818 Project Updates From Dave

[PhyrraM]

Do you think the oil cooler will be moved up there as well?

The oil cooler, on cars that have them, is water cooled. It uses a coolant loop off the water pump.

[16g-95gsx]

Thanks for the Monday morning laugh. I do agree though, the GRM pic looked goofy, I just didn't open my mouth and keep faith that the end product would have been far different.

[Ks2]

i wonder if he means an aftermarket oil cooler, either they mount behind the radiator or on the top of the motor where the top mount intercooler goes... of course if you want this it is because you have a front mount intercooler

http://www.blinemotorsports.com/oilcool.html

i imagine unless you are putting down a stupid amount of power you wouldnt need this... a larger oil pan would do better

[Gollum]

The oil cooler, on cars that have them, is water cooled. It uses a coolant loop off the water pump.

Though I've seen that, I've seen them be freestanding as well. I've even owned a couple of engines that might be one of the first japanese motors with an OEM oil cooler, the L28ET from the 81-83 280ZX turbo. It was a fully fledged tank and end cap design, not a cheap bent line with fins attached like what you see on many cheap ebay coolers too!

Point being, many oil coolers ARE standalone systems that aren't attached to the coolant system. That said though, they don't require huge amounts of air flow.

[Twinspool]

I have heard of nothing but benefits from shunting cooling to the oil system. A thermostatically controlled oil-air cooler set to pull the oil temps down to <200°F would help a great deal, especially in a performance oriented vehicle that's destined to see WOT on every on-ramp it sees.

[Steve91T]

Don't forget, this can also raise the water temps. It goes both ways. I personally would rather have an inexpensive, simple, air to air oil cooler.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

I was only refering to the stock system.

Of course, if you choose aftermarket, the sky is the limit.

[Doc_FFR]

The old spy shots look like the Honda S2000 to me. The production values looked a little "symple" if you know what I mean (No offense). Glad to see things like complex curves and lasers and whatnot. Keep up the good work.

[kach22i]

The old spy shots look like the Honda S2000 to me.

I can definitely see that comparison too, it's a good one. The hood is lower and hind quarters of the S2000 is unadorned, but the mouth is there.

http://www.carpictures.com/Honda/S20...04EHI273826955
04EHI273826955A.jpeg

[Nelff]

Talking about oil coolers that are incorporated into the water cooling system... After talking to a Ford Engineer about their oil cooler on the first 4.6 engines, I learned that the oil temps were controlled both ways. On cold engine startup the water temps go up first. If the oil is circulated through a water heat exchange (the oil cooler) while the water is warming, then the oil is actually brought up to temp sooner. This allows the oil to work at design temp sooner. Then as the oil temp rises the water heat exchange then become an oil cooler. Just a bit of info...

[Draco-REX]

Talking about oil coolers that are incorporated into the water cooling system... After talking to a Ford Engineer about their oil cooler on the first 4.6 engines, I learned that the oil temps were controlled both ways. On cold engine startup the water temps go up first. If the oil is circulated through a water heat exchange (the oil cooler) while the water is warming, then the oil is actually brought up to temp sooner. This allows the oil to work at design temp sooner. Then as the oil temp rises the water heat exchange then become an oil cooler. Just a bit of info...

Yup. A lot of people who have both an aftermarket coolant temp gauge and oil temp gauge have commented on that behavior, and not just in Ford's.

[16g-95gsx]

You also can get oil that doesn't heat up fully during short drives to release condensate, allowing it to build. This is also a bad thing for large air cooled systems.

[ehansen007]

I have 20 PM's that I havent had time to get to! BUT I just couldnt take the criticism and the guys here wanted to wait until the 4 unveil and gloat and say "told you so" but I guess I'm a fragile guy... MR2! Seriously, thanks for the great comments all thru this process which continues with such professionalism and careful consideration. Jim and Jesper have been outstanding and patient. This 818 project is very exciting to me as I am trying to ensure, as I said previously, that our "reach exceeds our grasp". There is so much more to show! Dave

We believe in you man. You've already brought us some great cars and we can't wait for another. Proof this is how your "818 Project updates from DAVE" has turned into such an opinionated chat session! It's hard to even find your updates! Keep up the great work man, the car is looking great.

[Gollum]

Kind of off topic, but if you're really concerned about oil warm up temps, you can get a heating pad designed for people in the frozen north to not require block heaters. Set it on a timer for 15-30 minutes before you leave in the morning and you'll have an engine (and transmission if you get a heater big enough for that too) that's nearly at temp right at the start. Makes for one happy engine.

[David Budd]

OK Dave, I am just about ready to order a kit right now. I don't want/need to wait for your final body design array, I like what I have seen so far and Factory Five has long since earned my trust. Let's forget about the body designs for the moment and concentrate on finishing the chassis design and putting together a useable build parts list and build instructions so that those of us who feel as I do can start now. Later you can show us the body alternatives available. I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not? I want to source my subi donor now, accumulate parts and start wrenching. I want my 818 however it is pronounced!

[Oppenheimer]

I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not?

Well I'm sure that is their hope/plan, but the body designs aren't even close to decided yet, so how could they be sure the same chassis pick-up points will work for all the bodies?

I would think though it would be the same basic chassis, then any chassis pick-up points that are dramatically different from one body to the next would be accomodated by bolt-on or weld-on sub-frames.

But I think the biggest reason they can't get you a parts list yet is they won't know how much they can reuse off the donor until they get farther along with the body. Are there hinges & latches they can reuse? Lamps, fixtures, seats, dash pieces, etc? I don't think they can figure all that out until they have the bodies figured out.

I think the basics of your idea is a good one, get the parts list sorted as soon as possible, even before the car is ready for sale, so people that want to can get a jump on their builds. The sooner these cars hit the streets the sooner the floodgates will open on people outside this community looking to buy.

I just think that day is a lot later than sooner (based on how much left to do to get there).

[Vman7]

Well I have to say from the page before and this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...t-Model-1-of-4

I am really excited! I can't express in words.......so I will express my excitement through graphics.

[BipDBo]

Dave,
I have a question about the target weight. I would think that not all trims of the 818 would weigh the exact same. I would think that the track version would weigh a but less than the road going version, especially if it is missing a roof, doors and a windshield. I would guess that the road and high mileage versions would also have more interior trim and possibly a radio, heat, maybe even A/C? If so equipped, the WRX turbo and intercooler system would also add some weight. Granted, the track version might have a cage that would add back some weight. This begs the question, does the 818kg target apply to all trims, or just one that is "bare bones?" Could we possibly see a road going version that weighs 818 kg, but a track version that weighs even less?

[Ks2]

Kind of off topic, but if you're really concerned about oil warm up temps, you can get a heating pad designed for people in the frozen north to not require block heaters. Set it on a timer for 15-30 minutes before you leave in the morning and you'll have an engine (and transmission if you get a heater big enough for that too) that's nearly at temp right at the start. Makes for one happy engine.

https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/p...products_id=65

30$ super easy to install and works like a charm

[Dave Smith]

Dave,
I have a question about the target weight. I would think that not all trims of the 818 would weigh the exact same. I would think that the track version would weigh a but less than the road going version, especially if it is missing a roof, doors and a windshield. I would guess that the road and high mileage versions would also have more interior trim and possibly a radio, heat, maybe even A/C? If so equipped, the WRX turbo and intercooler system would also add some weight. Granted, the track version might have a cage that would add back some weight. This begs the question, does the 818kg target apply to all trims, or just one that is "bare bones?" Could we possibly see a road going version that weighs 818 kg, but a track version that weighs even less?

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.

[BipDBo]

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.

My mouth is watering.

[Draco-REX]

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.

If a stripped down 818 (no top, no radio, minimalist interior) can approach 1600lbs, I'll... I don't know... probably lose the top of my head as my grin reaches all the way around my skull.

*plays with numbers*

Oh wow... 500 hp/ton with a 400 crank hp motor.

*collapses into a grinning, drooling pile of flesh*

[Ks2]

i am under the impression with some well spent money you could shave even wieght, a lightwieght battery and very light rims would be a nice start

[ScottKoschwitz]

The performance potential of something that light sounds great. Frankly, many who have experience with only modern cars probably have never driven something that light, short of a race car. Hell, my '09 VW GTI is about 3,100 pounds (I still don't understand why it is that heavy). With 200 hp, it's almost too fast for the road, meaning when you put your foot into it, you're at 80 mph before you know it and have to reign it in before you get into too much trouble.

[Draco-REX]

i am under the impression with some well spent money you could shave even wieght, a lightwieght battery and very light rims would be a nice start

Even better spent money:

This:


Is started by this:


And it costs less than $40, and I can palm it in one hand.

[Ks2]

i didnt say it had to be alot.... more then one drag car nearby me is lightwieght thanks to a hole saw...

[kach22i]

Have you guys seen the spy shots the Wookie (David) posted today?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-WITH-A-CAMERA!

[Draco-REX]

Have you guys seen the spy shots the Wookie (David) posted today?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-WITH-A-CAMERA!

I like the flares on the rear wheel arches. They offer perfect "Cut here" lines for pocket flares to cover wide, low offset wheels.

[Draco-REX]

Something has occurred to me. I know they have 4 or 5 designs to reveal at SEMA. But they also have a full-scale model they are building. Would they have gone through all that effort if it was only a 1 in 4 chance they'd use the body?

[thebeerbaron]

Something has occurred to me. I know they have 4 or 5 designs to reveal at SEMA. But they also have a full-scale model they are building. Would they have gone through all that effort if it was only a 1 in 4 chance they'd use the body?

I think yes. I believe the scale was a function of the way it was built/carved/designed and possibly the materials.

[Silvertop]

I think yes. I believe the scale was a function of the way it was built/carved/designed and possibly the materials.

I think you are right about that. They WOULD build it full scale even if there was only a 1-in-4 chance of production. But I think the odds are better than 1-in-4. It is my personal belief that at least 3 of the 4 cars currently being modeled are destined for production, unless they are received poorly at the reveal. The big question is which one will they build FIRST?

Incidentally, the conspiracy theorist in me believes that there are really 5 models currently being made, with the X-818-R being #5. Of course, my believing it doesn't make it so..........

[David Hodgkins]

I believe another reason why they created a full size model was to study what the proportions look like when reduced to 1/4 scale. By studying how it translates from full size to 1/4 scale, it will help them learn what to expect when they translate the 1/4 scale to full size. For example, a side air intake might look good in quarter scale, but look oversized when blown up. By taking known measurments of the full size model and reducing them, and then comparing how they look against the other 1/4 scale models, they will be better able to predict how the full size model will look without going through the expense of creating the full size model.

[BipDBo]

I'm curious about the planned engine orientation for the high mpg model. I imagine that it would be very difficult for the West Philly groud to shoehorn in a GTI into an 818 in the longitudianal arrangment. This brings up the question, if the 818 could accomodate a transverse diesel, what about other transverse engine options. I know that this has been brought up before. I'm just daydreaming with the thought of an ultra lightweight, 400+ hp Hartley V8, or even a lighter weight, ultra-cheap, 200 hp Hayabusa 4 cylinder.

Also, the West Philly "EVX GT" had an electric motor on the front wheels with regenerative braking. Is the 818 being designed with that as a possibility? Since I'm just day dreaming here, and money is of no regard in this dreamland, I'm imagining a 2000 lb 818 with 400+ hp on the back wheels with an 8 kw*hr battery driving an electric motor with about 100 hp to the front wheels. That would be an awesome hybrid.

[Justen]

OK Dave, I am just about ready to order a kit right now. I don't want/need to wait for your final body design array, I like what I have seen so far and Factory Five has long since earned my trust. Let's forget about the body designs for the moment and concentrate on finishing the chassis design and putting together a useable build parts list and build instructions so that those of us who feel as I do can start now. Later you can show us the body alternatives available. I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not? I want to source my subi donor now, accumulate parts and start wrenching. I want my 818 however it is pronounced!

Many of us feel the same way, but the chassis may change before it is finalized and there will be different roll bar options as well for each body style.

[D2W]

Incidentally, the conspiracy theorist in me believes that there are really 5 models currently being made, with the X-818-R being #5. Of course, my believing it doesn't make it so..........

By X-818-R I'm assuming you mean Xabier's race version. I could be wrong but to me his race version is his regular car, lowered/short windshield/louvers on the rear cowl, and a paint job. There may be more, but these are items anybody could do for the same effect.

[Silvertop]

By X-818-R I'm assuming you mean Xabier's race version. I could be wrong but to me his race version is his regular car, lowered/short windshield/louvers on the rear cowl, and a paint job. There may be more, but these are items anybody could do for the same effect.

Yes, I'm referring to Xabier's race version. And you are right, it wouldn't take very much to transform the street version into the 818-R. Which is precisely the point. It means that it also wouldn't be all that difficult to prepare a 1/4 scale 818-R model alongside the street model that we already KNOW is being prepared. And we know that Dave Smith is particularly partial to the race version.

I'm not really saying that they have actually done that. It's probable that they have NOT. But they COULD have. A lot of folks would probably like to see that done up in a 1/4 scale model. And it's fun to speculate.

[thebeerbaron]

It means that it also wouldn't be all that difficult to prepare a 1/4 scale 818-R model alongside the street model that we already KNOW is being prepared.

Beg to differ. Having done some half-assed clay modeling (and having a decent art/clay background), I can tell you emphatically that the RISD model was not easy to prepare, so preparing a race version wouldn't be either.

[Silvertop]

Beg to differ. Having done some half-assed clay modeling (and having a decent art/clay background), I can tell you emphatically that the RISD model was not easy to prepare, so preparing a race version wouldn't be either.

There you go trying to confuse me with FACTS!

[ddorrer]

Dave,

The West Philly High School Popular Mechanics article mentioned, "The TDI technology in this car is slated to become part of the new Factory Five 818 product line-up." Will this be an option in Gen 1?

[Twinspool]

Chevy is adding a diesel powertrain to the cruze as well. More high MPG oil burners FTW!