Brandon's 818R Build

[roadrashrob]

For the outer nuts on the upper control arm, Page 104 in the manual has footnotes with hand symbols which advise on the endplay and bolt threads you need.

I didn't have much trouble getting them on, so you may want to just clean the threads a bit. As they are lock nuts, I don't see a real issue with them being "snug" to tighten.

[roadrashrob]

Can someone show a picture of the left or right race dead pedal? I think mine are missing because there are not panels where I thought the dead pedals go inside the frame.
Attachment 152371

The dead pedal sheet metal should be in with the "packaged aluminum". Did you inventory every piece?

[blomb11]

The dead pedal sheet metal should be in with the "packaged aluminum". Did you inventory every piece?

Yes I have the dead pedals in the package aluminum box, but on my mounted sheet for the 818R I have a left and right "race" dead pedal. So I am trying to see if they are the same or different. I have a lot of S components that I won't be using since I am building an R. I would have thought FFR would have cleaned up the BOMs a bit more to save parts and cost...

[J R Jones]

Brandon,
Your second photo shows the UCA on top of the mount tabs. Just in case... it should be between the upper and lower tabs.
BTW stuff on the threads could be previous thread locking compound, maybe a pre-apply. I would clean the threads and use Loctite.
FWIW I find the R & L box sections at the corners of my "S" footwells too big to be effective dead pedals.

[blomb11]

Your second photo shows the UCA on top of the mount tabs. Just in case... it should be between the upper and lower tabs.
FWIW I find the R & L box sections at the corners of my "S" footwells too big to be effective dead pedals.

Yes, but the R mounts the UCA on top of the tabs and uses a spacer or washer stack to fill the tabs. Then you need to use longer grade 8 bolts for the new required length.

[blomb11]

I added some grease to the UCA fittings as stated and then tightened the end nuts with the UCA attached to the frame. I was able to seat the nuts, but I am still surprised at the friction build up. Both the nut and socket were quite warm by the time I got it tight. Not sure if it is overstay from paint or a coating for thread-locking.

[blomb11]

What is the recommended rear firewall sheetmetal thickness? Does it need to be 0.125”?

[blomb11]

For other R builders, did you install the left/right interior aluminum panels or just use the side intrusion panels? The ones I have are clearly for the S, but maybe I will just trim them along the frame to make them fit better.
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[Hobby Racer]

For other R builders, did you install the left/right interior aluminum panels or just use the side intrusion panels?

As I said in my PM reply, I did not install them. I think it looks better if you just cover and use the intrusion panels that come with the R kit.

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[Santiago]

For other R builders, did you install the left/right interior aluminum panels or just use the side intrusion panels? The ones I have are clearly for the S, but maybe I will just trim them along the frame to make them fit better.
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Just added weight.

On the rear firewall question, were you asking about an engine-side firewall or the cabin-side? I don't know of anyone who has not used the FFR supplied cabin-side wall. And unless FFR has seen fit to include one in recent kits, seems most folks are going with .125" thick aluminum (pref. 6060 or 7075) to make their own engine-side wall.

Best,
-j

[blomb11]

On the rear firewall question, were you asking about an engine-side firewall or the cabin-side? I don't know of anyone who has not used the FFR supplied cabin-side wall. And unless FFR has seen fit to include one in recent kits, seems most folks are going with .125" thick aluminum (pref. 6060 or 7075) to make their own engine-side wall.

Best,
-j

Thanks for your input too...more scrap metal for brackets or something. Yes, I was referring to the engine side rear firewall. I went ahead with 0.080 6061-T6 sheet and have been fitting that up this week. I definitely plan to use the firewall wall over the fuel tank.

[jforand]

For other R builders, did you install the left/right interior aluminum panels or just use the side intrusion panels? The ones I have are clearly for the S, but maybe I will just trim them along the frame to make them fit better.
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I did not have those in my kit so I made mine. I did not like the idea of the big gaps between the exterior intrusion panels and the interior FFR firewall. Not sure if yours close those side gaps or not. I figured if there was an issue I wanted all the splashing and spillage to be contained behind the fire wall. Yes, there are penetrations in the wall, but they are in less critical areas in my opinion. In the middle and/or higher up. The ends is where the sloshing and such will go. It certainly isn’t liquid tight, but I feel better. I thought about some sealant, but have not gotten to the point where I am confident it isn’t coming back out for a while. If you look close, the top isn’t bolted currently as I have no engine in the car!

Had one leak from the crappy gaskets that came with the level sensor and fuel pump parts. Chunk those and get proper o rings! This would have been a different answer for me if I was not using the stock FFR tank.

I also threw a rear, engine side (but inside the cockpit) fire wall. I determined it was super easy to slide a sheet down along the back wall just behind the tank. you can also see that at the top of the pic. the sheet metal is sandwiched between the chassis and the FFR fire wall when all bolted up. Tank holds the bottom nicely. No need to pull the engine (which was in at the time) to do it and/or go around suspension mounts or the like. I was getting way to much trash thrown up on top of the tank and into the wiring for my liking.

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[blomb11]

I have been drilling holes for days in the right side of the front firewall, side intrusion panels, and the rear engine-side firewall. I am on my 3rd drill bit and already running low on the 1/8" rivets so I will have to get more eventually. I am still up in the air if I want to make my own internal side pieces like Justin shows in his last picture or eliminate them like others have done.

I finished the rear engine-side firewall in 3 pieces and added a layer of Thermo-Tec aluminum heat shield and quickly noticed my lines were a bit off, but it still looks pretty good. I will seal the lower 2 panels with some silicone on the cockpit side. I have the rear suspension hung and have started on the front. I can only work on the front right since I am still waiting for the special sheetmetal pieces for the Wilwood pedals. I am a bit confused the R instructions doesn't specify what type of bolt is used on the rear bushing on the front LCA. Is this supposed to be a 1/2" or 5/8" bolt? The washer stack it says to use are 5/8, but in the pictures it looks like a 1/2" bolt. The holes in the frame tabs are ~0.58" so it does not seem like a 5/8" bolt is supposed to go there, but I want to ask to make sure. I have it mocked up right now with 1/2" bolts from the supplied hardware, but they seem too long so I might buy a shorter bolt if it is supposed to be 1/2.

I also had to switch the rear bushings on the front LCAs to make sure they aligned with the frame left/right tabs. This meant I had to undo the 184 ft-lb nuts. Now that the front firewall is in there I need to retorque this nut before I install the LCA. Do these rubber bushing need any grease (small amount of lithium/chassis grease)? The FSM does not say to add any, but they seemed really tight when they were torqued because I could not move them. Just curious if it would help or if that is a no no.

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[Sgt.Gator]

I am a bit confused the R instructions doesn't specify what type of bolt is used on the rear bushing on the front LCA. Is this supposed to be a 1/2" or 5/8" bolt? The washer stack it says to use are 5/8, but in the pictures it looks like a 1/2" bolt. The holes in the frame tabs are ~0.58" so it does not seem like a 5/8" bolt is supposed to go there, but I want to ask to make sure. I have it mocked up right now with 1/2" bolts from the supplied hardware, but they seem too long so I might buy a shorter bolt if it is supposed to be 1/2.

Believe it or not it's Metric for the OEM size donor bolt!

IMHO switch all the crappy FF supplied bolts for AN bolts and OEM suspension bolts.

See my build thread starting at Post #344.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post458587

[blomb11]

I remember reading your post about the fasteners when you went through your suspension. That is why I bought my own fasteners for my rear and some of the front suspension to get the proper grip lengths. I have been pretty disappointed with the FFR fasteners and would have thought a little more engineering went into the grip lengths. Not to mention none of them are marked so I am measuring out each one to figure what size and length they are. I am so used to using metric on my previous Subarus it’s kind of thrown me for a loop on this build so far. Fastener costs can add up quick I wish I had a bigger budget to use all AN fasteners or switch to all metric. I will upgrade where it makes sense.

[blomb11]

Continuing to jump around as I wait for my missing parts to arrive. I did the cylinder 4 cooling mod, installed the Wilwood pedal box, and mocked up the steering column. Looks more like a car now with the steering in. I found I am missing the Wilwood pedals somehow so FFR is looking to send me some possibly directly from Wilwood.
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I started mocking up the fuel tank so I can cut out the fuel filler hole in my rear firewall. I noticed the fuel pump and sender seem to overlap a bit, but then I reread what Hobby did with the hydramat so I will make similar mods to make it all fit. I am going to run a DW300 or AEM340 fuel pump for E85.
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Next up is assembling the trans to the engine now that my clutch and flywheel are showing up this week. Then I can drop her in and start working on fabricating the lowered trans mount.

[J R Jones]

My 2002 donor oil pan bottom is 1.2 inches below the frame. I am considering raising the engine vs dropping the transaxle.
Eventually I will repower and that will not expose the pan in this manner.
jim

[blomb11]

It has been a busy month with the birth of my son so time working on the kit has taken a pause for a while. I was able to sneak in a few hours here and there while I was home on leave. I was able to install an Xclutch lightened flywheel, McLeod Racing clutch, and mate the 6sp transmission to the engine. I spent a lot of time trying to align the clutch disc so be able to seat the trans. I am not sure how people do this when everything is still in the car when I struggled with everything exposed. I am going to blame it on being a newbie since this was the first time installing a clutch and mating a trans.

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My next challenge (free time permitting) is to drop the drivetrain into the chassis and begin to mock up the trans mount. I have seen how critical it is to restore the trans angle closer to the OEM -7 deg. I have looked at Gator's thread a lot and will aim to get 3-3.5" drop resulting is -1 to -2 pitch down if possible. My question is does the trans mount need to be isolated? Or can it be hard mounted? I think there needs to be some bushings in there so wondering if I should try and use a Group N trans mount or fab something similar to Hobby. I will also check to see how the OEM oil pan sits and mock up the headers to see if there will be any clearance issues to the lower frame.

Gator (assuming you see this) did you use the original trans mount with the urethane bushing? Do you have a rubber or fixed mount?
Gator lowered trans.PNG

[lance corsi]

Let’s go Brandon!

[blomb11]

I had a productive 1.5 hrs while the kids thankfully napped and my wife escaped to Target. I got the drivetrain in the chassis for the first time! I did it alone with the hoist and it was not too bad just had to take my time. I repurposed some old pool noodles to try and help protect the frame from being scratched. As others have mentioned I did notice the oil pan and oil filter hang low below the frame. I do have an oil filter sandwich plate so this does make it a little worse. Also the 6sp trans oil pan hits the frame in the rear. I was planning on modding the frame to lower the rear of the trans to address the trans oiling concerns. I have learned the pre '08 6spd use forced lubrication so they do not suffer from the overheating issue as does the 5spd. So with this it seems better to raise the engine rather than lower the trans to address these issues.

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I made sure my frame was level first and then took a measurement at the tail of the trans to see my nominal tail angle. With no adjustment the nominal trans tail is ~5* up. I raised the engine and placed 2x4 blocks under the engine mounts to see what a 1.5" increase would do. This brings the trans tails to 0*-0.5* down while moving the engine oil pan/filter above the frame and also giving some clearance to the trans oil pan (~0.125").

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My initial thought to raising the engine would be to add spacers between the block and the engine mounts. I am thinking 1.5" aluminum spacers at each bolt 2x per engine mount so 4 spacers total. I would need increase the length of the bolts given the spacer length and use a higher grade bolt. Since this is a clamped load (engine mount to block) I think adding a metal spacer would be okay from a structural/vibration standpoint. I welcome feedback on this approach if I am mistaken.

Then once I have these made and installed I can work on creating the trans mount. I like the way Hobby created his 6spd mount so I may leverage a similar design.

[Hobby Racer]

To clarify, are you going to modify the frame under the trans pump to allow it to sit down further? If not you will need to raise the trans mount as well as the engine mounts.

IMHO you should make the frame mods to sink the trans down so it does not require spacers. This will in turn minimize the spacers needed under the motor mounts as well.

[blomb11]

To clarify, are you going to modify the frame under the trans pump to allow it to sit down further? If not you will need to raise the trans mount as well as the engine mounts.

IMHO you should make the frame mods to sink the trans down so it does not require spacers. This will in turn minimize the spacers needed under the motor mounts as well.

You mentioned to me to raise the motor and try to not modify the frame under the trans to keep the rigidity and not mess with having to cut into the diffuser. I would still need to modify the trans mount (make it shorter) and add tabs to the X plate at the rear of the frame similarly to what you did with your 6spd. Is this not the case now?

[Hobby Racer]

You mentioned to me to raise the motor and try to not modify the frame under the trans to keep the rigidity and not mess with having to cut into the diffuser. I would still need to modify the trans mount (make it shorter) and add tabs to the X plate at the rear of the frame similarly to what you did with your 6spd. Is this not the case now?

I thought you were talking about modifying the frame to allow the trans to sit below the frame, protruding into the diffusor are like Gator has done. What I and others have done is modify the frame to allow the sump to not rest on the "X" brace section see the pics in my thread here to see how my "X" section looks different than the stock version. Other have done different mods that accomplish the same thing.

You can modify the frame in the rear "X" section to allow the pump sump to fit down into the frame WITHOUT cutting into the diffuser. I believe everyone that has installed a 6 speed has done some form of this modification and it is what I would recommend.

Sorry if I confused you earlier

[lance corsi]

I cut off the factory mounts and made a pair 1.25” taller then welded them in place. Group n trans mount didn’t need modifications but I’m running a 5 sp. the taller motor mounts gave space below to incorporate my solid shifter linkage.

[blomb11]

I thought you were talking about modifying the frame to allow the trans to sit below the frame, protruding into the diffusor are like Gator has done. What I and others have done is modify the frame to allow the sump to not rest on the "X" brace section see the pics in my thread here to see how my "X" section looks different than the stock version. Other have done different mods that accomplish the same thing.

You can modify the frame in the rear "X" section to allow the pump sump to fit down into the frame WITHOUT cutting into the diffuser. I believe everyone that has installed a 6 speed has done some form of this modification and it is what I would recommend.

Sorry if I confused you earlier

Ah okay I see what you mean now. Yes at first it was to have it sit down in the diffuser. I forgot about the earlier posts you referenced. I have some clearance now if the motor is raised 1.25” but it’s not much. I get what you mean about cutting the X out. I still need to raise the motor in the front.

I cut off the factory mounts and made a pair 1.25” taller then welded them in place. Group n trans mount didn’t need modifications but I’m running a 5 sp. the taller motor mounts gave space below to incorporate my solid shifter linkage.

This would be the cleanest method. I would need to figure out how to bend steel at home. I would think cutting and welding in flat pieces would not be the best or strongest approach.

[J R Jones]

A press brake is appropriate. I made a basic PB with (2) bars welded to a base and a 1" square welded to a gusseted stem. My 12 ton press pushes it.
jim

[blomb11]

Front suspension complete and torqued. I had my first set back and didn’t (forgot) to line up the cotter pin holes on the upper ball joints. I had to buy an 18” wrench and borrow a ball joint tool, but got them lined up and installed.
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I cut out the X in the rear and braced it to accept the 6sp transmission. I forgot to take a pic before o reinstalled the drivetrain, but I will get a better pic. I still have to make the trans mount and paint the bare metal. I did notice though that the transmission mount is not in the middle the frame. There is some slop in the motor mounting slots in the frame. I am push it towards the center a bit, but it is still off by 0.5-1”. I am not sure if this is a concern or not. Once I take the slop out it then begins to load the motor mounts so I don’t think it would be good to push it any further towards the center. I am trying to think if this will affect the balance or handling of the car. Really hoping I don’t need to worry about it too much and mod the frame further.
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[blomb11]

I cut out the X in the rear of the frame and reinforced it as others have done to clear the 6sp. This was my first real fabrication work so it took some extra time to measure, cut, grind, and make it fit. I definitely did not account for the change in angles in some of my measurements so I had to bridge some small gaps using the welder. I am still learning welding as well so they are not the prettiest of welds, but they seem strong. A nice coat of white enamel paint covers most of the imperfections pretty well.
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Once the frame was braced I moved onto making the lowered trans mount. I leveraged what Hobby had done to cut the mount and weld on 2 poly bushings. It took awhile to get the measurements right and the trans to sit on the tubes as I had them mocked up. Lots of grinding the on the trans mount for what seemed like little gain. You can see the 4 tabs I welded on in the previous pic to secure the mount to the frame. The other hard part was having some clearance to be able to install and remove the 4 bolts that attach the trans mount to the transmission housing. I went back and forth to see if there was a way to make the rear tabs removable to make it easier to service, but there was not enough clearance with how close the transmission tail is to the frame now. With this mount I am able to get the transmission tail to be -2 deg so a good improvement from the initial +5 deg up. To get this slope I did raise the front under the engine mounts by 1.5" using aluminum spacers I machined. I will try this first since it was pretty easy to make and if something happens I can look into making new mounts all together.
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With that the driveline is finally installed permanently! I learned the hard way when building the axles FFR only mates to OEM CVs. The front donor axles I had were aftermarket so I had to head down to my local Subaru wrecker and get 2 parts axles to salvage the correct tri-lobe gears. I have the axles built up and ready to install once I get the correct rear inner bearing seal 1A Auto sends me. This is their 3rd attempt to send me the right one.

Next up is to complete the fuel tank install and test fit the seat I just ordered to see how I can clear the broomstick test.

[Hobby Racer]

Nice job so far!

I went back and forth to see if there was a way to make the rear tabs removable to make it easier to service, but there was not enough clearance with how close the transmission tail is to the frame now.

I ended doing exactly that. I take my engine / trans out so often that I changed the rear mounting tabs so they are bolt-in.

[blomb11]

Nice job so far!



I ended doing exactly that. I take my engine / trans out so often that I changed the rear mounting tabs so they are bolt-in.

I do remember seeing that in your thread. Hopefully I won’t have to but that can be a problem to solve later.

[blomb11]

I have seen a few people talk about compressing the steering column a couple inches. Is that as simple as tapping on the 2 column sleeves to get the desired length? Do you also have increase the slot lengths where the column bolts to the frame?

I am already at the ends of the slots so I do t see how it would compress without some other adjustment.

[Ajzride]

Compression how to here:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post150494


I have 3D printable bracket to allow further compression by dropping and extending slots.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post401432

[blomb11]

Compression how to here:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post150494


I have 3D printable bracket to allow further compression by dropping and extending slots.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post401432

Awesome thank you very much!

[blomb11]

I began looking at my seating position to try and see how I can pass the broomstick test. In my planning I thought I would be able to cut out the X bracing and lower the seat bottom to the bottom of the frame but this does not give me enough leg room to the pedals. I have cut down the Wilwood master cylinder rods by 0.5" which helped, but I may need to cut them down further. I have way more than 5" of pedal travel so I think there is more room to reduce these down and give more leg room. Plus the brake is a good 2-3" above the accelerator pedal so this would not be ideal. To be the most comfortable and provide adequate leg room the seat needs to be pushed back up again the interior firewall. This put the bottom of the seat over the front cross bar that is right in front of the fuel tank. It does not seem like a good idea to modify this cross bar or would be quite a challenge to modify and rebrace the frame. I think the best bet is to utilize a small hoop over the driver's side like FFR did with their 818R as seen in the pic below. This will disrupt the aero to the rear wing a little, but I am not sure if it would be enough to consider adding a full bar across the top. A full bar across the top could then be turned into a fairing to try and help with the airflow, but seems like a lot of work. The first picture is with the seat moved forward over the X brace with a 15 degree tilt back but does not provide enough leg room. The second picture is the seat pushed back up against the interior firewall with a 10 degree tilt back. From the quick measurements it looks like I need at least a 2" bump over the driver's side to be able to pass the test.
Seating Position-15 deg tilt back & FWD.JPG Seating Position-10 deg tilt back & moved back.JPG 818R Additional Hoop.JPG

As I was trying to complete the rear suspension I noticed there was a slight hiccup with raising my engine 1.5". The rear shock tower brace does not fit because it is hitting the top of the clutch fork and the rear of the V37 turbo. So I am in the process of notching the cross bar to be able to clear both of these interferences. I am going to try and add a flat plate over the notches to try and bring back the original stiffness for any bending moments. I am a little nervous about any torsional loads, but it seems like most would be in bending and not so much torsion.

[dpalm]

The FFR mini-hoop on top of the rollbar made me wonder whether anyone has tried welding a short hoop over the front cross bar (forward of the steering wheel) to address the broomstick-test conundrum. With the clear plastic wind deflector in place, this would not change the aerodynamics.

[blomb11]

I am going to install the S windshield because I want to register it to be able to drive it on the street as well. I have been thinking about what it would take to reinforce the windshield which would essentially accomplish what you mentioned. A quick look at my PowerPoint picture measurements and it would take 4-6" in the front for me to pass. So if a bar is added to go around the frame of the windshield this would pass this pretty easily.

[Sgt.Gator]

blomb11 and dpalm I explored both of those options before going with the full halo.
The bump over the driver side is very similar to what SRFs added years ago as standard to make the Spec Racer Ford fit taller drivers. Note how all SRFs now have a grafted on top hoop extension.



I tried to use this style mod to make my Palatov legal in SCCA and ICSCC. The SCCA regional tech inspector denied it. Adding a loop to the main hoop was not allowed. Since the SCCA denied it the ICSCC also denied it. The only way to make it legal was to put together all the documents showing FEA analysis and crash worthiness testing to pass an SCCA Homologation review at their HQ.
(Note: SCCA OWNS SCCA Enterprises who are the only people who can make SRFs).

Would NASA allow it? I don't know, there is no NASA in my region. Will a track operator and most HPDE operators allow it, almost certainly yes.

The bump over the steering wheel/dash is also not legal in SCCA if it is on the front hoop.
Here's some SCCA rules:
The main hoop must be high enough that a straight line drawn from the top of the main hoop to the top of the front hoop would pass over the driver’s helmet and steering wheel when the driver is seated in the normal driving position. Additionally, the top of the main hoop must be at least 2 inches above the driver’s helmet as illustrated in figure 10. ( My Note: This does NOT mean the broomstick line has to be 2" above the driver's helmet, just the main hoop has to be 2" above. But the broomstick line can't touch the helmet.)

FRONT HOOP
1. FRONT HOOP
1. Roll cages may be of two designs, low front hoop or high front hoop. All closed top cars and cars that retain the windshield frame must have a high front hoop design.Open cars may incorporate a high or low front hoop design.
b. Open cars
The height of the front hoop (per section 9.4.B.1.b) must be consistent across the full width of the cockpit.

All this is why I went full halo. Even with the full halo I was almost black flagged last year at a race because we did some work that required removing the driver seat and when we put it back we used one slot further up in the back tilt of the side rails. That caused my hemet to be just above the halo by a tiny bit. The corner workers noticed and called it in. The stewards chose to let the race finish, then came to my paddock and admonished me.

Retro Racings 818R is a no go for me. All 3 of their drivers pass the broomstick test but I don't in their car.

[blomb11]

Thanks for all of the good information! I definitely used your post in the Broomstick thread about the SCCA rules to better understand the requirements. Definitely more food for thought. While I do not plan to race in SCCA or NASA, rather local HPDE or possibly some GTA, I do want to be safe. I will mount the seat so it sits on the floor to be as low as possible and then once I have the windshield installed see what will work best. I want to explore what it would take to install a hoop around the windshield frame to see if that would work. Rather than drawings lines in PPT I should tie a string around the forward and aft hoops to get the real broomstick plane to see how far off I am.

[blomb11]

I was able to modify the shock tower brace to clear the clutch fork and the VF37 turbo housing. I was quite nervous to cut into this since I only have one and did not want to have to recreate it. In order to make enough clearance I had to cut basically through the square tube so I went ahead and added a bar on top to try and regain most of the original strength. Welding and metal fabricating really is an art to make it look good. You can see some of my cuts are not super great using my angle grinder, but it got the job done.
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I tried to install the rear coilovers and noticed a problem with the spring contacting the upper lateral link. I am using the top hole for the R ride height which seems to be the culprit because the lower S ride height hole there is some clearance. I used the spacers mentioned in the manual 0.32" and 0.43" even though the ones I got are actually 0.39". I will have to make new ones to get to the correct 0.43" requirement to take out the slop at the top of the coilover. I think I am using the correct spacers on the upper lateral link as well. I am not sure what is the causing the binding, but I did not try raising the assembly up towards full compression to see if there ends up being space between the spring and the upper link. Am I doing something wrong here?

In the picture here I tried using thinner spacers (0.125" and 0.25") but there is still contact when I try to line up the bottom of the coilover.
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[Santiago]

Check your control arm lengths. I seem to recall having similar contact at first, so I had to adjust the links (I think it was the upper trailing link). The knuckle moves around quite a bit with small changes in control arm length.