Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[xscott]

Sooo... We need more perspective photos!

That's what I was getting at. I don't think Camry lights are necessarily a bad choice. The angle at which they appear in the rendering may be deceiving. The puegot lights look similar to these camry lights. Maybe swooped up just a little bit more, but I think perspective does a lot of the swooping too.

[Oppenheimer]

I imagine that Dave's choice of using Jim's design was based more on effort to fit the frame than anything else. That design was the only one built from the start with full knowledge of template and manufacturing contraints. It was probably just too much to try and get one of the other designs to fit, still look good, still fit the budget, along with all the other 'firsts' that are involved in this project, all in the timeframe needed for launch.

Engineering can be done: Cheap, Fast, Good, pick any 2.

Dave has always said there would be more than one body design. He has hinted there could eventually be a lot of body designs. So if you want an 818, but don't like this design, then you could:

- build it anyway, value performance/$ over looks
- wait for a body design you like better to be released
- buy kit, modify body to your liking
- buy kit without body, build your own
- buy kit without body, buy body from someone else (guessing vendors will appear with other body designs for 818 chassis)

You have a lot of choices here. And yes, one of them is to go buy/build something else.

But before you critize the situation that exists right now, think about this, if FFR does end up building several 818 body designs, including the most popular ones discussed on the forum, maybe even some replica's (or allows other vendors to build them), then harsh critizisms made today might seem rather petty in hindsight.

There is room for everyone to get what they want here, but only if the car succeeds to the point that there is $ to go building these other body designs. So bottom line, if you really don't like this design, your best bet is to support the 818 as much as you can, so that your favorite can have its day.

[xscott]

Heres the headlights at a different angle and some tweaks to the car i made. Maybe we just need more photos!

[shim2]

I think you're right. That looks much much better.

[j32driver]

I've been picking pennies up off the street for a couple of years, saving up to build a Roadster. Then I found the 818 project a couple of months ago. Once I stumbled upon RodneyO's body design, and it looked like F5 was studying his CAD files and leaning in that direction... there was NO QUESTION I was going to build an 818 (and much sooner than I was going to do a Roadster).

Now that I've seen the official 818R... I'm left kind of, well.... "eh" for lack of a better word. The nose just ruins the car for me. It looks like my 16 year old neighbors, tricked out Civic with a grapefruit shooter for a muffler. Everything else about the car's shape looks pretty sexy so far. But the nose alone would be enough to make me not build one until there is a better solution. If Rodney's design can be an upgrade option in the future, I will simply wait for that.

FACTORY 5... PLEASE!!!!! If this is the only body we are going to get from you... please rework the nose of the car. Take some style cues from Rodney for the front bumper and I think you would please a lot of us that are griping.

[bugeye_fever]

I think the rendering looks great. Something to think about though, there's no way one design is going to make everyone happy, its just not possible. And usually the unhappy people are the most vocal. Now take into account how many people were involved with this project, and all of us here on the forums putting in our 2 cents. Nobodies getting exactly what they want... Or are we, its still 1800lbs, its still got an extremely flexable subie drivetrain. I think we've nearly lost sight of what we all wanted in the begining. Plus, any self respecting car guy(probably in the world) who didnt know about ffr, now does(when I see something on the internet that starts with Mclaren, I click on it!) Which is probably the reason I haven't gotten the main ffr page to load in the last couple of days.

I'm not worried about the looks, look at the rest of the factory five line up, who thinks Dave Smith is gonna release something that isn't awesome? On that note kudos to a company president who actually gets on the forums to talk to potential customers.. that's pretty rare.

On the lighter side, there's an irony here I think is missed, and the subie faithfulls will understand. Since when has something related to Subaru ever been universally accepted from the start, lol. They grow on you!!

<Proud bugeye owner

[Mechie3]

Tis true. Forum dwellers on NASIOC still complain about the ugly 08-12 models for the impreza. Funny thing, their sales exploded started in 08 and really took off in 2010. Those that were around since 02 liked the quirky bugeye and hated the new stuff. They were a minority though. Sales records show as such.

[RM1SepEx]

People that want to "take their ball and go home" need to get a life.

Dave and the Factory 5 crew have put together an awesome car that can be built at a relatively low cost. I'm all in, can't wait, already starting my project with a donor to strip and refit as required.

If you don't like the body as designed wait for another or modify it on your own. Perhaps they will sell you the chassis on it's own, several threads talk about modifying the chassis as well for other engines, trans etc... Perhaps there is a business opportunity out there for someone. I'm sure small business opportunities will spring up as they have for the rest of the F5 stable of cars.

The design looks great, is it "out there" like Rodney's NOPE, is it totally unique from the side like Xabier's NOPE, it is agressive and muscular.

It is a smooth agressive design that should outperform anything in it's price range and REDEFINE what a kit is!

I see tons of complaints that have no place here... Targa, coupe etc... Roll up windows, no zip up windows, come on we are talking a sub $10K kit here!!!

from the outset Dave indicated that a roadster would be first and that he would not produce a car w/o a top again (lesson learned with the Spyder) He's done exactly that.

Am I disappointed that it isn't a it more like Xabier's (my favorite and my desktop for months) ... perhaps, BUT what they have presented will give me the opportunity to build a car myself that I'll be proud to drive every chance I get unless I know that it will rain. It will have that emergency top to keep my leather seats dry. I'll reserve my old BMW 325IC for that probable rain duty, she isn't bad when it rains and the top goes up fast.

My wife likes the design, I'm happy with it so it has the needed blessing to receive the family finances and we are a GO!!!

[Evan78]

Agreed. I doubt many (or any?) of the people saying the looks kill it for them were going to buy anyway. Is there any kit in this price range that has looks even in this ballpark? The only kits I know at this price level are Locosts and exoskeleton cars, and none of them are going to win any beauty contests.

[kach22i]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/


Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

[Dave Smith]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

[Mike N]

Kach22i I think you are really hitting on the key issue with the balance comment, the front overhang looks out of proportion in the view shown. The shorter overhang really does look more aggressive, but we know that the rear overhang is not going to be super short in order to house the trans so may be a different angle might give a distinctly different impression. But we don't have another angle so we really can't say. I would also prefer if the front end didn't look like it was blowing a kiss, a bit goldfish like, but that would be the simplest thing to fix yourself if you really wanted to. I think some graphics, mesh, blacked out areas would do a pretty good job of making the grill area look much better. Bottom line for me is that overall the car is 95% there and the styling is probably 75/80% there.

Interesting poll in another thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-take-on-this that now has close to 100 votes and is showing a slightly above average but not spectacular (HoF) response to the current design.

[Mike N]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

Got slightly off topic didn't we? Just like herding cats......

[RedJoker]

Got slightly off topic didn't we? Just like herding cats......

Wait, there is a topic?

[bugeye_fever]

Sorry 'bout that, kind of got on a rant. My feedback, bring the street car, show art of the track car. As long as both styles are present visually though I think it'll be good. If you bring the track car, it'll blow people away, and they may look at a rendering of the street car and say, hey thats something I can actually do and use! Or you bring the street car, it still blows people away as something pretty unique and attainable, then they see the renderings of the track car, and they're blown away again with its potential.

The little boy in me wants you to bring the track car though.. since that's what I'm more interested in, I've been going back and looking over the roadster all day today, love it.

[Mike N]

Wait, there is a topic?

The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

Original topic?

[smoove7410]

I vote track for sure....more of an attention grabber. If I end up building one, it will be a track R version that I'll drive on the street with a full face helmet. I love the open cockpit feel with no windshield.

Obviously, you used the camry headlights due to inclusion of the turn signal, angle of the lens and cost. If it is possible, I would look into the s2000 headlight. It costs the same but is smaller and may fix the issue with the front some are having.

[scartaan]

The two areas that I think could be improved are 1) The shortened nose that Katch has rendered is the most important, and was a great improvement in how it looked . 2) lowering the top line @ the door area would be a big improvement as well. This was addressed somewhat with the 2-tone paint job. It appears " the die is cast", however, so that #2 is not feasible , but #1 might be possible. On a street car, the approach angle as it sits now, would scrape on any undulation in the road, so that any shortening of the nose would help.

[Mechie3]

Everyone I showed that blue/white 818R rendering to said "Awesome!". After I said I was going to build one they said "YES!". Well, car guys did, my mom said "looks dangerous (and awesome)". :lol:

I say lead with the 818R

[shim2]

I vote track for sure....more of an attention grabber. If I end up building one, it will be a track R version that I'll drive on the street with a full face helmet. I love the open cockpit feel with no windshield.

Obviously, you used the camry headlights due to inclusion of the turn signal, angle of the lens and cost. If it is possible, I would look into the s2000 headlight. It costs the same but is smaller and may fix the issue with the front some are having.

I'm not sure where you are getting this but s2k headlights are steep. Did a quick ebay search, oem headlights go for 200-500 a piece! You can get a set of camry lights for 200-300. The ebay knock-offs are a bit cheaper at 3-400 a pair, still more than camry which was 199-299 a pair.

I really don't understand all the hate for the camry headlights. I like them and their decision makes sense.

Dave, thanks for showing us the 818R. My initial reaction to it was positive. I'm curious about some things but that doesn't take away from the fact that you and your team has designed a nice car and I'm anxious for more updates.

You should definitely lead with it, I showed my wife her first reaction was "wow, that's nice!" That seems to be the general reaction with people I've shown. Take the negative comments here(mine included) with a grain of salt. I think the overall feeling on the forum about the car is positive.

[miznitic]

I was initially thrilled with the concept and many of the designs were great, and then some of the concepts were shown and I lost some interest. Now, with this car, I'm just not feeling it at all.

[Vman7]

I imagine that Dave's choice of using Jim's design was based more on effort to fit the frame than anything else. That design was the only one built from the start with full knowledge of template and manufacturing contraints. It was probably just too much to try and get one of the other designs to fit, still look good, still fit the budget, along with all the other 'firsts' that are involved in this project, all in the timeframe needed for launch.

Engineering can be done: Cheap, Fast, Good, pick any 2.

Dave has always said there would be more than one body design. He has hinted there could eventually be a lot of body designs. So if you want an 818, but don't like this design, then you could:

- build it anyway, value performance/$ over looks
- wait for a body design you like better to be released
- buy kit, modify body to your liking
- buy kit without body, build your own
- buy kit without body, buy body from someone else (guessing vendors will appear with other body designs for 818 chassis)

You have a lot of choices here. And yes, one of them is to go buy/build something else.

But before you critize the situation that exists right now, think about this, if FFR does end up building several 818 body designs, including the most popular ones discussed on the forum, maybe even some replica's (or allows other vendors to build them), then harsh critizisms made today might seem rather petty in hindsight.

There is room for everyone to get what they want here, but only if the car succeeds to the point that there is $ to go building these other body designs. So bottom line, if you really don't like this design, your best bet is to support the 818 as much as you can, so that your favorite can have its day.

Well said!

I posted this over in the next body style thread, I should have posted it here, sorry about that.

Time to let this body style thing go and let Dave, Jim & FFR do what they do best and get the 818 out there. Allow time for them to develop, refine etc. after the car has been launched, just like they have done with all their other designs.

I figure depending on how well the 818 is recieved by the public, by sales, performance, styling etc., only then can FFR move on to refining the car, not only in body style, but also performance. This will take time, and depending on how things go FFR will make their own decision on how to move forward with the 818.

Like I said in the other thread. Be Patient and give FFR some time! Like a good wine, it takes time. Rome wasn't built in day.

Again, let Dave, Jim and the FFR team do their job

David

[kach22i]

....s2k headlights are steep.

Too bad, they would fit like a glove.

The downside is that it might look like an S2000 at first glance.

Not my problem, I've done all I can.

http://www.semashow.com/the-sema-show

SEMA Show takes place October 30 - November 2, 2012 at the Las Vegas Convention Center.

See you guys on-line in November, don't think there will be anything here in the forum until then by the sound of it.

Cheers, George/kach22i

[Tanimal]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

Going back to that question I would say the track car would be best.

Here why and a few things to chew on:

Your plan it to market this globally and Our ideas of what a hot smoking car "is" all differ drastically (all over the world) but what we all do have consensus on is performance. From drifter in japan to the guys cruising on the autobahn. What matter is how it performs and you want to go with your best performance platform. I'm not so sure what the suspension configuration is for the 818 but is it meant for circle track, auto cross, drifting or whatever else? And if it was meant for one how easy is it adapt it for something else?

Personally I would like to see the commuter beast that I would lightly modify for track weekends. I do it for fun so I don't need something crazy fast ...just stupid fast.

For the PR guys:
If you want to market this globally, get your over seas contacts to build an 818R (chassis or full body) using what they could find in their home country and then drop the hammer. I love to see it fly around the Nürburgring, cruising down and Italian country side, or drift around a Japanese neighborhood. I would market Germany,UK and Japan. The thing about a kit car is that it is a bases platform for you to make something of your own. I guess a cheeze line would be "This is my 818" and have a guy/gal stand with t their version of the 818. I'm a body tech so it comes naturally to me to modify something I don't like, It all comes down to how much time I want to spend sanding. (Strong economy, with big performance market, I would do Italy or France too but their economy isn't as strong right now but since they are in the same neighbor hood as the UK and Germany it would cross over slowly. Japan is about the strongest Asian market for consumer spending in cars.)

[smoove7410]

I'm not sure where you are getting this but s2k headlights are steep. Did a quick ebay search, oem headlights go for 200-500 a piece! You can get a set of camry lights for 200-300. The ebay knock-offs are a bit cheaper at 3-400 a pair, still more than camry which was 199-299 a pair.

I really don't understand all the hate for the camry headlights. I like them and their decision makes sense.

Dave, thanks for showing us the 818R. My initial reaction to it was positive. I'm curious about some things but that doesn't take away from the fact that you and your team has designed a nice car and I'm anxious for more updates.

You should definitely lead with it, I showed my wife her first reaction was "wow, that's nice!" That seems to be the general reaction with people I've shown. Take the negative comments here(mine included) with a grain of salt. I think the overall feeling on the forum about the car is positive.

I guess it depends what you are used to. $500 per oem light is cheap to me. My lights on my car run $1,200 per light. Since the Camry lights that they have used in the illustrations are not oem, I looked at the equivalent S2k lights, which are 3-400 a pair as you said. $400 for two headlights is cheap, at least to me, and the additional 100 in parts over the Camry lights, will not blow the budget on the build.

[07FIREBLADE]

^^^ completely true, headlights for my mercedes were the same as yours and I had to replace one recently. The only thing that i can find troublesome would be to get the aftermarket headlights and grafting them into the body, not that hard for me to do. The issue i see with this though is having to pay for paint and getting by the brake and light inspections which i believe is necessary to get the car registered in CA. So pretty much for me to change the headlights I would be buying OEM not aftermarket so its DOT approved and then modifying the front end prior to registration or registering the car then do my body work....

Hopefully when the car is finally reveiled though the car will have some slight modifications done to make it a bit more aesthetically appealing. But if not its no big deal its still a decent looking design. The more work FFR does the less that I need to do.

[VTX]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/


Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

The headlights are an improvement, but not there yet. However, I will say that personally I don't like the shortened look of it. I like how it is now. Shortening it to me gives it a little bit of a "cute" feel IMHO.

Actually, I think the way FFR designed it is really pretty good. I'd just like to see it with different headlights and in a solid color and different wheels before I can say for sure how I feel about it.

[mug23]

Can someone edit the picture above with some CCW custom wheels with some lip and solid colors? Maybe that will change the looks a bit.

I really like the shorter front end as it will less weight over the front end that in return will improve handling.

[bromikl]

We expected jim's design to be dead and it isn't. We expected something different. Dave posts an update of jim's design, states that it is an update of jim's design, and there is an uproar.

shinn497 said it best.

Dave said repeatedly that he LOVED Xabier's track version. Therefore we expected something like Xabier's design.
Dave said Jim's design was dead. So we expected it would be unlike Jim's design. Silly us.

The track version is a good looking car - in a relative sense. It would easily win hands down in beauty pageants with 99% of the cars on the road. But it's not what we expected. Anyone who didn't have pre-formed ideas about the track car would certainly say he'd love to own it. But I'd also agree it could look better with a shorter front overhang and different headlights. Regardless, the track version isn't what interests me.

I'm still holding out hope of building some version of Rodney O's car. And I'm definitely not going to say "If it's not O's I'm taking my ball and going home." Whatever Dave comes up with will look GREAT. Even if the O is never an option, the 818 will perform so well at an unbeatable price, it could look like a Saab and I'd drive it!

saab.jpg

[Arrowhead]

The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

That is an incredibly difficult choice, in a perfect world bringing both the track and street car would be the way to go. As has been mentioned here before, it's not just about the people walking around the show, it's the press afterwards that's helps promote so even just bringing one will open the door to the media to bring out the rest of the story.
As much as I think the street car is the broader audience, the track car is the one that will WOW people. I think it would be worth investing a backdrop or large poster that clearly shows the options for the base car. Don't let people walk away (even the casual spectator) that the track car is all that is being launched.

[Mechie3]

I actually love the wheels on the rendering. Has a (IMO) very Le Mans look to me. Love it!

[Justen]

Wow, Just changing the headlights make it look way better! I love it. I guess it was just the Camry headlights that was making it look so bland. I would still buy it either way, but would like to see smaller headlights on it like the pics below:

Change the headlights and call it a day, just about anything will be better.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/

[Justen]

Even just changing the headlight angle and giving them a black background give it a much better look.

Heres the headlights at a different angle and some tweaks to the car i made. Maybe we just need more photos!

[blueafro]

On the original topic, I'd say show off the version which is most feature complete. If they both are, then bring the one the marketing people expect will sell the most units.

As to the thread drift, the photo was posted in this one, so it was bound to derail the conversation, no matter what people though.

[zzospreyzz55]

It seems to me that most companies when designing performance cars will test and show the world their car with the flagship of performance first and then entice the public that a reliable and affordable street model is also available but will be engineered from race proven technologies. Audi, porsche, GM, jaguar, nissan, pugeot, ferrari, etc... they all do it in the SCCA and similar. Why would FFR not lead with the 818R and have some wicked track numbers to back up the car and then push a more affordable option that can be used on the street?

As for the design, I thought it was funny as I've been creeping on this site for a few months now enjoying the evolution of this project. The initial reaction was passionate, but I guess it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Dave came on and let you know that his feelings were hurt and gave the "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" speech, and it sucked all the passion out of the forum. Unfortunately, with the passion I think went a bit of the honesty from some of the people. My honest and brutal opinion of the body design is that it's uninspired and unremarkable. I think the rating of the body around a 7/10 is accurate.

The design is not displeasing and will sell, probably more so for the numbers the car has attributed to it than people actually being drawn to the visual appearance of it. Which is fine and probably a smart business move- but the design is being produced already behind the times. It looks like a car from the late 2000s and one that you could expect to currently see in production but nearing the end of it's design run. However, this is all judgement from one single CAD drawing, it's not what the car is actually looking like. I can't see all the lines of the car from that pic, however we all seem to agree that it's missing something. I don't think it's the headlights (though that may be part of it), I think it's the contours. The new designs that are coming out have more definition, edges and contours that break up the flat panels on the body. See the 2013 Corvette and Viper... For that matter even Scion is getting in on a slightly more modern aggressive look with their FR-S. Other companies also found that it was difficult to come up with new designs that had mass appealed, so they retroed back to their roots (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger)... Heck, the AC/Shelby Cobra body is widely regarded as one of, if not the prettiest car ever built! Why, because it had a lot of masculine curves and contours to it.

I understand that cost is prohibitive, and that's fine. Like I said, the body is still attractive enough that it will not deter any more buyers than a more unique body style would. However, I think what is shown here is an excellent base, for a work in progress and there could be a little bit more aggressiveness and masculinity added to give the car a more fresh, modern and aggressive look to match the performance. If you're going through the trouble of designing a car from the ground up, why not make the appearance as impressive as the performance?

I'm not out and am still heavily considering purchasing one, even if the body stays the same. Although I may hold out for the roll-up windows. All those summers riding with my dad in his 1959 Triumph TR-3A has given me an aversion to side curtains.

[Etos]

Ok so I just sat down at a hotel for WBM after visiting FFR open house event(got there super late). I got a chance to 1on1 with Jim about the car and I'd like to share some info.

-Bodies are universal. Hardtop/coupe/whatever it will be will fit a subaru drivetrain no problem. Dave needs to work on his wording as well

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

-For those interested in how the intercooler gets air, it's from the top 2 vents on each side.

-Links for the STi wheel hub is being considered and Jim assures me he understands why people want the STi hubs. A little CV mutilation is required but cheap if you take it to a shop that specializes on such things.

-Use of the motor mounts/tranny mount are needed. This is a great thing as it allows the user to decide how much NVH they would prefer.

-Holes must be drilled into the front arms for the coil spring. Jim says this is fine and done on many FFR cars. Templates will be provided to get the right holes.

-The car is surprisingly easy to get in and out from. To understand I have a completely busted up left knee that can't bend further then ~70 degrees so it's hard to get out of cars for me. S2000 is a serious pain in the ***. The 818 was surprisingly easy.

-It seems the NA exhaust is causing them some problems. They are figuring out how to get the exhaust to work and it definitely looks like a challenge.

-People worried about the rear shifter assembly, there will be guards around it to survive a small fender bender. A flat out rear end will probably result in damage but that's just the nature of the beast.

[PhyrraM]

Any conversation on:

Fly-by-wire/Throttle cable differences
Wide Sedans/Narrow Wagons differences

[trublue]

Dave,
Definitely show the 818R Version at SEMA and have one for motor magazine writers to drive. The street models will bask in the glow created by the top performance model. Congratulations on another FFR milestone!
Art

[Xusia]

Ok so I just sat down at a hotel for WBM after visiting FFR open house event(got there super late). I got a chance to 1on1 with Jim about the car and I'd like to share some info.

Thank you!

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

Agree. That sounds very reasonable and makes me very excited!

-Use of the motor mounts/tranny mount are needed. This is a great thing as it allows the user to decide how much NVH they would prefer.

I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?

[metalmaker12]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...%20and%20Ends/


Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

Do not like it stretched, the car looks good the way it is. Let it beeeeeeee