Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[apexanimal]

the other option would be a full decked-out street version... beefed-up engine with the race brakes and suspension, etc etc... but with the street body and maybe some aero tweaks as well...

[David Budd]

Dave-- Introduce the street car. Have accurate renderings of both the track version and the high mileage version on hand and as you move toward production phase in all three during 2013 with the street version available first, followed in a couple of months by the track version and finally by the hypermileage version. I suspect you are going to be overwhelmed by orders for the street version, including mine.

[Silvertop]

Selfishly, I'd rather see the street version shown first, since it is what I am going to build. However, if we are interpreting correctly that we are talking specifically about which car you will lead with at the SEMA show, but not necessarily which car you will launch into production first, it doesn't really matter much. It sounds to me that the Roadster and the track car may both be available to purchase from the git-go. Can you clarify that?.

The track car will be sexier, and may draw bigger crowds at SEMA. The street version will be your bread and butter for sales. So it is easy to justify either choice. It's your party. Go with your heart. But do let us see both versions -- at least in renderings. That will be enough for me to make my decision to start shopping in earnest for my donor. Here's hoping that you can come through at least with renderings of both versions at your June 9 Open House, and that those renderings will also be available on the FFR website.

Perhaps you will also be able to clarify at the Open House whether or not the roadster also may be fitted with a Targa Top at some future point, and if it will be able to be retro-fitted to the earliest cars.

I'm excited. Can't wait for the Open House. Wish I could be there.

[Dave Smith]

GREAT GREAT feedback! Thought about this all night. Especially cause the guys brought back some really amazing track videos in-car with like 4 different go-pros on the car (raced sans body in high speed autocross) and the footage shows how fast the car is. The footage is exciting though becuase the car (right now 1510lbs on scales without body) is sick fast... you can just tell from the footage how hard it accels, brakes and especially turns... all this with the street car set-up, street shocks, street tires (!) and and upgraded wilwood brakes. Jim and Jesper and the guys are doing alot of baseline testing and I will post some of the driving videos here before open house. It's not surprising though because the car weighs closer to a motorcycle at this point than a car and the chassis and suspension were designed by Jim, who is a veteran of this work and understands the design goals clearly.

I can't answer all the questions, and I think I'l get some videos posted and a few images of the exact body #1 posted before making the final call... still have time as the core shapes and molds are being made still and we havent seen a production body part.

Again, THANKS for the great feedback, high quality thoughts and suggestions, and mostly for your passion in the effort. In the end it's my job and I'll make the call personally about the product launch and details supporting it. I am not negotiable on SEMA since it is THE place for aftermarket industry (like us and our community which is NOT yet mainstream)... The only chance that the SEMA intro gets knocked off it's perch is if Hewlett Packard steps up with the development story sponsorship and documentary production, but thats another story!

Again, HUGE thanks and please know that I take this effort and job very seriously and am very appreciatie of the contributions you guys have made. It is my job alone to make sure that we (FFR) DELIVER and EXECUTE on this important project and the design goals set forth. The talent and support we've got assembled on this one is impressive. Thanks.

[leetfade]

Excited for November! I really want to see those videos.. I think I'm almost more excited to see that than the body design that may or may not change. ;-)

[Oppenheimer]

One thing to keep in mind, Dave is talking about which car to show at SEMA, not which car to put into production first, not which car to market more.

Most people at SEMA are there as business people first, as car guys second (maybe a real close second). The people FFR really needs to impress here are the ones that will generate press, and generate buzz. This isn't an overall marketing strategy, its a one-time event full of industry insiders. The focus of this shouldn't be to make people want to buy an 818, but rather to make them realize how many other people are going to want to buy one. Make them see how big this will be to their industry.

PS - this comment by Dave has me thinking Xabier (with some RISD mods):

The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

[BipDBo]

Track version.
My recommendation is to release it with the track version but to keep it true to the design goal of being cheap. You don't want to announce the release of a kit car that can be built for $15,000 but have to say, but this car, with all of it's goodies cost $30,000. Also, it should be street legal. You don't want potential customers to have to consider having to buy a trailer and a large truck. If they get serious, they eventually will. If you can get people to dream of getting to the track for the cost of an econocar, they will respond as such:
Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg

Also, I'm seeing a diminished point in having a non-track roadster at all. Let's face it, due to budget and weight restrictions the 818, at least at the release date, will not be a very refined ride. It will have a soft top, no roll up windows and probably no AC. It will essentially be a road legal track car, just without some of the track specific safety features like a cage, racing seat, harness, etc. You don't want anyone reporting on this to say, Factory Five releases an affordable road going kit car, but it doesn't look like something you would want for a daily driver. The 818 track version will be more natural, everything that you would expect from a track car.

The 818 I think will have a different, much larger audience from other kit cars. The typical kit car is an extra, toy car, that gets pulled out for a weekend drive in good weather, and doesn't log a lot of miles. The typical customer has the money and garage space for an extra toy car. The 818, however, will appeal to a lot of people, like myself, who don't have that kind of money, people whom a kit car is otherwise out of reach. A "peoples fit" if you will. I foresee a lot of 818s being used as daily drivers, which shouldn't be a problem given the longevity of Subaru engines. There was a recent article of someone logging 62,000 miles on his MK4. Subaru owners typically drive their cars well over 100,000 miles, so I'll bet 818s will log a lot of miles. I think these customers will expect at least heat and AC, and may be more attracted to the coupe. Therefore I think that the road going version should have a grand release when a little more comfort refinement is available.

[leetfade]

One thing to keep in mind, Dave is talking about which car to show at SEMA, not which car to put into production first, not which car to market more.

Most people at SEMA are there as business people first, as car guys second (maybe a real close second). The people FFR really needs to impress here are the ones that will generate press, and generate buzz. This isn't an overall marketing strategy, its a one-time event full of industry insiders. The focus of this shouldn't be to make people want to buy an 818, but rather to make them realize how many other people are going to want to buy one. Make them see how big this will be to their industry.

I somewhat agree with this. I believe your first sentence is important for people to realize, however.

Most business men / women in this industry are enthusiasts, however (hence your close second comment). Those that are at SEMA from a solely business stand point aren't likely to stop at the FFR booth because it's not something they're going to resell or manufacture parts solely for. You don't see a lot of companies making product solely for kit cars because, as Dave stated, it's not mainstream or mass produced.

Now, having said that, it is about the buzz the enthusiast side creates. I agree that the target needs to be the people that are going to circulate impressions / information regarding the grand unveiling. I also think that the overall impression will be determined by if these people would want to own one themselves.

Everyone at SEMA likes seeing supercars. Some won't like seeing their supercars upstaged by a $15k kit car but most of us will. ;-)

Either way I think it's imperative to highlight both models (even if one is just with rendering, scale models, etc) and highlight the ability to build a well-powered street car for your target price, as well as, the differentiation between the models. But, to get people in the booth, the wow factor is what does it.

[Silvertop]

PS - this comment by Dave has me thinking Xabier (with some RISD mods):

The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

Yes, I picked up on that too. Here's hoping!!!

[jayguy]

I know it would be a lot of work, but how about a split car, half 818R, half street car? Especially if the body is nearly identical, this would show the attendees as well as the media that the car could be on or the other, or both. Split it down the middle, include the cage (or maybe just half of it?) and show half race-prepped cockpit, half street/luxury and for sure have videos playing on a couple screens showing the car in autocross or on track.

[Oppenheimer]

I know it would be a lot of work, but how about a split car, half 818R, half street car? Especially if the body is nearly identical, this would show the attendees as well as the media that the car could be on or the other, or both. Split it down the middle, include the cage (or maybe just half of it?) and show half race-prepped cockpit, half street/luxury and for sure have videos playing on a couple screens showing the car in autocross or on track.

Cool idea. If that isn't feasible, maybe instead just show the cage suspended above the rest of the chassis, to show the race stuff is mostly add-on's to street. This could get accross the same notion, how close street is to race version. Someone else mentioned color coding the race chassis bits, to highlight the few places they differ. I think these all accomplish roughly the same goal, so whichever is easier to do.

...Most business men / women in this industry are enthusiasts, however (hence your close second comment). Those that are at SEMA from a solely business stand point aren't likely to stop at the FFR booth because it's not something they're going to resell or manufacture parts solely for. You don't see a lot of companies making product solely for kit cars because, as Dave stated, it's not mainstream or mass produced...

I see your point, but I was thinking that anyone making Subie engine or trans parts or even some suspension brake stuff it would be very relevant for them. Others making parts for other engines, they are going to want to know about alternate drivetrains, if there will be an 818 market for their stuff. Still others will be thinking bandwagon, how to we align with the next copycat that is sure to come along to build similar kits. All of this creates the buzz that is needed. Even if for no other reason than to stay abreast of what is hot in your industry.

If this is a next big thing for serious car guys, everyone at SEMA is going to want (to need) to get in on it at some level.

[RM1SepEx]

Yes, show the promised "you can build a kick A** sports car for under $15,000 (WRX TURBO) and it can be made a track BEAST with these simple adds and deletes. Also show generic coupe and talk to next year's high mileage car.

I think you must "deliver on the promise" of a $15K performance sports car. I'd be willing to bet that heads up it would beat as single donor Mustang Factory 5 roadster... perhaps some comparison shots data yada yada yada

[flytosail]

While the marketing potential of of a two sided car is unique, time and cost-wise this might not be the time for it. Dave, thank you for making usthe initial viewers of the end product.

I want to be able to explain this as a "race car with a tag" to others. With some type of targa/soft top giving this a practical side to it makes it "explainable" to the wife. While the cool factor of a GTM supercar may not be affordable this wil be. If I have to wait a year or two for the roof then so be it. Take your time and give us a race care now. Allowing the beta and go-getters to find any minor faults and kinks will make my build go faster.

Waiting till then.

[Dave Smith]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

[Xusia]

The anticipation is almost too much!

[07FIREBLADE]

Can't wait to see the video of that thing ripping it up on the track. Also tomorrow is the end of the week. Let's see this promised body already. I'm like a little kid staying up for Santa but its only June... Lol

[shim2]

Can't wait to see the video of that thing ripping it up on the track. Also tomorrow is the end of the week. Let's see this promised body already. I'm like a little kid staying up for Santa but its only June... Lol

YES! Tomorrow is end of the week(technically) Let's see some body and videos of this thing. Also, geez it's tiny. Looks smaller than that miata.

Also, if you don't mind what did you do with the power steering? Did you depower the rack or run the lines?

[Mechie3]

Not sure if this was brought up before, but different year Subaru's have different length downpipes coming off the turbo. Also, for those that go stage 2 (aftermarket downpipe, reflash the ECU) the biggest part is eliminating the OEM flat plate that covers the wastegate outlet. A bellmouth or divorced pipe is used. The adapter I saw was only a single pipe, making the jump to a bellmouth or divorced pipe more difficutl.

[D2W]

Really a fart can on the back? Just kidding, can't wait to see the video

[RM1SepEx]

I recognize that Miata! ProjectRally... you have been busy haven't you! I guess we know who took the video too. Looks about the same size as the Miata...

[Gary in NJ]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

OK, that's cool right there.

[Flamshackle]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

Ahhhh! The wait is killing me! I am gagging to see the body and cart footage :~)

Thanks for bringing us back into the circle Dave

It's lunch time on Friday here in Aotearoa already so let's see those pics! Hahaha...

[Flamshackle]

Also, if you don't mind what did you do with the power steering? Did you depower the rack or run the lines?

^^^ I would be interested to hear about this also.

[David Hodgkins]

That Go Cart is so cool...

[Smitty911]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

Some "Rough Order of Magnitude" info would be nice.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.

Smitty

[SkiRideDrive]

So excited for video!

Also, If you don't mind sharing at this point Dave since you mentioned you've had the car on the scales. Have you recorded a preliminary front/rear weight distribution for the 818 (preferably with driver)?

[gmaki]

Possibly useless input here but I don't think it matters what version of the car is initially shown. It ONLY matters which one, which SHAPE, which color, evokes the most emotional reaction upon first sight. Whatever that is... is the one to show.

Anyone who is going to actually buy a car will do so after spending a bunch of time on the website. so it seems driving them here is goal #1, and that (for me at least) is usually a reaction to seeing an image that made me go "WOW.. WHAT is THAT?"

It's too bad you can't assemble a focus group and have them look at each one separately while monitoring their heart rate. That would give you the answer.

[305mouse]

Hi Craig, any word on your WRX? This is based on a 02-07 WRX donor, so the DP didn't change there. If going with another donor you could have a custom DP/exhaust made up. You could even go N/A which I'm considering.

[Niburu]

Some "Rough Order of Magnitude" info would be nice.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.

Smitty

this
it's a track monster and daily driveable
keeps in the spirit of "I've heard it both ways"

[bobby1]

Race cars have sex appeal but car companies profits are driven by selling to the masses, which is why both the race and street version should be offered. The 818 could be a modern day version of the 60's Mustang where Lee Iacocca's goal was to build a $2,000 Ferrari. In addition, auto firms today aggressively promote gas mileage, which means the VW TDI should be offered as an option with the street version of the car since that mileage number would be awesome.

[thestigwins]

It's Friday.... end of the week! Let's see a video!!!!!!

Cue the music!

[vozproto]

I love how most of us went dormant... and now that Dave threw some chum in the water we're all circling looking for something to sink our teeth into.

[AJW Performance]

You have provided your own answer here.

Track car first.

Besides, if there are any rough, crude or unsophisticated details and or issues/finishes with the prototype, it will be much easier to forgive on a "track car" than on something allegedly ready for the street.

Agreed;
I feel both options each have their advantages and potential "disadvantages" from a marketing perspective (as far as which to release first) , but overall 818r first IMO would be best. Regardless, we can't wait!

[thestigwins]

we were never dormant.... just had nothing to post. I have been checking theses forums multiple times each day for longer than I care to remember!

[Oppenheimer]

It's too bad you can't assemble a focus group and have them look at each one separately while monitoring their heart rate. That would give you the answer.

...or hair temp sensor.

Dave said go-kart weighs 15xx lbs. Anyone else thinking how much will body & interior weigh, and how much does all that wiring in the passenger seat (that will get dieted out) weigh?

[Mechie3]

Hi Craig, any word on your WRX? This is based on a 02-07 WRX donor, so the DP didn't change there. If going with another donor you could have a custom DP/exhaust made up. You could even go N/A which I'm considering.

I thought it changed somewhere in 06. My aftermarket one is a shorty, but I thought somewhere the front midpipe length changed (thus, DP changed). My aftermarket pipe is a shorty anyways.

Car is up to $12k in reparis without disassembly. I sent him $750 more in aftermarket parts that would need to be replaced. Told him I'm hoping for a total since straightened frame cars never drive right.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.Smitty

818R with a street interior is what I think I want for my car. Racy looks with a nicer interior. More Ferrari esque (speed, looks, and comfort) and less lotus esque (speed, looks, nothing inside).

It's Friday.... end of the week! Let's see a video!!!!!!

Cue the music!

Glad I'm not the only one who thought of that video. I definitely checked your username to see if it said "letitsnow" as he loves to text me that video every friday. :lol:

I have been checking theses forums multiple times each day for longer than I care to remember!

Ever since my car wrecked i've been checking these multiple times per hour. :lol:

[Dave Smith]

Voz, yeah..Dormant for a bit on the information releases, but that was at my direction as I've wanted the team to get work done and we had gathered a great amount of feedback up to year end. Crowd-sourcing is good, as long as it contributes at nodes and doesn't direct the project or slow it too much. I've seen the daily picture game wreck good projects.

A few answers... Car has been tested with manual steering and brakes. Power is on the list.

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.

Fart can was to simply meet noise restrictions of test facility and is not final exhaust configuration of course.

Engineering is pleased with handling and performance so far and feels the design goals will be met. The only design goal at measurable risk at this point is the paint-free body and molding process, which is not anticipated to be a problem, but since it has never been done by us here at FFR, it is considered a risk/.

I should shill our development partners at Solidworks Software and say that the chassis rigidity is PHENOMENAL and the full frame is designed and tested and is an excellent foundation upon which the builders will be able to dial in a tremendous amount of power.

Video will be released at Open House. I can't say whether or not I will have time to shoot off one of the body images today...

[SkiRideDrive]

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.

Excellent. I get more excited with every bit of information that is released.

[vozproto]

I can't say whether or not I will have time to shoot off one of the body images today...

Just don't go downstairs to do it. Last time you were goin downstairs to get updates for us you didn't come back for 2 months.

[cob427sc]

I believe you should definitely go with your gut feeling. It's what got you this far with your business. With all the computer skills you have available, why not develop a hologram or similar tech of the other model - that type of a display would just kill at SEMA. I would think HP and Solidworks could develop something.