I've never seen a tap like this result in a flip in a closed wheel car. Amazing.
Make sure you pass the broomstick test!
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I've never seen a tap like this result in a flip in a closed wheel car. Amazing.
Make sure you pass the broomstick test!
Just Posted up on You Tube:
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
In slo mo you can see his front tire climb the back of the other cars tire just like an open wheel car would. Just a freak combo where the body work on both cars
wadded up and let the tires come together. ALWAYS a good idea to pass the broomstick test in any car with a cage.
DB
Good thing it wasn't on fire as he was struggling with the window net and it appeared that the safety crew had to help extricate him. Nice easy rollover and the cage held up well. I've been in more violent ones and the cars didn't look this good and neither did I.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Yes, passing the broomstick test is a necessity for any car going on a track. On our cars the test needs to be done with the stick resting on the lower front hoop and the main hoop (obviously). We did quite a bit of work to get the seating position low enough for a 6' driver to pass.
818R Build date 10/31/15
Those cup cars have full cages... better than the 818R has. I really want to add a full cage to my 818. Costs about $1200-$1500 though. However, with a full cage, you won't have the issue of the side bar going right next to your head (which only presents a problem if you drive it without a helmet, like on the street).
Thanks- Chad
818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)
At Pacific Raceways is seems like we flip a car every race weekend, sometimes 2-3 cars. They either roll a 360 or end up on the roof. We talk about what to do when you end up on the roof and the general consensus is not to do anything unless you're on fire. It's best to wait for the emergency crew to help get you down. Hard to do if you panic and are hanging upside down! We've had worse injuries from drivers popping their seatbelt release and falling on their heads hurting their necks than any injuries from the roll over itself.
Question, I've never worn arm restraints, can you get your hands high enough over your head to let yourself down safely if you're hanging upside down when wearing arm restraints? Don't you have to release the main seat belt buckle to release the arm restraints? Actually thinking about it in most any open top car like an 818R your head is going to be almost on the ground (and hopefully not dug a burrow in the ground), so dropping out of the harness is not as big a deal as dropping 5" out of a sedan.
Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 04-30-2017 at 03:55 PM.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Another real life test. I wish the 818 in general, and the R in particular, came with a taller roll bar from the factory.
Sebastian Flip 1.jpgSebastian Flip 2.jpgSebastian Flip 3.jpgSebastian Flip 4.jpg
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
It's amazing that at the speed he hit the wall that he only broke his hip and pelvis.
Ditto for the 33. I've been upside down in a Jeep on an incline and it is very disorienting. It gets hard to breathe depending on harness type and also the latch releases can be bound up or you just forget which way was open. I also was hanging from a 3 inch lap belt with a D6 on its nose once. I had nothing I could reach (no steering wheel on a dozer) that wouldn't make it worse (hydraulics) and the pressure on the latch took both hands to get loose so I could hurt myself hitting the cage. Can't imagine doing that at 231mph in an open wheel car!!
I will have to check next time I am in my car, I am thinking that I might be able to get my hands to maybe to my eye level.
I saw this pic on Facebook. Don't know who it is but I don't think he passes the broomstick test. The R needs a taller main hoop or a lower seating position. I tilted the seat back to 20 degrees and sacrificed some leg room.
818R Build date 10/31/15
14612494_1393494357342548_8027276845775000715_o.jpg
Meh. Close enough right?
I'd love to meet the track "official" that let someone run like that.
It's by far my biggest pet peeve of the FFR community that fun too often seems to trump safety. I remember when that picture was first posted on here it was high fives and hand shakes all around to congratulate him on hitting the track the first time. Not a single "hey - that's kinda dangerous" or "you probably shouldn't do that again." I suppose I'm guilty myself on this one, I just hate always having to be the negative nancy in the room.
Last edited by phil1734; 05-22-2017 at 07:11 PM.
I'm well below in the 818R. I'm 5'10" with a 31" inseam.
Wayne Presley www.verycoolparts.com
Xterminator 705 RWHP supercharged 4.6 DOHC with twin turbos
mitch car.jpg
When building my car I made sure I easily made the broom stick test. Now I am a massive 5'8.
That's about where I am in mine. When I look to the left I'm looking under the diagonal bar, also 5'8. I haven't poured my seat insert yet, but I may have to add foam to the bottom so I can see over the dash. Our 6' driver still clears the broomstick (placed on the main hoop and the front hoop, not the hood or windscreen) with more than 2" to spare.
818R Build date 10/31/15
We had to fix at the track by mounting the seat off the rails, then took it back to the shop and removed the horizontal bar at the seat base and made special side seat mounts to put the base of the seat right on the alum floor. My a$$ is now 2.5" off the road....life is good.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
YES!!!
Picking up the block on the way back from Portland next weekend, then its scramble to put it all back together for Spokane.
Wayne, could you please share how you mounted your seat to get it so low? We're having a real problem with this. Thanks.
IMG_1436.JPG
Our HALO seat is actually below the angle side bar, can't go any lower as the bottom of the seat touches the under floor aluminum, but, you have to cut and weld to make it happen.
Drivers seat mount plates.JPGSeat Pic 1.JPGSeat pic2.JPG
This is how I mounted mine, might find helpful. I welded the nuts on the bottom of the seat mount frame mount to make it easy take the seat mounts on and off.
Last edited by Mitch Wright; 05-27-2017 at 08:51 AM.
We removed the X's below the seats and replaced with plate that is flush to the bottom of the frame and fabbed new mounts. Allows the seat to drop almost an inch.
See our thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...DanielsDM-818R
818R Build date 10/31/15
I brought my new to me 818R home (Brando's Build) and did the broomstick test with a fellow 818R builder who lurks here, whom I shall refer to as Mr. Smith. It failed miserably! If I were to keep the same seat (Kirkey with Kirkey foam liner) at the same mounting point I would have to raise the rear hoop by 4", or raise the front hoop by 3" and the rear by 2.5" . And even Mr.Smith failed the test, and he's about 5"7. I'm 6'3".
Thanks to everyone who've posted solutions here, I'm going over them in detail now because this is nowhere near safe. I don't know how Brando got this car on track anywhere unless the tech inspectors were asleep at the wheel. He and I are the same height.
Retro I hope to get a close look at how you did yours next weekend at the Enduro.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Let's sit you in the car to see. If you don't fit in ours, I think we are in bar raising mode, cause we are on the floor!
I'll send you a PM, need to know if you guys need a room for the enduro, as we pick that up, and give you a tentative schedule for Friday pit practice, Saturday race.
Floor mount Racetech seat with their super low cushion they sell. I had about 2 inch clearance. Still did not feel safe- Especially with that dumb 2" open square bar that will collapse....
Thanks- Chad
818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)
Off topic, but I wondered what class the 818's usually run in.
I see the white one shows EM, which I assume is Economy Modified? Are they all run in that class?
NASA ST2 or 3 and a NA car might make ST4.
Gator I don't believe you will get there if you have the tank behind the seat. Like Chad I installed a fuel cell in the passengers seat area. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post220522
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post189768
Kirkey Seat photos http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post192994
With me in the car, I am only 5'8" so you have 7 inches on me http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post257011
Last edited by Mitch Wright; 10-04-2017 at 01:30 PM.
EM is E-Modified, which is the SCCA Solo class the 818 runs in. (Though technically, if you have any aero you should be A-mod.)
I have the kirkeys mounted directly to the floor x-brace. Same as Bob 'n Cincy I believe. I'm 5'11" and my helmet clears the stock bar on the S/C, but not by much.
IMG_0411.jpg
As others have said, everyone's torso is different, so it's possible that two people the same height may not both fit.
Strangely enough, according to the SCCA solo rule book you only need to pass the broomstick test if you have a racing harness. A standard 3-point OEM seatbelt allows so much movement it's assumed you'll flop into the car enough to save your neck (literally.) This doesn't mean it's a good idea, applicable to full on track days, or other sanctioning bodies.
Last edited by phil1734; 10-04-2017 at 01:47 PM.
In Corvettes they cut the floor and drop the rear portion bottom of the seat thru it! For real. Jeremiah has a camper on his pickup but I'm not sure he'll be bring it, at The Ridge he developed a major leak that soaked his bed. So probably yes on the room for Friday night.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Pretty sure Brando only ran in HPDE - with plans on doing a series but never ended up in one. HPDE days are pretty lax about broomstick test, depending on where you are.
Anyway, with an ultra thin seat with almost no cushion, mounted as low as possible, I didn't pass. I cut out my roll bar and welded in a taller one. Wasn't that big a deal. I had a local fab shop bend the main hoop to my specs and just used an Eastwood tubing notcher and a metal chop saw to fab the rest. Used a MIG welder to weld it in. You could take that opportunity to close up the ends of the square steel frame tube, while you are at it.
I think most series require an un-interrupted tube for the main hoop. Simply hacking off the top and welding on an extension above the beltline would be a no-go.
you have to install the nerf bar, one on top of the main hoop to pass. Our cross brace is cut out and the side mount seat countersinks into the side bars so that it touches the alum on the floor of the car. Our fuel cell is in the passenger seat, we still have some room to lean the seat back for a little more clearance, but don't need it. I think I am about 2" under the broom stick now, at 5'9" with 30" inseam.......yes, easier to go over than around.
Except that we don't have an uninterrupted main hoop tube that goes from the belly pan frame all the way around to the other belly pan/frame. Our roll bar tube starts at the on the top of the frame at seated shoulder height, you can look inside the open square tube and see the hoop doesn't pass thru it. So there's no reason you can't cut it off there and weld on a taller hoop. This is about all the SCCA has to say on that subject of the Main Hoop: "If the hoop does not go to the belly pan, proper gussets and tube triangulation shall be used under its attachment." Kind of nebulous about what is "proper". We do have frame triangulation under it, I'm not sure the hoop tube passes the test for gussets though. I can see an inspector saying no, you need to get an SCCA Homolagation certificate for this car from SCCA HQ TECH. That's what they did to my Palatov D4 because the design was different from they've seen.
The fore/aft braces have to be cut off too and new longer ones made because the OEM ones will be too far down on the new hoop to pass the rules on that distance.
"Roll Cage Bracing
1. The main hoop must have 2 forward braces extending from the hoop and attached to the frame, monocoque, or front hoop. Braces must be attached as near as possible to the top of the hoop but must not be more than 6 inches below the top and at an included angle of at least 30 degrees."
The forward braces are at 6" now, so they have to be redone too.
As for the hoop resting on the open square tube - I don't know if that could pass a SCCA load calculation. I've become familiar with that because I'm applying for a SCCA Homologation on my Palatov D4 and it's a bear! "The roll bar must be capable of withstanding the following stress loading applied simultaneously to the top of the roll bar: 1.5 (X) laterally, 5.5 (X) longitudinally in both the fore and aft directions, and 7.5 (X) vertically, where (X) = the minimum weight of the car." That would be 15,000 vertical pounds pushing the roll bar into the square tube. Would it crush down? I don't know, I'd like to see a sample square tube frame and roll bar tested in an instrumented press. It probably wouldn't crush more than 1 1/4" until it hit the top of the chassis frame though.
Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 10-04-2017 at 06:57 PM.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Well if you apply the 5.5(x) load simultaneously in both the fore and aft directions it cancels out!
No matter what it sounds like a major PITA for a car that's designed specifically for track use. All because they didn't want to add in an extra ~20 inches of round tube for the 30 or so R chassis they've sold. Roll hoop height aside, I'm sure if it doesn't pass SCCA specs everyone would have much rather paid FFR the extra $250 or whatever the cost would be to fit that tube properly. And it'd be safer to boot.
Agreed Phil. A big first start would be for FF to settle the open square tube issue once and for all by applying for a SCCA Homologation Certificate for the frame. https://www.scca.com/pages/homologation-form-downloads
It only costs $100. Once homologated an owner can use that certificate at every track in the country. Even NASA will accept the SCCA Homologation as proof the frame is safe. If the SCCA turns it down, FF can work with them to redesign the frame to pass. The bonus for FF is that they can use the homolgation as a marketing advantage that their frames are homologated! The downside I can see them having is that if it doesn't pass they may have to issue a repair order for all the R frames with instructions on how to fix the issue.
The only issue would then be if an owner mods the hoop to raise it higher, then that owner will have to re-apply for a new certificate. That is not a trivial application, you have to supply engineering drawings, and preferably FEA analysis. In my case with the Palatov, I had the Palatov factory make the mods to raise the roll bar height, then supply all the engineering documents to the SCCA for homolgation.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
I wasn't there, but yesterday at Oregon Raceway Park where I instruct:
The driver is Bill Murray, chief instructor, part owner of ORP, and racer for almost as many years as I have been alive! In his words from the Facebook post:
William D. Murray: "Clockwise turn 7, flat out still rotating as the track drops away , right rear off driver's right. Had time to think that "this could the rollover I've always talked about". Left the track leading with the right quarter, tripped in the dirt and went over one and a half revolutions. When the dust cleared the light was coming in through the passenger window, so that's the one I went out of. As many times as I have done this it has always been disorienting. I don't plan on practicing it enough to get good at it. I have given this lecture often enough at least I knew the steps."
Thank the Lord he's OK and there was no fire in that bone dry wheat field.
The full posting: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 04-22-2018 at 10:51 AM.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
From Winding Road Racing:
"Some of the best drivers in the country run MX-5 Cup. As an indication, Mazda recently hosted a special MX-5 Cup Challenge event at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, and many top MX-5 Cup series drivers showed up ($75k to win will do that) along with IMSA prototype, international GT and Indy Lights champions. The MX-5 Cup series drivers dominated."
Another example of the RLBT in MX5 Cup cars just posted, and this one is pretty scary! Thankfully Bryan Ortiz is ok.
Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 10-22-2017 at 09:43 AM.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer