying don't do it (though i am admittedly playing devils advocate). considering the 818 is a car that for 15k can do what a 60-70k lotus can do i think alot of people think the same can be true of an electric drivetrain that you can build one yourself and get tesla like performance/range which just isn't the case. I just want people to know going in what they will get out of it and how much they will be spending to get that. some have said they alread own teslas and if you have the money for that which could go into this car, i imagine you could do much better then our conversion, even better if companies like calmotors for example can provide 'turn key' * kits for a good price then yes it is entirely possible.

* by 'turn key' i mean pretty much everything is ready to bolt in using existing hard points and includes everything pre-wired and the only part(s) missing is the battery pack, since the battery pack is predominantly what determines range, available power and most importantly (to me atleast) cost.

[bromikl]

It seems your critiques are directed to someone who intends to design and build their own unique electric conversion for the 818.

I don't know which company(s) are considering offering the kits, but the title of the thread is, "Question - Any interest in bolt in Pre engineered Electric Drive Lines for FFR Kits?"

[Gollum]

I think the downfalls are well covered, but I'd like to point out that the statements by this company mentioned in the first post are probably impossible. And the idea of "range that you'd expect from a FFR" is kind of a joke. Even getting 10mpg a roadster will sill outrun any electric vehicle that's sub 3000 pounds. The battery technology just isn't there yet.

And doing it for "the price you'd pay for a normal carbed engine"... what does THAT mean? You can pay 2k for a decent engine, or 100k+ on a true race built engine. And even "normal" could be HP specific. A "normal", realistic 600hp motor will usually set you back about 10k. Is that the kind of money we're talking?

In an case, I'm betting people won't bite on it.... yet. Battery technology is slow coming, but it's moving none the less. So once it gets to the point that you can get 300 miles on a charge and it doesn't cost you six figures people might bite.

The big downfall is that I'm betting hydrogen will make it's debut before then, making batteries completely obsolete.

[BipDBo]

The Leaf has a 24kw*hr battery pack which delivers around 100 miles, which in my opinion, is just about the minimal usefule range. I have doubts that a 24kw*hr kit can be made available for anywhere close to the cost of a gasoline drivetrain. A electric drivetrain in that price range would probably be lacking in both range and power.

What do you think about instead offering an adaptable plug-in hybrid kit? It could include hub motors and a much smaller battery pack, say 8 kw/hr. Hub motors would make it very adaptable. Such a system could be applied to the front wheels of any Factory five kit, with a standard ICE engine in the back. 8kW*hr could produce around 40 hp and about 20 miles of electric only range, and could be charged quickly with a standard outlet. When more power or range is needed, the gas engine is engaged. As long as the DIYer can find a place for the batteries and electronics, it could really be applied to any car turning a RWD or FWD car into AWD. A front wheel drive car would get the motors placed on the rear wheels, like the Saab concept. Such as system would not operate as seemleessly as a Volt, but would get the job done, and probably encourage some old fashioned garage innovation.

[Ks2]

The big downfall is that I'm betting hydrogen will make it's debut before then, making batteries completely obsolete.

you might be right...

http://www.der-wankelmotor.de/wasserstoff.pdf (this is very interesting)

http://evtransportal.org/bmwhydrogen7.pdf (this isn't nearly as interesting)

though both are a ways off... however it may go the same way as supplementing gasoline with propane

also i have seen remarkably few complete conversion kits (sans batteries)... a company could come forward and make one (or with a bit of development F5 or a supporting business could offer one) but to convert a car you typically source the parts yourself, more often then not we bought our parts directly from the manufacturer at (atleast claimed) wholesale price. i imagine a business or person building a kit (assuming they got the same or lower prices on the parts) would cost about the same, any discount in parts is offset by the markups to make a profit or labor involved in assembly etc

however given the nightmare of wiring, multimeters, soldering and everything else involved in our conversion... the extra markup for a complete kit would be very appreciated by anyone thinking of it...

[Cooluser23]

Sorry, I guess I had to qualify. I was hoping for the range of at least 100miles. I never assumed to get the performance of a Tesla Roadster. I'm okay if that car is a turd in the electric version.
I have a specific need for an electric car that would do a 45min-1hour commute from solar panel, to solar panel equipped household. It would dramatically lower the cost of that specific commute.

[Gollum]

you might be right...

http://www.der-wankelmotor.de/wasserstoff.pdf (this is very interesting)

http://evtransportal.org/bmwhydrogen7.pdf (this isn't nearly as interesting)

though both are a ways off... however it may go the same way as supplementing gasoline with propane

also i have seen remarkably few complete conversion kits (sans batteries)... a company could come forward and make one (or with a bit of development F5 or a supporting business could offer one) but to convert a car you typically source the parts yourself, more often then not we bought our parts directly from the manufacturer at (atleast claimed) wholesale price. i imagine a business or person building a kit (assuming they got the same or lower prices on the parts) would cost about the same, any discount in parts is offset by the markups to make a profit or labor involved in assembly etc

however given the nightmare of wiring, multimeters, soldering and everything else involved in our conversion... the extra markup for a complete kit would be very appreciated by anyone thinking of it...

Those are both hydrogen COMBUSTION engines, not fuel cells which is what I was meaning. You can convert electricity to hydrogen at nearly a 90% efficiency, and convert it back at nearly the same rate. So for about a 20% energy loss you can store a LOT more electricity than you can in batteries, thus allowing you you to go a LOT farther, or make more power. The second upside is that hydrogen isn't nearly as heavy as batteries, even considering the more complicated tank requirements.

It's really sad to say for me, but just like cloud computing will take over the computer market, the hydrogen fuel cell electric will eventually take over the car market. It's really just a matter of time I think. It's painful to admit, but I think it's true. The main thing preventing it is that we're still getting the majority of our electricity from fossil fuels, and our model is already so well equipped for oil based products. Once we can move more of our energy sources to "green" sources we can use excess energy to create hydrogen, and then transport that to stations instead of refined petroleum.

For example, the honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car makes over 100hp at will go just under 300 miles. What electric car can boast that? And it's not a hybrid, just a fuel cell, hydrogen tank, and electric motor. And the tank can be refilled in just minutes, not hours like batteries. And the technology is still getting better and better. It's going to be a hard battle for the gasoline powered vehicles to overcome.

[bromikl]

For example, the honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car makes over 100hp at will go just under 300 miles. What electric car can boast that? And it's not a hybrid, just a fuel cell, hydrogen tank, and electric motor. And the tank can be refilled in just minutes, not hours like batteries. And the technology is still getting better and better. It's going to be a hard battle for the gasoline powered vehicles to overcome.

Good point, Gollum. It's really difficult to duplicate the energy density of gasoline. That is the one and only thing going for it. Maybe one day someone will engineer an equivalent fuel from renewable energy (I'm preferential to Hot Dry Rock Geothermal and Thorium Reactors) and a carbon-free life cycle.

There are benefits to storing energy as a pressurized gas. I can tell you I love my new Propane string trimmer I bought this spring. Not because it's Propane - but because there's no mixing, no pouring, no priming, no carb adjustment, and I don't stink of burned oil when I'm done using it.

Gasoline or batteries is what we have today. And they are not equal. We've spent about 200 years advancing ICE design, while electric motors and battery technology have stagnated. As some home garage engineers have shown, the ICE is being shown the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=369h-SEBXd8