Project 818 Design Submissions

[bromikl]

If I recall when the design competition began, the gas tank was still under the seats. That would imply the roll bar was higher in the template than it would need to be now. Most of the cars "not fitting the template" offended it in roll bar height.

I assume that since the concept design competition, slight changes were made to the frame before modeling. This way they can accurately model all potential bodies on a frame that will be very close to production dimensions.

[Niburu]

@ Nibiru I think the things you mentioned are what I admire in some of the non picked designs. I wonder do you feel like some of these elements are gimmicky? Like what flyboy sead about the headrest humps.

the cars I liked designwise for this contest were the ones that were realistic builds with smoth flowing lines and curves
I am not a fan of the staight edge design thats been prevelant for the last decade - at all
I saw alot of design features for the sake of design and no other reason
I have nothing against the headrest humps and the looked good on some of the cars, some looked like an afterthought
Some of the oddball design also grew on me as the contest went on, there was quite a bit more originallity than I expected

[kach22i]

I'm curious, is the template that you're using still the original one posted for the contest?

I seem to recall Dave saying that they moved the gas tank behind the seat to make the driver position lower. I'm wondering if that changes the template a little and will allow for a little lower car.

I am using a modified FFR template. I added a 90 Percentile male (6'-0" tall) I found on-line. He barely fits as you can see, leading me to believe that there never was any room under the seat for a gas tank. Some kind of in-house miscommunication I suspect.

[Mad Dog]

36 new images have been uploaded to the gallery. Here's a some of them. I'll try and get some more posted tomorrow.









Click here to view the gallery of design submissions.

[PhyrraM]

These two are of my liking. LIGHT looking, like the 818 itself. NO heavy rump. No wanna-be exotic styling.

One is a bit plain and the other takes a few too many chances, but I like them both.

[kach22i]

Just a few more studies. Trying to figure out what works, or don't works, and why or why not.

[olpro]

Your first overlay in the last post looks close but the guy's WHEELS are about twice a realistic size. I can understand a cheated perspective drawing but a dead side view that is SO far off is just ridiculous.
If I were handling the judging, I would precheck all the side views and TOSS OUT any entry that cheated. They wouldn't even make it to the judge's desk for review. Final selections would be made solely on the (qualified) side views. If this kind of policy was made clear early on, the end results would be usable.
Those of you who compete on the track or course wouldn't stand for cheating - it shouldn't be allowed in this contest either.
As it was, I don't know how they handled this issue so I guess I can't criticize.

[rsmith]

If I were handling the judging, I would precheck all the side views and TOSS OUT any entry that cheated. They wouldn't even make it to the judge's desk for review. Final selections would be made solely on the (qualified) side views. If this kind of policy was made clear early on, the end results would be usable.

Thankfully you weren't involved with the judging.

Those of you who compete on the track or course wouldn't stand for cheating - it shouldn't be allowed in this contest either.

Since it was clearly specified from the beginning that the contest was quite wide open - even to the point of templates being optional - I would say "cheating" doesn't even begin to apply. And to throw that word out there regarding specific entries is really too much.

As it was, I don't know how they handled this issue so I guess I can't criticize.

So what exactly was it you were doing - if not criticizing? I can understand that you're opinionated and [sarcasm] clearly have all the answers [/sarcasm] but it would be helpful if you became a little more informed about the rules of the competition before spouting such negativity. It's clear you don't like the way the contest was organized, run, handled or even the end results. That's fine. Try not to bring everyone else down to your level though.

[olpro]

I don't remember anything about the templates being 'optional'. A lot of entrants treated it that way and the contest management seemed pretty loose on that issue although who knows how the final designs were actually evaluated. For all I know they did eliminate the cheaters. I don't recall any of the money winners being way cheated so probably they did.
There was plenty of discussion on this issue so I'm sure they were smart enough not to be fooled. I wish they would have spelled it out early though, to get the contestants to try harder to make their proposals fit the package, and be more usable.
My criticism extends to some of the entrants' work and not further to the actual judging process. Learn to read. As to bringing everyone "down to my level", that would be considerably higher than yours, apparently.

[GUNS]

Yea I don't really get all these guys upset about the designs not being absolutely perfect to the dimensions. IMO, the design competition was just to basically spark inspiration for this thing, not to be 100% accurate. I don't know, I just don't see it as that big a deal. Maybe for you guys that do this for a living it is, but in the end, who cares?

[olpro]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

[GUNS]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

Yea I agree, but that doesn't mean that they can't take a design that isn't exactly up to specs and tweak it to meet their goals.

[rsmith]

I don't remember anything about the templates being 'optional'. A lot of entrants treated it that way and the contest management seemed pretty loose on that issue although who knows how the final designs were actually evaluated. For all I know they did eliminate the cheaters. I don't recall any of the money winners being way cheated so probably they did.

Actually if you read the rules it does not say anything about the templates being required. And here are a few quotes from Dave back on March 1st:

We might be able to put some landmark add-ons to the templates (bumper heights, rear deck min etc), but for right now the full-on CAD files are not going to be released, it's just simply too early in the work despite the fact that the guys are building the go-kart right now. Also, the body shapes that guys come up with MAY drive changes to the chassis and we dont want to curtail design work that can be adopted. This is a tough chicken-egg thingy...

and

We had wanted to get the mechanics of the site and contest functioning first before doing press releases (probably tomorrow or the next day) on the design contest. One more detail on the chassis, more clear instructions (like submit ANY drawing, you dont have to do three images)...

Templates sound optional to me, even if they did provide useful information. Feel free to disagree though.

There was plenty of discussion on this issue so I'm sure they were smart enough not to be fooled. I wish they would have spelled it out early though, to get the contestants to try harder to make their proposals fit the package, and be more usable.
My criticism extends to some of the entrants' work and not further to the actual judging process. Learn to read. As to bringing everyone "down to my level", that would be considerably higher than yours, apparently.

I read and comprehend quite well. I'm not the one who's grumbling and complaining about "cheaters." I think the contestants did a great job from what I've seen and should be congratulated for their efforts. So you go ahead and continue to be negative while the rest of us appreciate the results from a great contest. Maybe tomorrow you'll feel better.

[rsmith]

Yea I don't really get all these guys upset about the designs not being absolutely perfect to the dimensions. IMO, the design competition was just to basically spark inspiration for this thing, not to be 100% accurate. I don't know, I just don't see it as that big a deal. Maybe for you guys that do this for a living it is, but in the end, who cares?

I think you're right and that Dave has made it very clear throughout the contest that inspiration was more important than perfect accuracy. I don't think he cared if the dimensions might be a little (or more) off, especially if the end result rocked.

[rsmith]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

Your "standards, and expectations" are not what the contest was about. They're also not relevant or applicable. "In the end" it wasn't up to the contestants to produce the "feasible product" and Factory Five seems quite willing to work from the design inspirations to produce the end result they need. See what Dave says below:

BUT what if someone comes up with a rockin cool twin rear duct style body shape. We might want to change the design to use that cool feature/look. I guess the point is that we dont want to constrain creativity. Chassis details (small as opposed to wheelbase, track etc) can be changed where there is a good enough reason. We use CAD and make everything on the screeen first anyway, so sometimes mods are easier than you might think, so the decision to either provide all the details and hurt design freedom was balanced against the value of having final drawings which are the actual, down to the tenth car body... we decided to lean towards more open design paramenters. Hope that explains it.

Plus, the judges we have assembled are from ALL different walks of professional life. Our goal was to pick the most exciting, inspiring, and cool designs... then the hard work is set forth for the engineers to bring that to life...

Maybe I'm just misreading this and Dave really wanted the contestants to limit themselves to production ready concepts and drawings. Nah, Dave just isn't saying that. Perhaps your standards and expectations are just higher than Factory Five's? Perhaps but I'd rather buy their products I think. They don't have the same frustrations and negative energy you keep displaying so openly. So lighten up and try to see the bright side of things for a change. Might even do you good.

[bromikl]

rsmith, thanks for researching that. And you are absolutely correct. There really were very few, if any constraints on the concept completion. Dave encouraged anyone with a pencil and an internet connection to make an entry.

The pros, on the other hand, felt there were rules for acceptable work. While they had a distinct advantage in the contest with well-honed skills, experience and software, they felt the entries that weren't realistic were somehow inferior. But it would be silly to expect professional level work from amateurs. So, kudos to the pros in being able to spot a cheated design, but that's not what the contest was about.

[Imp]

Look what I (they) just found.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/f...mpaign=ongoing

Not the Frankfurt show: Ford GT70
Blue Oval releases pic of 1970s motorsport rarity. As you can see, it’s quite yellow



The story goes like this. Two gentlemen were returning home from the 1970 Monte Carlo Rally. They went by the names of Stuart Turner, Ford competitions director, and Roger Clark, a Ford works rally driver.

These two men of Speedy Things were discussing their failure at the rally, and decided what Ford really needed was a light, simple, mid-engined car with the ability to host a range of engines.

The spawn of this discussion is the cheery little yellow sportscar currently jostling for your attention above. It is the Ford GT70, and that very model is just one of six ever built. Ford drivers Hannu Mikkola and Timo Makinen put forward ideas for the interior, while one of the brains behind the GT40 helped design it.

Sadly, the arrival of the Escort and WRC rule changes made the GT70 redundant. It was put into a big box in 1973 and was only recently unpacked, undergoing a full restoration in 2002, complete with a 2.0-litre BDA engine and Hewland gearbox.

The reason for the pic? Ford is celebrating 100 years in Britain and is sifting through its picture archive. It's also nothing to do with the Frankfurt motor show. Click the link below for a bigger image.

Imagine if this was out last year when FFR was developing the idea for the 818... and it's a Ford. I'd just say "Make it look like that".

--KC

[Oppenheimer]

I'd just say, 'make it look better than that'. That looks great for 1970, but I'd want something a little...more for the 818.

I'm just glad you appear to have successfully changed the topic at hand.

[PhyrraM]

That's very cool. Like a second, much better, attempt at the mid engined Mustang concept from the 60s. I see alot of Lotus in the front, someone Ford was working well with at the time. I wonder what the frame looks like? wouldn't suprise me to see a Lotus inspired backbone under it.

I think it's cars like that Ford, the Dino, Stratos, etc. that Scott Bradfords design pays homage too, but also makes them modern again.

[Mad Dog]

57 new images uploaded today. Really starting to make a dent in getting all of the submissions posted. The gallery now has 202 images in it. Here's some of the new uploads.











Click here to view all of the Project 818 Design Contest entries

[VTX]

These two are of my liking. LIGHT looking, like the 818 itself. NO heavy rump. No wanna-be exotic styling.

One is a bit plain and the other takes a few too many chances, but I like them both.

I agree. These are both nice designs.

[Silvertop]

I think it's cars like that Ford, the Dino, Stratos, etc. that Scott Bradfords design pays homage too, but also makes them modern again.

And the Porsche 904 and several others as well. That's probably what made the Scotty B design so appealing. I'm still a little surprised that one didn't make the Judges top 15 list......

[kach22i]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

I'm with olpro on this one. I think people read far too much into comments made and tossed out the rules. They did so at their own risk, which is fine. However it's kind of frustrating for me to see an interesting design, only to find out that only midgets could drive it.

Think of it this way, I'm clothes shopping and all the pair of pants are mis-marked or not marked at all, and all tossed into a big bin in the middle of the store. There are no mirrors around, no sales people to assist, and no dressing rooms to try the cloths on. This is how the results of the contest are to me. Some interesting clothes in the bin, but at some point I'll just decide to shop elsewhere and save myself the headache.

The template was difficult but not impossible to follow. I just can't imagine what was going through someone's head submitting something which was completely impractical. I can see being off here and there on purpose with things like a different radiator location in mind. Some of the alterations just boggle my mind. And I say this in awe of the hand drawing and computer illustration skills involved. The disconnect just blows my mind. Why waste your own time like that? Is that the the sort of thing you really want in your portfolio? A non-functional design?

I'm old and grumpy, so what.

[D2W]

I'm with olpro on this one. I think people read far too much into comments made and tossed out the rules. They did so at their own risk, which is fine. However it's kind of frustrating for me to see an interesting design, only to find out that only midgets could drive it.

Think of it this way, I'm clothes shopping and all the pair of pants are mis-marked or not marked at all, and all tossed into a big bin in the middle of the store. There are no mirrors around, no sales people to assist, and no dressing rooms to try the cloths on. This is how the results of the contest are to me. Some interesting clothes in the bin, but at some point I'll just decide to shop elsewhere and save myself the headache.

The template was difficult but not impossible to follow. I just can't imagine what was going through someone's head submitting something which was completely impractical. I can see being off here and there on purpose with things like a different radiator location in mind. Some of the alterations just boggle my mind. And I say this in awe of the hand drawing and computer illustration skills involved. The disconnect just blows my mind. Why waste your own time like that? Is that the the sort of thing you really want in your portfolio? A non-functional design?

I'm old and grumpy, so what.

I've got to agree also. I think it was FFR's fault for leaving the contest so wide open, because a design that is too low, with impossibly big tires and other "cheats may look incredible on paper, but will never look as good when actually built with reality in mind. If FFR would have said this is the wheelbase/tire size/minimum passenger compartment size from the beginning they may have gotten more designs that were actually buildable. I don't understand the non-functional disconnect either, maybe the difference between an artist's mind, and an engineer's mind.

[PhyrraM]

The template was only provided at the request of forum posters here and at GRM. It was likely cobbled together at the last second, and begrudgingly, by Jim at Dave's request. It was also released well after the contest was announced. It was very clear from Dave that the template was not required and was completely optional.

Dave was very clear to not constrict yourself in the design. It was the Forums (myself included) that longed for, and lobbied for, something more realistic and buildable.

We can quibble about the what-should-haves and such all we want, but the goal that Dave had in mind was very clear and never in question.

[olpro]

PhyrraM, I don’t want to belabor this side issue but I don’t think that is accurate. When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’.
It was ONLY on this particular little newsgroup about the 818, with its multitude of threads, that Dave’s qualifying comments were to be found. Anybody entering the contest but not joining this complex discussion group would automatically assume the templates were important.
Dave and FFR are very good at many things but this is the first such contest they have held. I think they did pretty well but one thing they didn’t get right is the waffling and confusion about the templates. There may have been statements (but only on this newsgroup) downplaying their importance but none of that ever made it to the rules and entry pages, where interested participants would go to get their information, even shortly before the deadline. Another problem is the fact that the templates were not well done at all and invited creative “interpretation”.

Kach22i, I really like your clothing analogy.

[Oppenheimer]

I am under the impression the design contest was intended to be more of a 'concept car' design competition than a 'design the next FFR kit' competition. I think anyone would agree that they did not do a good enough job at making the intentions clear.

For the clothing analogy, it was a runway model competition. Normal people don't wear those clothes, and they are not very manufacturable, but they have a significant influence on the coming seasons fashions, on the clothes people do make and buy. The extravagent runway also gets a lot more attention than the new wearable fall fashions arriving at Macy's.

Oldpro you are right that someone that didn't pour through the whole history of the board and went just on what was posted about the contest could easily have been misled and think they had to conform to something very buildable, that strictly meet the template, etc. Then be disgruntled when they see some of the winners and lauded designs seem 'cheated'.

You are also correct that this is FFR's first attempt at such a contest. If the Mk I to Mk IV evolution is any indication, they will continually improve if they do something like this again.

[PhyrraM]

True, if you were going just off what was presented on the contest page you would miss the history and developement of the templates and might assume that they were to be adhered to.

However, the "cheated" talk started here in these forums and well before the end of the contest. So most of use here, in these forums, discussing this now, should be well versed in how emphatically Dave said numerious times that he was after design ideas and every submission was to be considered. Dave even restated that exact point when the first few weekly winners were catching heat for not being "buildable".

So, to have a fresh forum member come in here - and wonder why some of the winners are what they are - is understandable. To have a few long standing forum members that are still stuck on this.......?? confused

[olpro]

That Ford GT 70 reminds me of the Monza GT, one of the most elegant designs ever done at GM. It is one of my favorites and to think that this thing was done so long ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvair_Monza_GT

[thebeerbaron]

To have a few long standing forum members that are still stuck on this.......?? confused

Gotta have something to talk about.

Now how about that roof? (I kid, I kid)

[Mad Dog]

Posted some new images into the gallery. Here are a few of them:







Click here to view all of the Project 818 Design Contest entries

[kach22i]

Some more pants that don't quite fit, but are very interesting indeed.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/


The David Story design has potential.



I really like Colin Bonathan's design below.

[kach22i]

On the topic of the Ford GT-70, it's design has aged well, but would have to be updated somehow.

This Russian site is not real accurate, but close enough for this overlay study.

Source:
http://www.the-blueprints.com/bluepr...iew/ford_gt70/

Overlay
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/


It fits pretty well.

There are 3 or 4 versions of the GT-70 floating around the Internet, this is one of them.

Rotated from original image, I had issues trying an overlay but should fit pretty well.

[kach22i]

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/



If anyone who entered the contest with a non-compliant design wants try and to answer the question I have for Edward (and all the others), please do so.

So far I think I've only heard from people who did not submit. If you did not submit, you can contact me via a PM or e-mail.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but don't feel I have a definitive answer from actual participants.

[mekeys]

Kach22i you have one hell of a photobucket album.I like no.41 out of the 788,all tho it needs to have an overlay done too..It's yellow.

Mel Keys

[kach22i]

Kach22i you have one hell of a photobucket album.I like no.41 out of the 788,all tho it needs to have an overlay done too..

Mel Keys

Do you mean the yellow car? I did not draw that, must have liked it for some reason. If you click or right click, the original information should be there.

A-Lotus_concept_by_Morfiuss.jpg

If you mean the black Ferrari in the rain, then yes I think you or someone else in the forum already asked why a more cab-forward (and lower) template was not being offered. I remember the image well, a wire diagram of some sort.

Edit Note: changed cad to cab, as in cab-forward.

[Mad Dog]

More entries have been posted in the gallery. Will try and get even more posted this afternoon. Here's some of the new designs:







Click here to go to the gallery.

[Mad Dog]

Some more submissions have been posted in the gallery. Here's a sample:







Click here to go to the gallery.

[David Hodgkins]

The template was only provided at the request of forum posters here and at GRM. It was likely cobbled together at the last second, and begrudgingly, by Jim at Dave's request. It was also released well after the contest was announced. It was very clear from Dave that the template was not required and was completely optional.

Dave was very clear to not constrict yourself in the design. It was the Forums (myself included) that longed for, and lobbied for, something more realistic and buildable.

We can quibble about the what-should-haves and such all we want, but the goal that Dave had in mind was very clear and never in question.

This is accurate. The template showing a driver, rollbar and engine wasn't part of the original contest rules and was created by request. The original templates only showed wheels (wheelbase and track). Anyone who says otherwise unfortunately is mistaken.

HTH,

[olpro]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’.
It was ONLY on this particular little newsgroup about the 818, with its multitude of threads, that Dave’s qualifying comments were to be found. Anybody entering the contest but not joining this complex discussion group would automatically assume the templates were important.<<<
>>> There may have been statements (but only on this newsgroup) downplaying their importance but none of that ever made it to the rules and entry pages, where interested participants would go to get their information, even shortly before the deadline.<<
In other words, to the VAST majority of people entering this competition, the templates - sketchy as they are - were part of the deal.