818 Project Updates From Dave

[Inthenameofweez]

Any ideas on how voting will be handled once all 5 bodies are decided? I certainly hope voting will not take place at SEMA for all attendants to partake in...

I would like the voting to take place on a separate website hosted specifically for voting. Only those who are linked the website through e-mail or a friend link.
I say this for 2 reasons, I think the voting website should be completely separate from all previous discussions on whose car looked the best. What design challenged what aspect of the build. Why this was better than that. I think the voting should include only the following information: Here's our design pitch (details of the chassis). If in fact we are voting for 3 bodies for 3 different cars, this should be expanded upon at the time of voting. For example, my vote is for the 818-R that Xabier designed to be applied to the stripped down race prepped track machine. I also like his hard top adapted street going sports car. I may, however prefer another body for the super high MPG week day grocery getter/daily driver.

That being said, I'm okay with the public being allowed to vote, as not all those interested in this car are enthusiastic enough to be on this forum; along with the SEMA show being a difficult show for some to attend. I am 99% excited to see these cars and 1% excited to enjoy the things that Las Vegas has to offer outside of SEMA. I almost have no care in the world to see anything else. So maybe I'm biased.

I say all that to say this: Please don't let the pretenders be the ones to decide what body goes on this amazing chassis. Oh, and please make the 818-R. Please.

[StatGSR]

a 280hp engine with near 9k rev limit and twin scroll turbo... sounds like a winner to me

thinking JDM swap i take it?

[Oppenheimer]

Did anyone survey the question do you say "eight-one-eight" or "eight eighteen" . I say eight eighteen btw.

Trying to divert our attention and get us arguing about something else? My answer to the pronunciation issue is to simply say "I've heard it both ways". We should get T-shirts that say:

FFR 818
I've heard it both ways

[Oppenheimer]

The decision to go with Xabiers street version was a function of interest and sales (my personal choice was to go with the track car...

The Xabier track car is so close to the street version, it should be easy enough to do both. Its a wing and a shortened windscreen, plus more cage. I would think it possible to offer the wing, windshield, and cage bits as options (mix and match). that could potentially allow for two different track options (whatever you're official track version is, plus the Xabier optioned as track).

If the official 818 Track version ends up including a modified cage, then the Xabier track option ends up as just a windshield and wing option to that chassis.

[Oppenheimer]

...the SEMA show being a difficult show for some to attend...

SEMA is closed to the public. So its more than difficult. I agree with most of your position on the voting, but I think your concerns can be accomodated on the FFR site. Just don't put the poll in this forum to get mixed in with all these other posts.

I will add a caution about opening up to the wider audience of the public at large. Most of the people on here are target audience for FFR. Not all will be able to build an 818 right away, but most everyone here will the second they have the resources to accomplish it. These are the people that FFR needs to hear from about which design they like the best, which design they will stand in line to pay $ for.

The public at large will have valuable feedback too, but for a different use. IMO that feedback should be segregated from the opinions of the target market.

[Inthenameofweez]

The Xabier track car is so close to the street version, it should be easy enough to do both. Its a wing and a shortened windscreen, plus more cage. I would think it possible to offer the wing, windshield, and cage bits as options (mix and match). that could potentially allow for two different track options (whatever you're official track version is, plus the Xabier optioned as track).

If the official 818 Track version ends up including a modified cage, then the Xabier track option ends up as just a windshield and wing option to that chassis.

<3

You win 1 internetz.

[blueafro]

The VBM is a modified GT40 shape and I liked the way they resolved SOME of the issues with downforce and those cues came from me, NOT Jim and I think he still resents me for it (Ha!). I hated the rear end. Jim had more license with the Gen 2 car but to say Jim's design is not his because of fiberglass changes to the GT40 ignores the entire chassis, interior, suspension, ride height, windows side and rear, and a million other things that constitute a design. Plus we did shape the thing out of foam by hand because surface scanning and computer body shape design were still not perfected (or usable to us) in 2002-3.

Dave, thanks for the details. I was always curious about that. BTW, my question wasn't intended to call anyone out, it was genuine curiosity since I didn't know Jim's background and it seemed possible he might have done design work elsewhere. Aside from the Smith brothers, I didn't know the names - much less the backgrounds - of anyone at Factory Five until well after the GTM debuted.

[BipDBo]

As one of the few who is not a fan of the Xabier design, I suspect that the decision to persue his street version and not his track version is one of function rather than form. Xabier's design would make a horrible track version because of its aerodynamics. It has a huge "mouth" stretching from one side of the car to the other. In my opinion, this large mouth doesn't make it resemble the lovely Julia Roberts, but instead likens it to a catfish. More importantly, it is a drag chute. Also, the high hood, which is unneeded because the engine is in the back, will probably create uplift on the front wheels.

[BrandonDrums]

I didn't even comment on the voting thing! WOW!

THIS is how crowd involvement should be. Did I ever mention that the Smyth project was unsubscribed..by me..because I was tired of seeing 12 posts on my facebook news reel of random VW rusty parts everyday.

Here, we might not get as much interaction with the team but at least we feel it's because we're dealing with professionals. Some of the stuff with the go fast go green project seems like tricks for the 24 hours of lemons, not an actual roadgoing car.

I just want my xabier based targa-top in red please! But any of the top 5 winners of the original design contest would look great.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I'm happy to see Xabier's design in clay, as it was one of my favorites. I can't wait to see it (Dave, don't forgot my suggestion of the 818 open house ).

I think polling on the bodies should be open to the groupies on this forum and also Grassroots Motorsports readers and subscribers, since GRM was also part of the design competition.

Hmmmm, as for what to build. I love the idea of the TDI, having owned one for ten years (and still miss it). I think in the 818 body, you would have a very quick, nimble, and incredibly efficient car. On the other hand, I am looking for a Lotus Elise substitute, so I might want a high-rev screamer (though I have to admit that I don't know whether Subaru engines scream to 8,000 RPM or are useless above 5,000).

Whichever engine, I would be interested in the R version, assuming it would have an SCCA-legal cage and would be street legal. I think it would be fun to drive it on the street for a couple of seasons, and then race it. A TDI-powered car in the ITE class might place well in a 12-hour endurance race.

[Ks2]

scott the engine you need is the JDM ej207 version 7 or 8. 7 has all forged internals and the 8 has cast? and a twinscroll turbo stock, they come from the Japanese STI's 02-03, when you import one, most wont have a complete wiring harness, but thats ok if your donor is (in particular) an 02-03 USDM WRX (i cannot comment on other years wiring compatibility) the additions and changes to the harness for the OCV valves are easy like 10 or so wires need added and some others need switched in the plugs in the engine bay and at the ECU the wiring upgrades can be had from IAperformance.com (or you can make them yourself)

i run a version 7 in my daily driver WRX and having driven the 2.5l STI's i prefer the JDM hands down to the new USDM STI's i cannot comment of the 6 speed in these as i have the 5 speed WRX transmission what differences the JDM 6 speed and the US 6 speed will have to be answered by someone else

hope that helps

EDIT fixed so that my previous post is not in this post...

[PhyrraM]

I highly doubt you will see any officially sanctioned vote to determine the first/second/third.etc design. You will see many forum polls from the members, but if FFR starts one, it will clearly have disclaimers attatched.

What will happen is that FFR will take as much feedback as they can read/stand (because there is no way they will be able to read it all), and temper that with internal ideas and concerns, and roll that with a healthly dose of what makes the bottom line blacker. Then FFR will make the final call on what, and how the bodies are rolled out.

[Dave Smith]

Of course in the end, Ive always said it will be Jim's call since that is his job and sooner or later a decision HAS to be made. As far as the Smyth thing, that has nothing to do with FFR and I would never do it that way for obvious reasons. The community question is a good one because I and the crew here dont really believe in the general public. This is the FFR community and the guys at Grassroots Motorsports were a valued addition as they brought racing and build-it hands on feedback to the community... so I guess we'll unveil the models here and at FFR in person.

Another thing, I enjoy business chess and with every project there are related longer term goals and related projects. The Mk4 body molds and gel coat work were needed for the Mk4, but also central to our prep for being able to do tight tolerance molds for say 1/4 panels that will be needed on the 818 project. The running gear and the work with the X-prize finalist and Green Grand Prix winning tdi powered GTM set the team and powertrain possibility for a build-it-yourself commuter. More models and the desire for multiple purposes on the 818 chassis is central to the profitability of the platform.

[Silvertop]

I highly doubt you will see any officially sanctioned vote to determine the first/second/third.etc design. You will see many forum polls from the members, but if FFR starts one, it will clearly have disclaimers attatched.

What will happen is that FFR will take as much feedback as they can read/stand (because there is no way they will be able to read it all), and temper that with internal ideas and concerns, and roll that with a healthly dose of what makes the bottom line blacker. Then FFR will make the final call on what, and how the bodies are rolled out.

I think you nailed that exactly.

[unclebigbad]

I say 8-1-8.

[Michael Lye]

I've just gotten a chance to catch up now that the power is back on here where I live in RI.

The edges of Xabier's design are a lot sharper than I thought from looking at the renderings. Still a good looking design, can't wait to see it all.

These photos show the model in an unfinished state and the sharp edges are a result of that. They will be rounded down somewhat - it's just better to do that towards the end rather earlier. It's easier to take material away than it is to add it back.

The rear doesn't appear to have any sort of spoiler or ducktail like Xabier's track version did, too bad

As Dave mentioned the rear is not done (in the photo) and does have the ducktail spoiler as in the renderings. It's there but doesn't show in the photos.

[Michael Lye]

Agreed. Though I don't know if 'cheated' is a good word... the challenge was to design a car concept not to work out every last detail down to the headlights. I can about guarentee that OEM subaru headlamps will not be used... that would be more difficult than most would imagine.

I think you're right that "cheated" wasn't the best choice of words. I did NOT mean that in the sense that Xabier had some how cheated during the competition. I really just meant that he had made the OEM lights "work" in his renderings in a way that gave a clear impression of how he wanted the front end to look. I agree that the challenge wasn't to work out every last detail but to come up with a great concept - which Xabier did, as is clear from the responses on this forum.

The headlights on that model are more than likely just "placeholders" for now.

Basically, you're correct. They are rough ideas of how the lights could be shaped and configured to work with the front end. Right now though they're just tape and can be adjusted, removed, redone as needed. I think you're also right that the OEM lights won't likely be used. Just too different from what is needed there.

[Michael Lye]

Erm, if you look at the front 3/4 of Xabier's drawings you'll also note that they DON'T follow the line of the 'hood'/bonnet/whatever you want to call it, they actually slope less because he was accounting for the fact they were more 'vertical' than the bonnet shape.

Your clay model seems to have them flush with the curve of the bonnet, your design won't work, his should or should be close enough in my opinion.

The front 3/4 rendering does show the lights somewhat more vertical than the surrounding bodywork and there's a small recess at the forward lower edge that emphasizes that. However I've held the OEM light next to the images and the model and can confirm that ot would be very difficult to make them work without major changes to the front end. The clay model has tape headlights in the photo to show the potential for placement and shape but not any of the details of the lights. These headlights would be conceptually similar to the GTM lights and if desired, could be flush mounted and work quite well. But they are by no means the final say on lights.

[Dave Smith]

I am really honored by having Michael and his team do this car that is really the favorite of the FFForum crowd to date. How fortunate we are to bring World Class talent to bear on this project from the crew at RISD, to the talented team of designers and software experts at Solidworks, to the design judges and community submissions, and others to complement our seasoned team... I think you guys will be slack-jawed at the RISD work as well as the other models. The fun thing for me is that the longest part of the project (body shaping) will, after the selection/(s), go super fast as these go to full scale in mere weeks from CAD and surface scanning. We are in the golden age of cars where so much is possible and its only up to us to imagine it as the tools are seemingly doubling in power every year!

Thanks Michael for the great addition to the project!

[Cooluser23]

What's the

Smyth

project if you don't mind me asking? I'm not familiar with it.

[Cooluser23]

Dave, could you invite the

experts at Solidworks

to do a Q/A thread like Michael Lye?
I'm very curious of what Solidworks is capable these days and how it helps shape projects such as the 818. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, and Solidworks would appreciate the chance to showcase their product(s).

[D2W]

I think you're right that "cheated" wasn't the best choice of words. I did NOT mean that in the sense that Xabier had some how cheated during the competition. I really just meant that he had made the OEM lights "work" in his renderings in a way that gave a clear impression of how he wanted the front end to look. I agree that the challenge wasn't to work out every last detail but to come up with a great concept - which Xabier did, as is clear from the responses on this forum.

Michael I apologize if anyone thinks I was quoting you when I said "xabier cheated the subi lights on his model". that was my statement alone and I only meant he didn't use the exact shape of the light on his model. Maybe cheated was the wrong word and I apologize to Xabier too if anyone thought I meant anything else.

P.S. Michael good news on the designs aspects I commented on not being done yet. I can't wait to see the finished model

[D2W]

What's the project if you don't mind me asking? I'm not familiar with it.

Search Smyth performance on facebook. In a nutshell Mark Smith is doing a project of his own seperate from ffr, cutting down a Jetta and making it mid engine. Interesting but totally different from what Dave and FFR are doing.

[D2W]

I second the idea of doing a Q & A with solidworks. I have a few questions already.

[kach22i]

I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max.

I'd like to correct myself, based on the Lotus Eagle drawing I found on the Internet (think this was code name for the Evora), seating position may be able to be moved up a full 6 inches. That's my best guess, and it may not seem like a lot, but to someone designer mindset, it may make your day. This means lots of room behind the seat for a gas tank (as already announced). And it may even account for X's clay car looking cab-forward to me, but that is just a guess.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...rial%20Design/


I've sat in the Evora, and it far easier to get into (and out of) than the Elise, and feels pretty roomy to a short guy like me (5'-5").

As a side note, the 2015 Boxster is reported to be a more cab-forward design, longer and perhaps wider. I mention this, because the FFR template fit the current Boxster, and a used Boxster might be an FFR comparable. Here is a link to a collection of articles on that subject.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...er-rumors.html

[bromikl]

This may be a silly question, but how far forward could the driver go? If ingress/egress weren't an issue, could he sit between the front wheels? Knees over the steering rack? How much of that space is taken by the suspension? The engine is usually between the front wheels, but not in the 818. I'm sure it won't be wasted space (storage) but just out of curiosity what's the extreme limit? And is that limit different for the X-Bow (w/ unique suspension?)

[crackedcornish]

This may be a silly question, but how far forward could the driver go? If ingress/egress weren't an issue, could he sit between the front wheels? Knees over the steering rack? How much of that space is taken by the suspension? The engine is usually between the front wheels, but not in the 818. I'm sure it won't be wasted space (storage) but just out of curiosity what's the extreme limit? And is that limit different for the X-Bow (w/ unique suspension?)

to sit between the front wheels you would have to make it a single seat that was centered in the vehicle...but you can sit above the wheels like in this Jeep FC....

[kach22i]

These were originally posted in the forum by someone else, I forget who. Your guess is as good as mine regarding how far forward the seating position can go, mark it up and see if it flies.
1-F5R 818 top view.jpg1-Frame-818.jpg

I have a magazine I scanned a while back, the Stratos concept car is the "two in between" the wheels car of all time.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ2QQtppZZ20

[ddorrer]

A TDI powered 818 sounds interesting!! Plenty of torque, great MPG. Mmm...very interesting.

[bobzdar]

I think the practical limit is aroumd the front wheel centerline, beyond that and you lose your legs in any kind of frontal impact.

[16g-95gsx]

A TDI powered 818 sounds interesting!! Plenty of torque, great MPG. Mmm...very interesting.

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.

[kach22i]

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.

I agree in a general way.

Please keep in mind that on a highway when the mass is already in motion, aerodynamics has a greater importance over weight. There is only one of the five designs (first place winner as a fastback coupe) that I know of which comes close to being a kamm-back design.

[kach22i]

I think the practical limit is aroumd the front wheel centerline, beyond that and you lose your legs in any kind of frontal impact.

A guy in one of the other forums I post in has a one-legged friend. His friend lost his leg in a VW van accident, Ralph Nader was right about a few things (not all).

[armstrom]

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.

Indeed. I have been following a scratch-built-turned-kit builder for years named Steve Graber. His La Bala prototype is up for sale and I was shocked at the economy he was getting for the performance. 4.2S 0-60, 12.6 in the quarter mile and an average of 50MPG (under normal driving circumstances, of course). Check it out for yourself http://www.grabercars.com/ Standard disclaimer: I'm not in any way trying to advertise this car and have no stake in its success. In fact, I ruled it out for myself years ago
-Matt

[bromikl]

Thanks, kach22i - that's exactly what I was thinking about. Not that I'd want that for the 818, but the Stratospheric Concept has PLENTY of room behind the driver for 2+2 seating. Even with that enormous engine back there. I think the prospect of losing my legs at the slightest front impact isn't worth the ability to carry small people in the back. On the other hand, I take greater risks every time I get on my motorcycle. I guess if you want safety, keep the front-engine unibody car with airbags.

I remember seeing a photo of a 1+2 exo car. Wouldn't that have the front-impact weakness as well? I hear the Smart Car has a surprisingly rigid frame - where injury is more likely from rapid deceleration than from cabin intrusion. Can the frame ever be stiff enough to protect the driver? Something like Formula One cars?

[kach22i]

Something like Formula One cars?

A place about 15 minutes from my house had an Carbon Fiber F1 body (maybe an older Arrow body). I think it was baked in an Autoclave at one time, super hard. The shell was about 5/8" thick with about 20 layers of CF fabric weave in it. I knocked on it (knuckle wrapped), it had a cast iron ring to it, it was just that stiff.

I can imagine if one were not strapped down, you could rattle around inside of it until you turned to Jello.

...................................

Armstrom, I'll add this car to the list of comparable. I've not seen this one before.

[Niburu]

I say 8-1-8.

I've heard it both ways....and there is already a thread
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ciation-of-818

[Silvertop]

Trying to divert our attention and get us arguing about something else? My answer to the pronunciation issue is to simply say "I've heard it both ways". We should get T-shirts that say:

FFR 818
I've heard it both ways

I'll buy one of those! More than one if offered in multiple colors with a pocket............

[Niburu]

I'll buy one of those! More than one if offered in multiple colors with a pocket............

I would soooooo buy that shirt

[16g-95gsx]

Agreed. Drag coefficient being kept equal, the car will pull some incredible fuel economy. My high powered 2.0L was able to pull 32mpg highway when not pushed (600hp at the time), and it's weight was probably around 3000lbs with an awd trans system to boot. 1800lbs, 2wd, and probably a decently aerodynamic body would make the 818 a killer on all accounts, both track AND economy.

I agree in a general way.

Please keep in mind that on a highway when the mass is already in motion, aerodynamics has a greater importance over weight. There is only one of the five designs (first place winner as a fastback coupe) that I know of which comes close to being a kamm-back design.