Thoughts on the 818 Body War.

[305mouse]

I think when Dave says he wants it to be the best performing FFR car to date, he might be talking about sales. This is the "world car". Something to ship to anyone across the globe. It gonna change the face and future of FFR.

As far as looks better than it performs. It has to turn heads, hence the HoF statement. You can make it as powerfull as you want. From a N/A 2.5 oem block to 600hp built motor ready to destroy tires. At 1800 lbs the car is gonna haul *** no matter what.

Last but not least, Dave's statement is a given. You know they won't release it till it's done and done right.

[Dave Smith]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.

2. Models. Back from SEMA so I'll shoot off the other models sure. I go to Cali for the last day of filming Car Warriors this Friday and I'll see if Mad Dog can shoot the other models for you guys in the next few days, or at least some quick shots of each in the real world for a better comparo.

3. "Used car salesman"? I believe my record should earn me a pass from such comments. Every single thing I've said on the 818 has been accurate and part of a deliberate and planned development path. Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this. Involving the community was part fun, part community (I have this crazy thingy about this forum charter and community) and part savvy business (better design ideas than in the FFR bubble). In the end I know the project will benefit from this even though its not always real fun.

To make things easier for you guys I will re-state the three things I said so that I don't disappoint:

1. The car will be a slowpoke on the track. Miatas will crowd its mirrors and corner workers will call for the crash truck thinking the car is broken as it struggles to get out of it's own way... OR it will weigh 1800 lbs and have a stiff chassis a perfect weight balance in an optimized mid-engine layout, and is being engineered by a company that has developed some of the worlds best component cars and has raced in our own racing series for over 10 years and has decided that this car will be it's most significant step forward... so I think it'll be fast.

2. The car will be an ugly catfish with toyota lines and we'll ignore the entire community and leave stunning designs on the drawing board so that we can secretly design our own car no matter what it looks like and no matter how poorly it sells... OR when you see the first production model you will do a Micheal Jackson Pepsi commercial (HoF) and you'll be willing to punch your mom right in the nose to get the chance to crawl behind the wheel and drop the hammer, sliding sideways out of the parking lot with tires spinning and engine screaming... one of those.

3. We'll start selling deposits and promising the world everything under the sun, promising delivery in mere weeks of an untested, uninvented car, that fails to launch years after it was promised, while we ignore everything we've learned in the last 15 years and using used car salesmen tactics to get people excited about a corvette, while selling em a Yugo (thats that "other company" actually!).. OR we might do our homework, we might use the latest CAD software and flow analysis and modeling, we might build a prototype or several, maybe benchmark other great designs and incorporate the feedback of knowledgeable customers, we could trust a small and diverse but competent crew of customers and builders in a well planned beta program, enlist the support of our best suppliers, and launch the car in a way that will make the auto world stop and say, "shoot, those FFR guys are friggin AWESOME!"... one of those.

[Best of the best]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.

2. Models. Back from SEMA so I'll shoot off the other models sure. I go to Cali for the last day of filming Car Warriors this Friday and I'll see if Mad Dog can shoot the other models for you guys in the next few days, or at least some quick shots of each in the real world for a better comparo.

3. "Used car salesman"? I believe my record should earn me a pass from such comments. Every single thing I've said on the 818 has been accurate and part of a deliberate and planned development path. Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this. Involving the community was part fun, part community (I have this crazy thingy about this forum charter and community) and part savvy business (better design ideas than in the FFR bubble). In the end I know the project will benefit from this even though its not always real fun.

To make things easier for you guys I will re-state the three things I said so that I don't disappoint:

1. The car will be a slowpoke on the track. Miatas will crowd its mirrors and corner workers will call for the crash truck thinking the car is broken as it struggles to get out of it's own way... OR it will weigh 1800 lbs and have a stiff chassis a perfect weight balance in an optimized mid-engine layout, and is being engineered by a company that has developed some of the worlds best component cars and has raced in our own racing series for over 10 years and has decided that this car will be it's most significant step forward... so I think it'll be fast.

2. The car will be an ugly catfish with toyota lines and we'll ignore the entire community and leave stunning designs on the drawing board so that we can secretly design our own car no matter what it looks like and no matter how poorly it sells... OR when you see the first production model you will do a Micheal Jackson Pepsi commercial (HoF) and you'll be willing to punch your mom right in the nose to get the chance to crawl behind the wheel and drop the hammer, sliding sideways out of the parking lot with tires spinning and engine screaming... one of those.

3. We'll start selling deposits and promising the world everything under the sun, promising delivery in mere weeks of an untested, uninvented car, that fails to launch years after it was promised, while we ignore everything we've learned in the last 15 years and using used car salesmen tactics to get people excited about a corvette, while selling em a Yugo (thats that "other company" actually!).. OR we might do our homework, we might use the latest CAD software and flow analysis and modeling, we might build a prototype or several, maybe benchmark other great designs and incorporate the feedback of knowledgeable customers, we could trust a small and diverse but competent crew of customers and builders in a well planned beta program, enlist the support of our best suppliers, and launch the car in a way that will make the auto world stop and say, "shoot, those FFR guys are friggin AWESOME!"... one of those.

Just stick with the winning design and you can't go wrong Dave. Thanks!

[David]

Dave S,

Thrilled to here you are talking directly with someone as talented as Rodney. If he understands the constraints, he can modify his design to fit them. I firmly believe that you can hit the price, and hit the HoF design as well.

I agree with Jeff re, behind the wheel, and the driver experience. IMHO, IF you nail both, the car may dwarf the Roadster sales... But it has to be both.(I know you know that)

David

[vozproto]

Dave,

I believe that your comment on the "used car salesman" was directed at me.
I apologize that my point was not written well enough that you misread my intended point. This was NOT a dig but a commendation on your tenacity to your end-goal.

"Dave has obviously just made his intentions known as far as the performance of the car in his first point. Read this in context. It will be the best performing FFR to date AND it will be even better looking than it performs. Dave has just painted himself into a corner and has but one way out without looking like a used car salesman."

I do believe that you have consciously "painted yourself in a corner with one way out" in the sense that you have decided to put your reputation on the line and promise the moon by all means necessary, and that is EXACTLY what you will deliver. And I believe you will.

And that having the "one way out" - having the most unbelievably hot looking and amazingly great performance car - is the only option you will accept.

My apologies once again for not being clearer.

[PhyrraM]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.
.

Fears calmed. Thanks Dave. You can obviously say what I have been trying to, just much more eloquently. We are on the same page afterall.

[vozproto]

tThe thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby.

Agreed. But the thought of this in an 818 though makes me absolutely giddy. VIR North was my favorite track when I was racing bikes. I was all about the quicker nimbler 600cc bikes over the scary 1000cc bikes.

And yeah... It's typically not the car that limits the performance. It's the guy behind the wheel. You see this in every form of amateur track days and racing. Anyone can hit the throttle between the turns, but what's the point if you can't carry the corner-speed.

[imom]

I want a car that is incredibly fast but more importantly is stunning to look at. Currently Rodneys Orange car, Shawn Whetstone and Vmans are my top three.

If speed is all that matters then I would build something like a MEV Rocket that only weights ~500kg and is powered by a Focus engine. It is as ugly as they come but is cheap and fast.

Attachment 6110
http://www.smartsrus.com/rtr_rocket.html

Funny that you mentioned a trike... my friend made his and it uses a turbo motorcycle engine 400hp... ~500kg.

http://www.martinomotorcompany.com/

[Psay]

Funny that you mentioned a trike... my friend made his and it uses a turbo motorcycle engine 400hp... ~500kg.

http://www.martinomotorcompany.com/

The last time I looked the MEV Rocket had 4 wheels, maybe one has fallen off!!

[imom]

The last time I looked the MEV Rocket had 4 wheels, maybe one has fallen off!!

didn't see the details...the back wheels look like a single....how is it any different than an atom than?

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this...

You don't know how many times I've read through a series of posts and thought "Man, I wonder if Dave and Jim are secretly wishing that they'd just kept it all under wraps until time to pull off the tarp for an unveiling a'la 'Larry'!"

Carry on,
Jeff

[2KWIK4U]

I think Dave must have a lot of confidence in order for this forum to be included in the design of a new kit. After building my Roadster and dealing with the company, I have no doubt he can deliver.

[NicksPapaw]

Dave, you have just made my day!!! That has got to be one of the funniest posts EVER!!! I truely don't understand why you put up with some of us on the forum. I guess that from your perspective, some of these posts are like reading the comics. I know everyone wants the car to be done yesterday. Real world is that I don't see how you have gotten this far this fast. Obviously you have a lot of tallent hidden behind the curtain in Wareham. Keep up the great work.

PS..... How about some spy shots from the Car Warriors show? We know you will be there.

[Dave Smith]

Voz: No worries at all. One of the challenges of Forums is that ALOT of the meaning and intentions are tough to communicate. No offense taken and I really am very thankful for the honest feedback.

I'll try and shoot some spy stuff out from Car Warriors, but I have to tell you, right now my heart goes out to those guys in a big way as they near the end of the 48 hours build. They only have about 7 hours left and none of them have slept since monday night. They will be EXHAUSTED tommorow at judging. The amount of love and passion and hard work that these two teams have VOLUNTEERED this week is humbling and a great example of community. I'll be there tonight and I'm bringing with me to the set a big shot of adrenaline for the guys as they will meet three beautiful and brave young girls who have all faced tough nights themselves fighting Cystic Fibrosis.

Got a great PM yesterday asking us to set up an 818 updates section on the forum so we (I) can put updates in a single location. That was a GREAT idea and I'll try and act on it when I get back in next week. The guy with the idea?... Voz. Thanks man! Keep up the good work and feedback.

[bromikl]

Got a great PM yesterday asking us to set up an 818 updates section on the forum so we (I) can put updates in a single location.

Be sure to block the updates section from posts. There's already an "818 Updates" thread which has devolved significantly...

[David Hodgkins]

DS PM sent...

[olpro]

I recently came across this. Although I have not actually seen this book personally, it appears to have some vital information which could positively impact this project and it is coming from authoritative sources. I plan to order it myself by the way.
http://www.amazon.com/H-Point-Fundam.../dp/1933492376

[vozproto]

^ Me likey. Wish they had a kindle/ipad version of it. Would be awefully convenient.