Project 818 Design Submissions

[kach22i]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.

Five days before you joined olpro I looked at the contest rules and templates, even asked questions and got answers back. Once again I have to agree with you, did we miss the kool-aid party? Here is what I posted in another forum on 03/09/11.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...out-818-a.html

They answered all of my questions, and it's only been a couple of hours.

1. Yes you can include additional views (front and rear) on extra template sheets.

2. If you have a clay model or fiberglass model you may include photos of it.

3. Be sure to put your contact information on every sheet.

They seem to be very flexible, in the FAQ section they said you could even exclude views (one gesture sketch could win?).

Link:
Factory Five Sportscar Design Contest - Frequently Asked Questions: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

At this point my current theory is; give them an inch and they will take a mile.

However this theory does not address international aspect, maybe it's; give them a centimeter and they will take a kilometer?

I have a second theory about this being a generational thing, a generation thing spanning borders with no concept of limits, reality and which places no value on compliance. However, this would be unfair to all those younger people who took the effort to comply (like Xabier Albizu) and provided an inhabitable/occupiable vehicle.

I know that for myself as a registered architect, one trained in code and ordinance compliance it is difficult for me to throw away experience and the responsibility I have carried for over 30 years in the profession. One thing I'll tell you all, the test for architects has nothing to do with design creativity or aesthetics. The tests have to do with problem solving and compliance, and weighted towards following the rules, if it does not comply, it will not even be considered. That's my world, don't even consider architecture if you cannot follow some rules, lots of rules.

Design is about making decisions, I see that in this contest far too many people made poor decisions in my opinion. I can still admire the talent and creativity, but it saddens me in some fundamental way.

[thebeerbaron]

It's pointless to beat a dead horse, unless that horse is filled with whoopie cushions. If that's the case, have at it!

Glad to see you back olpro!

What I'm seeing in these galleries are a few interesting, distinctive ideas that maybe weren't as fully baked as the winners yet which had a lot more style and punch. Can't wait to see the four 1/4 scale models.

[rsmith]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’.

There is also nothing to indicate which templates were being referred to here. As Dave Hodgkins points out, "The template showing a driver, rollbar and engine wasn't part of the original contest rules and was created by request. The original templates only showed wheels (wheelbase and track). Anyone who says otherwise unfortunately is mistaken."

In other words, to the VAST majority of people entering this competition, the templates - sketchy as they are - were part of the deal.

Which templates were those again? Still you have a point that probably the vast majority of people who entered did eventually become familiar with the rollbar/engine template during the course of the competition. Clearly there is no way anyone is going to convince you that the actual rules (which are listed on the page you cited as Rules 1 through 11) did not require entries to slavishly follow that one particular template so perhaps we should just let this aspect of the thread die. Let's enjoy the submissions instead as Mad Dog posts them. Thanks Mad Dog!

[bromikl]

I think it's great that some people designed with professional eyes; and I think those that did had a much better chance of winning prizes. But those skills were not required for entry into the competition. Some of the concepts look great when "cheated," and I have no doubt they would flop as a real car. But it's up to the ones developing the 818 to pick those out: the pros at FFR.

[Niburu]

they could pick the top 100 designs and have them made into matchbox cars, whole new market segment for FFR

additionally I'd like to see Xabier sign a few body shells of the actual 818
maybe I'll send him a tshirt to sign

[Silvertop]

...............maybe I'll send him a tshirt to sign

Now THERE'S a neat idea.

[kach22i]

I think it's great that some people designed with professional eyes; and I think those that did had a much better chance of winning prizes. But those skills were not required for entry into the competition. Some of the concepts look great when "cheated," and I have no doubt they would flop as a real car. But it's up to the ones developing the 818 to pick those out: the pros at FFR.

RE: winning prizes...........
I proved earlier with template overlays that about half of the winning entries (judge's choice etc...) were "cheated", the other half were only slightly cheated, and nearly all had been posted in the forum prior to the end of the contest. X's was not cheated at all, although a little more head room and higher windshield would have been nice from a roll-over perspective.

I do like the Hot Wheels/Matchbox idea, somebody is thinking fun here (Niburu), and I like that.

thebeerbarron is right, it's a dead horse, but like anyone else I like to get the last word in. Therefore I'll clarify that to the best of my memory (which is not perfect) the templates I first saw on 03/09/11 included the driver and transaxle.

EDIT:
A picture for fun.................

Classic Car Photo Gallery: 1973 Maserati Bora: Engine 2 View
1973 Maserati Bora: Hatch View

[xabier]

Niburu you really made me laugh with your comment! hahaha! It makes me feel really happy and proud to see people likes what I did and that you feel so excited about it, I am very excited too with this project!

[Silvertop]

Niburu you really made me laugh with your comment! hahaha! ..............

Actually, I think he was serious. I was!

[xabier]

Well, in that case, I´m really glad to hear that Silvertop, if I could do something, you know I would love to help if possible!
Thank you very much!

[Mad Dog]

Got some more submissions posted. Had more but having some trouble getting them posted so working on that right now. Should have them posted tomorrow. In the mean time, here's a few of the new additions and click here to view all of them.

[16g-95gsx]

Some of these look great, but to me they lose the entire concept behind the body shape that a mid engined car has. They all look like FR cars.

[kach22i]

J Powell's submission................nice, would love to see a side view of that.

Ivan Ma's submission - View 2...........like it, gotta template it.

Ian Rothwell's submission............clean, simple, I'll template it too.

Hal Mintun's submission - View 2...............the front 3/4 view line drawing has some potential, not the same design as other's with his name.

Goran Bundaleski's submission.................I like his many many many submissions, and no need to template his stuff either. Good job bro.

Jim O'Day's submission................nice hand drawings, I think he should have spent a little more time on the side view though.

Jeremy Rice's submission.................I'm happy to see that he turned it in, I remember it from the forum.

Jeff Teague's submission.................I'd love to see Jeff re-scale this to fit people better, and not limit himself to the 8-foot wheel base (see RUF CTR3). http://www.ruf-automobile.de/en/RUF-CTR-3.29fe7.php

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/

[Niburu]

Actually, I think he was serious. I was!

I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

[Silvertop]

I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

I have a fairly sizable collection of 1/24 scale cars (way cheaper than collecting the real things)-- mostly Franklin Mint, and mostly sports cars and sports sedans from the 50's, 60's & 70's -- and I'd be buying 1/24 scale FFR cars in a heartbeat if they were available............

[Oppenheimer]

I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

Funny, last time I was in BJ's and saw the scale model cars I was thinking how cool it would be if we cuold get some FFR models.

[Drew2.0]

just started this sketch, its just a ruff idea... I wasn't impressed with the design winners so I figured if I'm gonna talk smack I might as well have a concept... please let me know what you guys think!

[Colvindesign]

As to the comments about "cheating"; that is the reality of automotive design. Look at publicly released teaser sketches of prototype or production models, and they are almost always exaggerated with larger than realistic wheels and smaller greenhouse than would be acceptable by any motorist who would drive it.

example: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1...r-Concept.html

To those who are taking offense or upset by it, that's how this field actually works. Sometimes the parameters are established, then the designers comes back and negotiates with the engineers to make compromises after they figure out the car "looks" rear end heavy, top heavy or narrow. Sort of how the gas tank location changed at some point in the contest. However in the industry a design team may work daily on the same project for months. This was a mix of designers working on their own with their own specific feedback in a shorter time frame. For what was accomplished, this contest was a success. Beating the dead horse about "cheaters" or those who chose to exaggerate the characteristics of their designs will not change how things are done.

I do have a suggestion for future contests, allow more time and encourage teams to develop. Designs often come out better when done as a collaboration of efforts.

[kach22i]

I went to what I think is your Facebook page Colvindesign, you have a lot of talent, nice work. However, we have already had an expert explain the proper and professional process. The gas tank issue is just another example of the inexperience of the person who generated the template (a 95 percentile American Male figure would never work with anything more than a seat under it), I once called it an "in office miscommunication" to be kind.

Do you have a website Colvindesign? There seems to be a NYC architect using the same name which makes finding your work that much more difficult.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/pic/1...Concept_6.html
Pontiac-Solstice-Roadster-Concept_6.jpg
© 2011 General Motors

I can see Colvindesign's point when I see the image above. I'm pretty sure this sort of concept is not just thrown over the wall to the engineering department to make work. Not after they went through the effort of setting up a template with design parameters.

[Colvindesign]

I'm not a pro. However being someone who has read numerous books by people currently in the industry, and knowing what internal sketches look like, a pro from 30 years ago VS a pro from today, are two entirely different things. No offense to anyone in particular, it's just how things actually are these days. The styles used in the past were more focused on the body, with small wheels (which were more realistic), tall greenhouses and thin looking bodies. Today, the pros who work in the industry today, use two methods, underlays of current vehicles which may be up for redesign or a complete free hand sketch with no boundaries. The above sketch was a teaser from general motors and was used during the design development phase of the Solstice as an "Approved" design. Granted it does not fit the Solstice design almost at all technically, you can still tell unmistakably that it is in fact a Solstice. This is where the disconnect is here on the Forum. While designers use these type of sketches to fine tune their "ideas" or design language, the actual process takes weeks or sometimes months to morph from a stack of ideas (from numerous designers) into more ideation sketches and eventually into several realistically proportioned designs. So in essence anyone who asks for a realistic production ready design in a matter of weeks from amateur designers (including myself) are expecting too much. Also, many of the entrants are full time students or work full time and do not have the time to dedicate to this 100%. The design for the next Mustang began before the 2010 redesign was released. It's not done yet.

I think everyone harping on the "it doesn't fit the template" theme should sit back and enjoy the fact that Dave Smith and company has given the public the opportunity to influence and perhaps completely design the next product from factory Five. I've enjoyed the contest and appreciate my work being shared. I am defensive about criticism that is based on unfounded presumptions that a design proposal needs to be 100% production ready. Kachi, architecture is a completely different animal. However, even the most interesting and inspiring architectural "designs" challenge reality;
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb...0-FB919E6E.jpg

[David Hodgkins]

Great post.

[kach22i]

time...........

100% production ready..........

I've enjoyed the contest..............

I guess time is relative, some people submitted 17 designs, others could not finish one up. It's like that at school, people fail all the time. It's like that at work, they get themselves fired.

I don't think the templates mandated a 100% production ready car, but their were a set of rules.

I enjoyed the contest too.

[Colvindesign]

I guess time is relative, some people submitted 17 designs, others could not finish one up. It's like that at school, people fail all the time. It's like that at work, they get themselves fired.

Well, I've never been fired. I found time to do a few sketches, but still managed to work more than 40 hours a week, take care of my disabled wife and my 5 year old. I guess that means I am a failure because I didn't churn out 30 sketches worth submitting? It was a contest where payment was only guaranteed to the winner. Had I been commissioned and paid to design a car for FFR, I would have devoted more than 50 hours to it a week, and I would have been able to offer up far more than 30 different design ideas had that been the case. But I had to deal with reality and had to find time to do this.

I don't think the templates mandated a 100% production ready car, but their were a set of rules.

Which is why the argument is completely moot. There were flaws with the original template. Had the designers stuck entirely to the template to a "T", then everyone would have had the driver sitting on top of the gas tank, and how many people in the real world would not buy the car for that very reason? I know I wouldn't. Some people (like myself) saw a problem with the template, and chose to change it by moving the gas tank before FFR did. I also challenged the idea that the transmission needed to be so long because the rear drive portion could be removed without affecting the performance of the FWD portion that would drive the wheels on the 818, and would actually lighten the vehicle with it's removal. Sometimes it's better to work WITH the designer rather than keeping the two completely separated. If engineers never had feedback from designers, no one would want to be a designer. Had the designers not consistently pushed back on the gas tank location, it would not have changed. I think the change was good. While yes 30 inch wheels and a three inch tall windshield are unrealistic and would never reach production, an inch off the rear or an inch there can make or break a design.

I enjoyed the contest too.

Good, I'm glad to hear it. But take a step back and understand these are two very different disciplines. You are applying Architectural expectations to automotive design. Which is not a bad thing because it gives you a unique perspective, however that does not make others wrong because they do not share your view.

[Colvindesign]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well.

[thebeerbaron]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well.

My entry isn't up yet. It's a lot of work for Mad Dog to get these things up, and he's got a lot of other work to do besides. I've tried to help, but without access to the source materials I had trouble trying to automate the process. We're just going to have to be patient as the rest trickle in...

[olpro]

>>>> Good, I'm glad to hear it. But take a step back and understand these are two very different disciplines. You are applying Architectural expectations to automotive design. Which is not a bad thing because it gives you a unique perspective, however that does not make others wrong because they do not share your view.

I would say that kach22i’s ideas and standards are far closer to the actual automotive studio experiences and criteria I have experienced, as recently as 2006 when I retired.
You can read all you want about something but that is not the same as actually being there.

I am sure that Mad Dog is doing all he can with all the diverse file sizes, etc. - it will eventually get done. I am enjoying seeing them as they are posted.

[PhyrraM]

...I am sure that Mad Dog is doing all he can with all the diverse file sizes, etc. - it will eventually get done. I am enjoying seeing them as they are posted.

I agree. Taking the time to look at more than 50 or so at a time would consume my day if they were released any faster.

[kach22i]

There were flaws with the original template. Had the designers stuck entirely to the template to a "T", then everyone would have had the driver sitting on top of the gas tank, and how many people in the real world would not buy the car for that very reason? I know I wouldn't. Some people (like myself) saw a problem with the template, and chose to change it by moving the gas tank before FFR did. I also challenged the idea that the transmission needed to be so long because the rear drive portion could be removed without affecting the performance of the FWD portion that would drive the wheels on the 818, and would actually lighten the vehicle with it's removal. Sometimes it's better to work WITH the designer rather than keeping the two completely separated.

1. Tranny
I'm glad you clarified your thoughts and position on the transmission. I followed the template in good faith, however looking at the "go-cart" you can see that rear overhand allowance was generous, even without the modification you speak of. In fact, looking at the full sized body they are working on, the rear overhang appears to be much less than they asked us to provide.

2. Gas Tank and human figure
FFR must have used a 30% Female figure or something other than a 95 Percentile American Male mannequin figure to obtain the template placing. There was in fact never room for a gas tank under the seat, and no room for seat track adjustment rails either. This faulty template confuses people to this day, despite me posting a corrected template dozens of times. Even in the corrected template you can see that the eye level will have to be raised (and arse level). This has been proven beyond reasonable doubt with the David H. (aka the wookie) 4" underside of seat photos.

My faith in FFR's ability to deal with basic ergonomics has been a wait and see thing. It's always right the second time around as they say.

Given time I'm sure they can make it right, but time and money are always a problem for any venture, right?

[Mad Dog]

Hi guys,

I have about 25 or so more photos to post, but keep getting an error message every time I upload them. However, it doesn't tell me what is wrong exactly...same file type and size as all the other photos posted. So, trying to figure that out.

I appreciate any one that has offered to help. Going through and editing is going well and there are close to 300 images posted right now. Going in alphabetical order at this point as an easy way to remember where I left off. Will try to get some more posted today or tomorrow. If you're anxious to see your design posted or if I missed one that one perspective you really like, please PM me.

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, email sent...

[Mad Dog]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well.

Just got more of your entries posted. Sorry for only getting a few up earlier. Was trying to get as many people's entries posted as quickly as possible. Hoping to get more posted this afternoon.

[kach22i]

Cool, some more nice stuff in there. Did some overlays to see what was really going on with some of my favorites.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/



I would actually fit in this car at 5'-4.5" tall, so would most women.

[VTX]

Cool, some more nice stuff in there. Did some overlays to see what was really going on with some of my favorites.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/

I like that one too.

[Drew2.0]

yea I like that!
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/
the lines are nice...

[Drew2.0]

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!

[kach22i]

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!

Do you have a view with a template overlay?

Please don't break my heart, it's beautiful. More masculine than pretty though.

[Justen]

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!

Very lambo-ish. i like the hard lines and forward cab

[crackedcornish]

kach22i, just out of curiosity, have you put your overlay on any pics of the actual chassis yet??

[kach22i]

I did my best to give this design the template treatment and a full windshield, not bad but a pretty big loss of character in the process.

Drew2.0, if you have a street version please post it, I'm sure that I did not do your design justice.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/

[kach22i]

kach22i, just out of curiosity, have you put your overlay on any pics of the actual chassis yet??

I'm no ergonomic's engineer but that sounds like a good idea.

You will have to adjust for perspective (see red cross-hair NTS) and follow the white dashed lines. In general it fits, however as pointed out before the rear overhang is about 5 inches too generous (just a guess, not based on an actual measurement). Also the seat height needs to be raised to get adjustable slide rails in there. Track versions may bolt a seat right to the floor or floor structure.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/