FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

[C.Plavan]

Plastic Kitchen trash bags with PAM sprayed inside the bag is the Bee's Knees. Save your cash.

[Scargo]

Plastic Kitchen trash bags with PAM sprayed inside the bag is the Bee's Knees. Save your cash.

I suspect it would work well and you have a vegetable oil that won't eat the trash bag.
I just bought a box of polypropylene trash bags so kerosene wouldn't dissolve them. Those I could use with any oil. Come to think of it a large zip-lock bag would be impervious to any oil or grease.
Nifty idea!

[turbomacncheese]

I'm gonna end up leaving one on the floor and hit it cartoon-banana-peel-style. Wait a minute, what about a banana peel IN a ziploc bag?

[Scargo]

My garage floor has close to a one in ten slope, I would assume, like most home garages. The problem with all these "plastic and oil" kind of solutions is that unless you use something like a cookie sheet with a rim on the bottom... wait, wait... a Teflon coated cookie sheet!..., then you run the risk of the car sliding off the pads if under all four wheels at the same time. I do use shims to level my cars but they still move around. A smooth flat base is important. Most garage floors won't cut it.

[Hindsight]

Glyn, I never have all four on grease plates... just two at a time. Very easy to switch them front to back, and most times you are just working on the front anyway. V rare that you need to mess with rear toe, which is all you'd need them for.

[FFRSpec72]

Dry sump going in

20161203_132224.jpg 20161203_131426.jpg

Muffler on to keep away the decibel police at the track

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[Frank818]

Tony, you had to cut the OEM rod ends for your DIY no-drilling bumpsteer kit?

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, you had to cut the OEM rod ends for your DIY no-drilling bumpsteer kit?

No I did not.

[Hindsight]

Looks like a lot of winter projects Tony. I'll be interested to see how the dry sump works.

[Frank818]

Update on the bump steer and spindle adapters, both are installed, I did take the rod end studs to a machine shop to mill off a slight amount as the angle/taper was not exact, but it will work, I just wanted to be 100% sure I don't have issues on the track. Also I used the 5.5" sleeves and the 3.5" may be better, so I updated the links to the 3.5.

Attachment 61591 Attachment 61592 Attachment 61593 Attachment 61594

I don't understand what you did here. You removed a slight amount of the rod end?

[FFRSpec72]

I don't understand what you did here. You removed a slight amount of the rod end?

The only change is to use a 3.5 inch sleeve and not a 5.5 inch sleeve as that will give you more adjustability, the rod ends don't have to be cut, nothing is cut or drilled

[FFRSpec72]

Mirror upgrade time, went with SPA GT mirrors, and friend adapted (welded) the mirror base to the aluminum tube mounts I had, the body is too shaky to hold the side mirrors

20161204_143623.jpg

[Frank818]

Nice trick! Easier on the R, though.

[FFRSpec72]

Had to use 5mm spacers to keep tires away from ball joint with the updated spindle adapters, should have some great camber now

20161206_18545.jpg

[FFRSpec72]

Dry sump installed, lines run, now to prime it and try to start it

20161206_181944.jpg20161206_184027.jpg 20161207_190936.jpg 20161207_190926.jpg

20161207_191042.jpg

[C.Plavan]

Had to use 5mm spacers to keep tires away from ball joint with the updated spindle adapters, should have some great camber now

20161206_18545.jpg

You might want to take some camber out. Be careful. There will still be tire deflection up that high, plus the suspension movement (bushing compression and shock angular travel). Also check max turning side to side- It will only take a couple of hits with a Dot R tire to rip through the Ball Joint boot. You don't want to ruin a weekend at the track. -2.5 to was the sweet spot for for my tires temps up front.

[Frank818]

Nice looking tire.

Tony where did you get your corrugated 3"-look-alike ducts?

I see you have the same brakes as I do, how do you like them?

[FFRSpec72]

Nice looking tire.

Tony where did you get your corrugated 3"-look-alike ducts?

I see you have the same brakes as I do, how do you like them?

yea a lot of crap on the tires as my last session I had to put it in the infield and thus all the crap on the tires, the brake duct feeds the intercooler from the side scoops. The brakes are great I have been using Carbotech XP10 compound, same as I use on my challenge car, and stops very well

[Zach34]

-2.5 to was the sweet spot for for my tires temps up front.

Was that front and rear? Great to have that starting point. Thanks!

[C.Plavan]

Was that front and rear? Great to have that starting point. Thanks!

-3.0 rear is where I settled at.

[FFRSpec72]

I am getting a new firewall built (between seat and fuel cell) so that the tech inspection folks don't continue to tell me to do so, Tom Ryon (same person that made the mirror mounts and the dry sump tank mounts) is doing the work, he has been helping out on the dry sump and etc., one of the best welder's I have seen, and a great fabricator and great FFR builder ! So we will see how this turns out and if the tech folks will stop complaining.

[Zach34]

What was the problem with your firewall? I did a quick search on the thread but couldn't find the back-story.

[Mitch Wright]

Tony, yes details on the firewall?

[Frank818]

Tony, what do you think of 3-piece high-strength half-weight aluminum rod ends for the same price as steel ones for steering application?

[Mitch Wright]

Frank, not on the suspension IMO

[Frank818]

Tnx Mitch.

[FFRSpec72]

I would also not use aluminum on a tie rod end,

The issue with my firewall is that I did not have anything between the fuel cell and the seat, the tech inspectors said that I needed one, I said there are no rules that say I do, so we went around about this and concluded that I would put one in to satisfy both SCCA and ICSCC even though there are no rules. Hopefully it will turn out nice and I will be glad that I did it.

[Mechie3]

I wouldn't use aluminum either. Steel has an endurance limit of about 1/2 at 1 million cycles (meaning at 1mil cycles, the material still has 1/2 its original strength). Aluminum has no endurance limit. Maybe on a dedicated race car that had a specific maintenance schedule setup and inspection pre/post race/event and the extra weight meant an edge where money was on the line. People sometimes forget that cars like Indycar use disposable parts. Very, very, expensive disposable parts. Aluminum is also more prone to fatigue fracture and cracks.

[DanielsDM]

Tony,
The requirements as I understand them (an I'm not a NASA or SCCA tech inspector) is that there must be a physical barrier between the fuel container and driver compartment. You have a bladder type fuel cell inside a metal tank (correct), thus the bladder is the fuel container and the tank provides the barrier. The connection fittings, filler tube etc.. must also be separated from the driver's compartment. I don't remember how you finished the filler tube and connections, are they in the cockpit? Is that what the inspector had issue with?
I'm taking a slightly different approach: I have a custom built FIA approved bladder without a metal tank. The FFR firewall, along with sheeting on the rear bulkhead and inner sides will form the enclosure for the bladder. The formed multi-piece FFR firewall will be welded together to one piece, as well as a fabbed sheet metal piece that encloses the filler tube and access plate. It is essentially the same way both of Davidson Racing's cars were done so I'm not anticipating any inspection issues but I would like to know exactly what problems the inspector had with your setup.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony,
The requirements as I understand them (an I'm not a NASA or SCCA tech inspector) is that there must be a physical barrier between the fuel container and driver compartment. You have a bladder type fuel cell inside a metal tank (correct), thus the bladder is the fuel container and the tank provides the barrier. The connection fittings, filler tube etc.. must also be separated from the driver's compartment. I don't remember how you finished the filler tube and connections, are they in the cockpit? Is that what the inspector had issue with?
I'm taking a slightly different approach: I have a custom built FIA approved bladder without a metal tank. The FFR firewall, along with sheeting on the rear bulkhead and inner sides will form the enclosure for the bladder. The formed multi-piece FFR firewall will be welded together to one piece, as well as a fabbed sheet metal piece that encloses the filler tube and access plate. It is essentially the same way both of Davidson Racing's cars were done so I'm not anticipating any inspection issues but I would like to know exactly what problems the inspector had with your setup.

I am using a Harmon Racing cell with a internal bladder, FIA approved, so the bladder has an aluminum casing around this, the cell has the AN fittings for vent, return and fuel and the fuel fill (this has a fuel fill hose to outside of car behind the engine firewall I have), these are in the cockpit area and this is what they were complaining about and I can't really isolate the vent, return and fuel without inclosing the whole fuel cell as the cell goes the width of the car. I really don't get this as rules allow you have a dry sump tank in the cockpit w/o any protection.

[FFRSpec72]

Here is my current setup w/o firewall, Tom just installed the lower half, now has to fabricate an upper half

20161206_184313.jpg

[C.Plavan]

NASA rules state a Barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.


Looking at the above picture- For safety- You may want to think about putting rubber grommets on the rear firewall holes where the fuel lines go through.

[FFRSpec72]

NASA rules state a Barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.


Looking at the above picture- For safety- You may want to think about putting rubber grommets on the rear firewall holes where the fuel lines go through.

I read that and it is a SHOULD, not a MUST or SHALL thus it is optional and that is why I press them on this

[C.Plavan]

I read that and it is a SHOULD, not a MUST or SHALL thus it is optional and that is why I press them on this

Lol
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/should
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/shall

[FFRSpec72]

Lol
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/should
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/shall

Not how documents are written, all FIA documents use the ISO standards, and you can search ISO for the definition of terms here, and should = ought to, whereas shall = mandatory, as this avoids everyone's interpretation if shall, must, should, etc.

See https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#search

Also see SCCA

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.

[Mitch Wright]

Tony in all my years of racing the firewall between the cell or tank has really not changed much if any, which is why the tech guys want to see a firewall separating the cell from the driver. Looks to me to be an easy fix with your cell set up, it is really no different to what Chad and I had to do.
fuel cell 2.JPGFuel cell firewall II.JPGFuel Cell firewall.JPG

[FFRSpec72]

Tony in all my years of racing the firewall between the cell or tank has really not changed much if any, which is why the tech guys want to see a firewall separating the cell from the driver. Looks to me to be an easy fix with your cell set up, it is really no different to what Chad and I had to do.
fuel cell 2.JPGFuel cell firewall II.JPGFuel Cell firewall.JPG

I am doing that now, but there is no regulation that says I MUST do this, I'm doing it to avoid the hassle I have received when I was getting a log book, as I don't want to go through the hassle each year on the annual tech inspection. I just hate doing things that are not written. I also don't know why they allow a dry sump tank in the cockpit and that does not have to be behind a firewall as a fuel cell has technology to keep fuel from coming out in a roll over or crash, the dry sump tanks have none, and I can tell you most of the fires I have seen on the track are because of oil not fuel (blown engines/rears/trans).

[Mitch Wright]

I understand and agree with you and really surprised that an oil tank is allowed with out a fire wall as well. I was will SCCA Pro for 10 years writing rules for World Challenge and Trans Am, in both cases a firewall is required for the reasons you have stated.

[Mitch Wright]

I understand and agree with you and really surprised that an oil tank is allowed with out a fire wall as well. I was with SCCA Pro for 10 years writing rules for World Challenge and Trans Am, in both cases a firewall is required for the reasons you have stated.

[Zach34]

I get where you're coming from on the verbiage. In some segments of military publications, "should" denotes something that is only strongly recommended (i.e. - you better follow it unless you have a good reason not to), and "shall" denotes something that must be done or adhered to no matter what. However, those terms are always defined in their specific use up front. NASA could probably change the wording here, but it's clear what their intent is, even though it says "should" - a firewall must be installed.

I mean really, think if you had a fuel leak at one of the fittings. If it ignites, you probably won't notice it until something on your body is on fire - not going to be able to pull the fire extinguisher fast enough - unless you have a firewall.