Adam's Canadian 13B Rotary 818-SR Build

[Canadian818]

Small update, no pics. I've found an adapter kit, includes flywheel. Unfortunately it costs about half of what the engine cost. It's 800AUD +400AUD for shipping. I'll bite the bullet and order it, but first I'll make a spacer out of wood to mock up the engine/trans before spending anymore on it. I also ordered some wrx rear brake backing plates. Is it bad that I had to re-read my own build thread to see where I left off?

[Frank818]

That is expensive indeed, but the problem with these adapters is that they are mandatory! And not too many choices around...

[Canadian818]

Well the holidays went by too quick, finally got to work in the garage today. I borrowed this bad boy to get the flywheel nut off the 13b. Figured while I was at it I would go ahead and install the 2wd conversion piece in.



For my non-818 friends and family reading, all the stuff on the floor is replaced with the piece in my hand making it 2wd.






Now to stick these together.



I drilled a center hole, the dowel hole, and then traced out the outside and holes. Also marked a center line.







I drilled the center larger, flipped the template over and marked out the engine side in a different color. I'll transfer it to wood tomorrow night. Hope to have it bolted together with the temporary spacer this weekend.

[Canadian818]

So it fits! My spacer is 1" thick, which should be close to the Aussie one I'll be purchasing. A few mods will be required to get it exactly where I want it. The thermostat housing had to be removed, I'll just put a 90 on it and mount a separate tank. I hacked off some of the lower coolant line as well, so another weld will be required there. The crank pulley turned to out to be a 2 piece so I was able to remove the outer belt ring and with the transmission mount in its slot it clears the frame. Lots of room for the twin turbos, however the lower wastegate will need to be slightly modified to clear the frame. Obviously a custom downpipe would be required, but based on the holding up the oem one I'd expect just modifying a aftermarket one would be easy enough.

Next step is to remove the engine, remove the turbos/manifold (probably going single vs replacing broken one), and the front lifting mount. I want to lift the engine another inch so its more square to the frame, and its in the way. It's also in the worst possible location, and my frame has the scars to prove it. The oil filler neck has to come off as well, it lines up with the top cross bar and also won't fit with my planned GM throttle body.

[Hindsight]

Great progress. Cant wait to see it run.

[Harley818]

Hey Adam,

Not sure if you noticed but Bob & Cincy pointed out to me that I didn't take out the bearing race from the upper shaft of the back of the trans.
Your photo in post 123, 3rd photo.... looks a little blurry, but it appears that the bearing race may still be in place.

See attached link for Photo.
I left mine in..... I see you now have yours buttoned up already..... but you might want to check. Mine was a "loose" fit and would have fallen out at some point.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attac...5&d=1415232132

[Canadian818]

Hey Adam,

Not sure if you noticed but Bob & Cincy pointed out to me that I didn't take out the bearing race from the upper shaft of the back of the trans.
Your photo in post 123, 3rd photo.... looks a little blurry, but it appears that the bearing race may still be in place.

See attached link for Photo.
I left mine in..... I see you now have yours buttoned up already..... but you might want to check. Mine was a "loose" fit and would have fallen out at some point.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attac...5&d=1415232132

Thanks Harley, I probably did leave it in.

[Frank818]

So it fits!

Great!! You made it much quicker than I did with my VR6, hopefully the rest will go as well! 2 turbos will be awesome.

[Canadian818]

No pictures tonight, but news and progress. Pulled the motor back out, and removed the OEM twin turbos and manifold. It's safe to say that'll never be going back on. Holy crap those manifolds are heavy. I'll get some bathroom scale weights of what I've taken off this motor soon. With the manifold removed I was able to inspect the internals (try that on your piston engines, lol), and there's no sign of damage what so ever. I'm able to crank the engine with a 3/8" ratchet easily, looked at all rotor faces and 6 apex seals. With each seal reaching the exhaust port I got a "puff" and it was slightly harder to spin as each rotor was compressing. Pretty neat design! I can't be certian that the compression will be great, but it's safe to say the car was parked due to the busted turbo and not catastrophic engine failure.

I will almost certainly be going single turbo now, and probably a twin scroll. I'd like to run a new BW EFR, but I'm not sure I want to dump 2k+ on the turbo alone. I might cheap out and experiment with some ebay turbos. I've actually be doing some reading on people buying 2-300$ Chinese GT35's and swapping out the centre sections for real ball bearing ones (5-600$) with good results. I have some time to decide, lots to do.

Finally heard back from my Aussie connection, turns out the adapter is 1.5" thick. I'll soon do some trimming and put the engine back in to see if I can find another 1/2". Can anyone think of a reason why the tranny couldn't be back another 1/2" besides bumper clearance?

[Scargo]

From what I was told by a guy using the Chinese turbos (in a twin-turbo high-performance track car, no less, not unlike the 818) is that they are truly throw-away turbos that don't last long. I would worry about something disintegrating and getting into the motor. I have two EFR turbos and may get one for the 818.

[Frank818]

Finally heard back from my Aussie connection, turns out the adapter is 1.5" thick. I'll soon do some trimming and put the engine back in to see if I can find another 1/2". Can anyone think of a reason why the tranny couldn't be back another 1/2" besides bumper clearance?

Half an inch? That's nothing! You could go more backwards. I can't recall where your axles are with your "wrong" 1" thick plate, but if they are in normal location, half an inch back is baby talk.

Don't let that spoil your rotary build!

[Niburu]

I am soooo subscribe to this thread!

Adam is the adapter 1.5" thick so the friction plate and clutch are at the correct distance from each other?

[Frank818]

Yeah Adam, been a while without updates, I know you work something like 70h/week, but now over a month, would be cool to know where you're at.

[Wayne Presley]

Adam, where did you get the adapter?

[Cbus]

Subscribed to your thread. I'll also be doing a rotary 818. Been into rotaries for 18 years. Looks like
Your doing great! Thanks for sharing your build!

[Canadian818]

Sorry guys, been working 70-80hrs a week since jan 6th. I've only spent a few hours in the garage over the past few months. I've been working on prepping the engine to be reinstalled and make some mounts. I have block off plates for all the unwanted emmisions equipment, and an idler pully to replace the air pump. I'm also replacing the Mazda three plate and two plate secondary throttle bodies with a new GM 90mm drive by wire throttle body using a full function engineering adapter. I'll have the transmission adapter soon, if it works, I'll post all the details. I'm probably going to make some steel solid engine mounts, with whatever I can weld together in the garage and then give it to my buddy to CNC something in aluminum. I'm hoping to be able to use the mounting flanges on the car, so then I can offer some mounts.

The job I'm on will be ending soon, and it's not a great time to find work in the oil and gas industry. It'll be bittersweet, I'll get a lot done on the car, but might have to put off some purchases like wheels/tires and ecu. Either way, expect regular updates in about a month. Thanks for the interest!

Also, if any mods read this, is there a way to change my thread title to "Adam's 13b Rotary Powered Canadian 818-SR"? Thanks.

[Cbus]

Cool, thanks for the update Adam!

[Wayne Presley]

Also, if any mods read this, is there a way to change my thread title to "Adam's 13b Rotary Powered Canadian 818-SR"? Thanks.

Like this?

[Canadian818]

Like this?

Thanks Wayne

[Canadian818]

So after 17 days in a row working, the weather was bad enough to get an afternoon off so I headed home to the garage. Actually I stopped on the way home and bought some tools, its an addiction, I have a number of tools in the garage unopened. My name is Adam, and I have a problem.

So as always, I come with pictures. Some of these are very similar to my last pics, however with most of the wiring and emissions block off plates installed its much easier to see the clearances.

Had to do more trimming on the cast coolant tube.



Its now a clean cut out of the way, I'll weld a 90deg elbow on it pointing strait out from the engine. The little contraption below with wires and hoses going to it is the OMP(oil metering pump), it injects oil from the oil pan into the combustion chamber for lubrication. I'm pretty sure I'll be deleting it and pre-mixing with 2-stroke oil instead. Its a fairly common practice in the rotary world, and guarantees constant lubrication.



Here you can see the Pinenapple Racing idler pulley I installed. With the air pump removed its needed to maintain enough belt coverage on the water pump to prevent slippage at high RPM. I mounted a blank flange to the water pump that I'll be welding an elbow to, and trimmed the lifting lug off the alternator bracket.



In place, transmission mount bolted in and resting the oil pan on some blocks of wood. As you can see, lots of room to work with. Not sure where I'll mount the turbo yet, either low on the side of the engine, or back by the transmission. I'm leaning towards the back, it'll give me more room to route the wastegate dumps back in. Will also make the charge pipes shorter as the intercooler will be on the drivers side.



Front pic, water pump pipe might have to go 180deg up and over the top, or I'll have to re-modify my firewall.



Without unwrapping the body work, I'm confident that it'll clear if I keep it below the bars.

[Canadian818]

So as the engine sits its as low as the factory mounts will allow, with the oil pan still 1" above the floor. However its leaning forward about 8 degrees. I'm really not sure how critical the engine being level is. I'd imagine where the oil pickup is and pan design play a part in all that. I could mount the engine higher, but I'll probably run into body issues so I'm thinking I'll lower the transmission to correct the angle. By redesigning a mount, either solid, or poly, I should be able to drop it an inch.









Can anyone think of a reason I can't cut off this little nub on the transmission that sits just above the "X" in the frame?



I'm relieved my GM 90mm throttle body clears.



Any feedback is welcome, this is all new to me. The clearances are tight, and space is so limited for the engine mounts that I think it has to be solid mounts unless I hack off the frame mounts. I have friday off, so I hope to have some mounts fabricated then. I'll also have some weights on what I've taken off the engine, my guess is +50lbs including the twin turbo setup.

[Scargo]

Cool stuff! Don't know if it's been asked but do you see a significant weight savings by going with the rotary? How do they compare? Can you develop more or less torque than a Subie? I'm thinking of the capabilities of the five-speed.

[STiPWRD]

Excellent progress!

Can anyone think of a reason I can't cut off this little nub on the transmission that sits just above the "X" in the frame?

If you ever plan on taking the transmission apart, those nubs are a convenient place for hammering the case apart. But other than that, you should be fine with shaving them off.

Any feedback is welcome, this is all new to me. The clearances are tight, and space is so limited for the engine mounts that I think it has to be solid mounts unless I hack off the frame mounts.

Personally, I'd hack off the existing mounts and definitely make brackets that utilize some sort of vibration isolation in the mounts (non-solid). Without that, the engine will be transmitting all sorts of vibration and torque spikes into the frame, bolts, and other components. Just more wear and tear on everything.

[Canadian818]

Cool stuff! Don't know if it's been asked but do you see a significant weight savings by going with the rotary? How do they compare? Can you develop more or less torque than a Subie? I'm thinking of the capabilities of the five-speed.

Stock for stock I believe the 13b and EJ's are very close in weight, however there's just so much I've taken off. I'll weight everything I took off soon, and the engine once I seperate it to install the adapter. Power delivery/torque very much depends on the turbo. I'm seriously considering one of the smaller BW S300's, which at low boost will put me in the 3-350 range. I completely expect to destroy this transmission, but I want to get a feel for the car and shift points at the local track. I also want too see what kind of abuse Jeff's built 5spd can handle and the verity of lsds to be tested before deciding on what to use.

[Tamra]

We have the BW S200SX, 51mm (twin scroll), and put down 310whp at 15psi for a break in tune. They are really incredible turbos. One paired with a rotary would be awesome.

[Frank818]

Wow, it fits great! You are such a lucky guy. Tight up front, like me. But so much space on the sides! You can fit a pair of the world biggest car turbos! And have power starting at 7k. lolll

I'd cut off those engine mount brackets and make your own. Takes time, but you can fit the engine exactly like you need. And that is worth a lot more than time, I can tell ya that...

[Scargo]

Agree with Frank.

[Canadian818]

So I spent a few hours in the garage today, some progress.

This is as low as "practical" IMO for the 13b. I removed most of the chassis mounts and removed the rubber from the mazda mounts and installed them on the engine. The engine mounts are currently sitting on whats left of the chassis mount. The engine is within 1 degree of level side to side, and tilted 3 degrees forward. The pickup sits towards the front, so I figured some forward tilt is ok. I've also removed the previously mentioned "nub" on the bottom of the tranny and the transmission chassis mounting plate.

Disclaimer; You DO NOT need to cut any mounts to fit this engine. As you can see there is more than enough room to go a few inches higher, use an OEM tranny mount and either custom engine mounts or a wedge of rubber/urethane. I however like to take the path no one bothers to travel and am attempting to mount the engine/transmission as low as possible.







My oil pan is dented, and leaking. This is common with these, the bottom of the engine is open and flexes causing leaks. Most purchase a "oil pan brace" which is just a piece of steel or aluminum the same size as the gasket but between 5-10mm thick and "supports" the pan/engine. However, at the price of a new pan plus a brace I'm close enough to justify an Excessive cast aluminum oil pan. It takes an extra quart of oil and it is quite a bit thicker than the oem stamped steel pan. I'm going to order one this week, along with the pulley I should've ordered, it'll allow me to fit a elbow on the water pump facing down and out instead of up and around.





I picked up a digital level, so now I know how out my engine/transmission "plate" is. So I'll wait to finish my mounts until everything as arrived. In the meantime, I've been putting off swapping my wheel studs.

[Speedy G]

Man, I have engine envy, I'd forgotten about 13b's. You can make so much hp with that motor... My uncle had it tuned to over 500hp on pump gas with a single turbo. Redline was easily around 9000 rpm. I remember the first time I drove it I thought the speedo was in kph but it was really in mph, so I was doing 120mph and wondering why it felt so fast. That's how fast the thing accelerated. Very little vibration at high rpm. We took the rpm limiter off so the only way you knew it was over the limit was because there was a beep at 9000rpm.

Nice build! Definitely go single turbo. On this platform, even no boost will be alright. You could design it like an S2000 torque curve. Below 6000 rpm feels like a civic. Above it, feels like all hell broke loose. That would be extremely daily driveable. The car was extremely reliable and all we did was beat on it. The only thing that ever happened is that one of the 1000cc injectors got loose (not good but no fire, luckily).

[Canadian818]

Thanks Speedy G, I'm pretty excited about the rotary. I've never even driven a rotary powered car, so I have no idea what I'm in for. Ever since the first fast and the furious where they do the CGI thing through the engine and I was like WTF is that, I've been hooked. A lot of punch in a very little package. However its terrible for the environment, extremely loud, and gets terrible mileage, oh well..."Race Car!"

[Canadian818]

It's HERE!!!



Finally have my engine adapter. At first I was a little disappointing, seeing beautiful billet CNC'd adapters, I assumed I was getting a similar product for the money paid. It was clearly made on a mill, however the outside ring is really rough, almost like it was done by a grinding stone but the groves are perfectly linear. Also the aluminum seems to be of poor grade, there's a small "fisher" or "void" on the outside edge. I need to go to my buddy's shop tomorrow to do some aluminum welding, so I'll fill it. He might be able to machine the outside edge smooth, otherwise I'll use a belt sander.

The flywheel is kinda in the picture, its the same diameter as my subaru one, however I need to locate a different size clutch combo. i need a 225mm disc but with a smaller clutch cover with a bolt center measureing 254mm versus my oem 268mm. Might need A JDM clutch. more details here.

Made a phenolic spacer for my intake manifold. It's 3/4" thick, and separates the upper and lower manifolds. It's upstream of the injectors.





I did some porting on the intake manifold, so much so that I'll need to do a little welding in a few spots. I was expecting to, in order to achieve what I wanted to. All of this is because I'm going from the OEM mazda 3x45mm throttle body to the GM 90mm. I just traced to adapter and started porting. I think it should help a little.





Looky what I found in the oil pan...



No idea what its from, some filings too. Hopefully its just turbo bits from the broken turbo. Something tells me a engine rebuild is in my near future, dispite the seals/rotors/housings looking good.

Sorry about the picture quality, its a good camera but it sucks on close ups. I need to play with its settings.

I have some parts coming this week, lots of progress soon.

[Niburu]

post more dammit man

[Mechie3]

Finally have my engine adapter. At first I was a little disappointing, seeing beautiful billet CNC'd adapters, I assumed I was getting a similar product for the money paid. It was clearly made on a mill, however the outside ring is really rough, almost like it was done by a grinding stone but the groves are perfectly linear. Also the aluminum seems to be of poor grade, there's a small "fisher" or "void" on the outside edge. I need to go to my buddy's shop tomorrow to do some aluminum welding, so I'll fill it. He might be able to machine the outside edge smooth, otherwise I'll use a belt sander.

My money says laser or plasma cut. A lot of my parts are laser cut for production since if they were cnc'd my cost would be the same as what I charge for lasered pieces. I don't get anything thicker than 1/4" laser cut since the quality drops off quickly. 1/4" and under and my tumbler can remove most of the lines you're talking about.

[Canadian818]

It took quite awhile to get here. Very little time has been spent on the car. I recently purchased the welding truck I was renting, and most of my time off between jobs was getting it in tip top shape. Put on 6 new tires, replaced a few sensors, shocks, brakes, axle seals, steering links, made a intake, installed much needed Hid's, changed all fluids/filters, and added a boost gauge. Also did some tweaking and modifying of the welding skid. She's an old girl, 358k Kms (222k Miles), but the 7.3's are tough.





Back to the 818...



I had the adapter plate outer edge machined smooth, looks much better now. I gave up trying to find a clutch to match the holes in the flywheel, all I could find was a 90's FWD clutch that was pull type which wouldn't work. So I had the dowel pins removed, new holes drilled and tapped and new dowel pins installed so my OEM clutch could be installed. I don't intend to run this clutch for long, but I want to make sure everything works before wrecking a $500 HD clutch.



It felt so good sliding on the transmission. The dowel pin and input shaft aligned perfectly and it just fell in place, effortlessly. Very rewarding. In this pic you can also see my Racing Beat stainless steel exhaust flange. Not sure when I'll get to building a manifold, but I knew I'd need it eventually so I added it to an order.



Small issue with the starter, it doesn't fit. You can see the small hole for the gear to fit, and the massive housing that surrounds my 06 starter. A little searching on rock auto has revealed that a early 90's EJ22 manual starter should work. I'll pick one up tomorrow.

[Canadian818]

Here you can see my new pulley setup. Underdriven crank pulley, pineapple racing BT idler pulley, and a new water pump. My coolant adapter is a little close to the frame. It's only welded on the inside, so it'd be easy to rotate it if need be. I'll wait until my motor mounts are done before I decide.



This is how I modified my water pump housing for the other line. It routes nicely under the crank, but I had to delete the oil metering pump. I was probably going to anyway, it makes me nervous not knowing if its working properly, so I'll be running 2 stroke oil in the tank. This will also allow me to run synthetic oil in the engine.

[Flamshackle]

Here you can see my new pulley setup. Underdriven crank pulley, pineapple racing BT idler pulley, and a new water pump. My coolant adapter is a little close to the frame. It's only welded on the inside, so it'd be easy to rotate it if need be. I'll wait until my motor mounts are done before I decide.



This is how I modified my water pump housing for the other line. It routes nicely under the crank, but I had to delete the oil metering pump. I was probably going to anyway, it makes me nervous not knowing if its working properly, so I'll be running 2 stroke oil in the tank. This will also allow me to run synthetic oil in the engine.

Awesome work, can't wait to see the finished article.

[Frank818]

Did you also purchase the reservoir and full of fuel at the same time? Could be handy for... uhm, a lifetime!!!! lolll

It is a lot of work fitting a non-WRX engine, hey? But the finished product will be well worth it!
Your engine is so small, it doesn't take much space, it's incredible!

I don't understand your synthetic oil thing, you can run synthetic any time, no need to perform mods, what's different about the rotary then?

[Wayne Presley]

A rotary engine is essentially a 2 stroke motor so it injects a small quantity of oil in the intake charge to lubricate the rotors and apex seals. The synthetic motor oil doesn't burn like a dino oil

[metalmaker12]

Love it brother, good work. Now I gotta fit an s2000 setup

[Canadian818]

A rotary engine is essentially a 2 stroke motor so it injects a small quantity of oil in the intake charge to lubricate the rotors and apex seals. The synthetic motor oil doesn't burn like a dino oil

What he said. However now I'm not injecting oil from the pan into the engine so I can run synthetic. The combustion chamber will be lubricated by oil mixed in the fuel. This is what Mazda did with their rotary race engines back in the day. It's just not practical for daily drivers, and then there's the smell, lol.