Testing potential upgrades begins

[Jim Schenck]

The testing of possible combinations for upgrading the challenge series for 2012 was started last weekend at VIR. This first test involved an entire engine upper end package from Trick Flow as well as an upgraded front suspension with new geometry and a front anti-roll bar. The front brakes were also uprgraded to handle the added power as well.

Upgrades tested:
Trickflow top end package: TFS-K514-360350B with the intake swapped for an "R Series"
7/8" front anti-roll bar
FFR MKIV front spindles
1994-1998 Mustang Cobra front brakes
3:27 rear axle ratio
Larger Mass Air/Throttle/Injectors

This is a package very similiar to the one used to win the 2007 NASA ST2 National chapionship by Tony Buffamonte. (He had Brembo fron Calipers and double adjustable shocks as well)

Testing Summary:

Installation: Intallation time for this test was very rushed as we had just returned from Mid-Ohio the prior weekend. As soon as we pulled in to Factory Five on Monday night we unloaded the car and immediately began tearing down the engine and front suspension. The top-end switchover included a cam change so the balancer and timing cover had to be removed along with the oil pan. Other than a leak from the pan gasket being rushed the entire swap went smoothly and the engine fired up right away with a new Mass air meter and 24lb injectors but no changes to the factory compluter.

The front suspension also went together relatively easy once the updated MKIV style upper arm mount was welded into place, this was the only fabrication required in the changeover. The anti-roll bar was designed to be a bolt on and with some minor tweaks to the brackets and a change to longer lower shock bolts it bolted right up to the front of the main frame rails. (it is high enough to clear the tie down hooks on newer cars).

After some minor set up work, timing and fuel pressure were set conservatively, aligmnent, and hitting the scales the car was loaded back on the truck on Wed to head down to VIR.

Friday at the track was planned for sorting the car out while John George ran Ed Boothman's car in the Grassroots Motorsports Ultimate Track Car Challenge. Most of Friday was spent chasing gremlins as the oil pan gasket was leaking rather obscenely and the data acq system was not allowing the car to get past 5000 rpm. We ended up losing 3 of the 4 sessions friday getting the pan gasket replaced and chasing the engine miss but by Saturday morning we were back in buisiness and ready for testing.

Our weekend testing sessions were run in the Time Trials group with NASA, probably a mistake since the sessions are very short and we were being cautious to not interfere with people when they were on their hot laps. However we were able to get some very good first impressions and comparisons as well as figure out what still needs time sorting out.

Notes and observations from the test:

Weather was very hot and humid, low 100s, but my oem 1996 Mustang radiator was still enough to cool with the higher HP.
Spring rates were left at 750/525 to start, with the sway bar this gave some push but not a lot, try lowering to 700 front for next round
Brake pedal was harder due to smaller caliper volume. Effort was still acceptable but for a car already on the high side a smaller master would be better
Brake bias needed more adjustment but was also very close, possibly use just a bit more front bias.
Tested 2:73 gears and 3:27s (in second car with same engine combo) 2:73s do not work well with higher rpm power peak. 3:27s worked well even on the long VIR backstraight and we did not run out of rpm.
Overall balance of the car felt very similiar, coming out of corners was the same just instead of having to shift at 5000 rpm that is where the car really took off.
Top speeds on the long straights went up by about 6-8mph from 128-129 to around 136
Sound of the car was completely different, even at the same rpms there was more of a growl, at 6000 rpm it was even better
Did not get to dyno but did race the 85 car (320 hp at the wheels) down the backstraight and cars ran just about identical
Still need to dial in the outer tie rod height (shims or spacers) as there was some roll steer that needs to be dialed out.

Summary: Overall we could have used more time but it was a good first test. The car is much quicker down the straights but the power does not change the overall balance. Lap times were 3-4 seconds quicker than we were at the same event last year (very similiar conditions) but with more testing there is likely at least 1 more second worth of time to come. Most of this from dialing in the brake bias and tweeking the spring rates. Also the engine was tuned very conservatively because we did not have time to get an air fuel reading so fuel pressure was set at 52 and timing at 14. The 3:27 gears also made the car much more fun than the 2:73s.

Overall the test was a success and all 3 drivers who drove it thought it was a marked improvement from the current configuration.

[FFRSpec72]

Interesting, so now some questions;

1. Did the noise level change, are we going to have an issue at tracks we did not have issues before?
2. Any reason not to go with Cobra rear rotors?
3. I assume that the SN95 spindles will work as well as the FFR spindles and be a little easier to install and would be an option?
4. Did you install the whole trick flow package (cam, timing chain, heads, rockers, etc.) or selective parts? Will the normal EFI valve covers fit on the TF heads with the rockers?
5. Max RPM (as I don’t go over 5800 now)
6. New MAF or recalibrated MAF?
7. New or used injectors?
8. Was the cam degreed?
9. Carbotech pads?
10. Change in fuel consumption?
11. Running FFR air dam?
12. Variable fuel pressure regulator?
13. Any changes to fuel cell fuel pump?
14. Any machine work required to heads before install?

$2500 may be on the high side for a top end package but sounds like a well sorted out package

[FFSpecRacer]

Tony,

I've addressed your questions below and Jim can chime in when he gets the chance. Please realize this is only informational at this point and anything has the possibility to change before the final rules are approved.

Also note that the Trickflow top end package Jim mentioned in his post is the current package they sell. Our final package may and probably will be slightly different. Like substituting the R-intake over the Track Heat intake.

Interesting, so now some questions;

1. Did the noise level change, are we going to have an issue at tracks we did not have issues before?
Jim did mention to me that it is louder and possibly will have to be dealt with at tracks with noise limits.
2. Any reason not to go with Cobra rear rotors?
We believe the current rears will be sufficient. This is a place to save some money. This could change but is the current thought.
3. I assume that the SN95 spindles will work as well as the FFR spindles and be a little easier to install and would be an option?
Currently we are not looking at making the SN95 an option. The SN95 would require purchasing and SAI kit from a second vendor. We are looking at single point of purchase option.
4. Did you install the whole trick flow package (cam, timing chain, heads, rockers, etc.) or selective parts? Will the normal EFI valve covers fit on the TF heads with the rockers?
I'll leave this for Jim to verify but I think he did cam, rockers, heads, intake, and valve covers.
5. Max RPM (as I don’t go over 5800 now)
The track heat heads and R-intake top out around 6000. Computer redlines at 6250.
6. New MAF or recalibrated MAF?
New MAF
7. New or used injectors?
New 24lb injectors
8. Was the cam degreed?
More than likely straight up.
9. Carbotech pads?
yes for the test, but will remain open
10. Change in fuel consumption?
I'm sure it will change but no data currently.
11. Running FFR air dam?
I don't believe Jim was running one.
12. Variable fuel pressure regulator?
We already allow adjustable regulators. This will not change.
13. Any changes to fuel cell fuel pump?
No change to this rule.
14. Any machine work required to heads before install?
Heads are bolt on.

$2500 may be on the high side for a top end package but sounds like a well sorted out package

[Jim Schenck]

1. Yes the car was louder, tracks where we were close to the limit could require some extra muffling now
2. Just cost
3. SN95 spindles will bolt on but are at a pretty big disadvantage geometry wise.
4. Trickflow will taylor the package to our use, I used everything in it except the timing chain. Stock Mustang covers will not clear the rockers so I used the provided Trickflow ones.
5. Rev limiter is 6250 with stock computer, I used 6000-6200 as a shift point
6. New Maf calibrated for 24lb injectors (OEM Maf is too restrictive at 55mm diameter)
7. New Injectors
8. Stock timing chain so cam timing was left stock and I did not check it with a degree wheel
9. Carbotech 10s in front 12s in rear
10. Based on our experience with the #85 I would estimate we are going from 10 gallons per hour to 12 but it is very track dependant
11. I was not
12. Yes, set at 52 psi until I can get to the dyno
13. No changes. Only cars that still have the odd shaped black mustang style cell with stock mustang pump might need to upgrade. Fuel safe pump is good to 400+ hp
14. Just bolted on, adjusted the rockers and went.

[FFRSpec72]

Jim, Brian, thanks, some addtional questions

1. Will the FFR spindles fit on the existing spindle adaptors that we have? I don't know much about new FFR spindles and what they come with as I did not see these on the FFR site, so these have the SAI mod already? Seems that the SN95 spindles @ less than $200 would be cheaper, but not sure what FFR spindles cost + welding required
2. Addtional noise may be an issue and add to costs and rework of current exhaust, so would be nice to get a reading on noise level befofre and after?
3. OEM throttle body used or larger?
4. OEM fuel rails reused or after market?
5. Current bump steer reuseable?
6. Compression ratio change?
7. On rear rotors, it may be easier to allow Cobra rotors and thus when getting rotors may be cheaper as a set
8. Cam seems to be close to E303 but longer exhaust duration.
9. Adjustable fuel pressure valve would now be required not optional right (if going with a top end package)
10. With the FFR spindles seems like there is different UCA mounting, how did you deal with this?

[Jim Schenck]

No problem Tony,

On your other questions:

1. The MKIV spindles do not require spindle adapters they are a more typical double A-arm design with the taper for the upper balljoint built in. There would be no need or way to use the SAI kit on them so that cost is eliminated.
2. The next test I am hoping to run will be at NHIS which has a 95DB limit. We have run a car in this same configuration (cam, heads, exhaust) at that track without issues. Lower than that (like 89 DB at Limerock) is where I am thinking we'll be having to add muffled tips.
3. 70mm throttle body. The plan is to try and have these parts added to the Trickflow kit, Throttle body, Mass Air, Injectors. I ran without an EGR spacer.
4. OEM rails
5. Yes
6. The heads do have a smaller chamber which bumps the compression by around half a point
7. The bigger cost I was thinking on the Cobra rears is the caliper brackets. The factory brackets require the longer axles and the aftermarket brackets are fairly expensive. Also many people running the T-bird calipers would have to replace the entire system and I think we would like to avoid that if possible. Still I agree it is worth more thought if that is what the majority of people want to see.
8. This is still a streetable camshaft, but the split pattern seems to give better hp numbers than what we have seen from the E or B cams.
9. Not required so long as the air fuel is in a safe range. Still it does help get the most power out of the system.
10. The older frames would have to be updated to the new mounting bracket. It is strictly an addition with nothing needing to be removed, but it does require welding. We would make a retrofit kit that lines up the bracket using the current holes so the location is straightforward.

[jimgood]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the hood louvres on the #85 make any difference? I'm curious because my old car came to me with the rear edge of the hood raised up about an inch above the cowl. I always thought this was done because the car had had so many overheating issues so I never really gave it any thought. But at one of the VIR races, Jeff Bowles, crew chief for Paul Kaiser, raised an eyebrow about that hood modification and implied that I was cheating. He never made anything of it because I wasn't in contention for a podium spot, not to mention I was down about 20 hp on the rest of the field. But it just got me to thinking that, if there's an aero dynamic advantage to venting air from the engine compartment, maybe that would be an inexpensive way to get some extra speed out of these cars.

Also, was the possibility of routing the intake into the passenger footwell discussed or was it rejected on the basis that some folks want to have room for a passenger?

[FFRSpec72]

10. The older frames would have to be updated to the new mounting bracket. It is strictly an addition with nothing needing to be removed, but it does require welding. We would make a retrofit kit that lines up the bracket using the current holes so the location is straightforward.

7. Maybe could get a deal from Richard on the brackets as part of the package (since I already have to pull the axles to change gears, the cost of the calipers and rotors is not much for the rear)
10. So was the car a MkIII or MkII that you upgraded? So I assume the new bracket would bolt/align to the existing UCA holes and then require welding on sides and bottom?

All-in-all sounds well sorted out and have seemed to picked up on the current short comming, the big question will be the costs of the top end and the front suspension package (as brakes are easy item to figure). Looking forward to the final configuration and costs. Thanks for all the hard work figuring all this out and also thinking about the future for Factory Five Racing series.

[Jim Schenck]

Jim,

There is a definate difference in hood lift with the louvers. If you watch Johns video of the 85 car the hood stays pretty flat all the way down the backstraight at VIR. My hood on the other hand was bowing in the middle by more than an inch to let the high pressure air out. Not sure though how much of an actual lap time difference we would notice since that car has all the additional aero mods done as well it is too tough to tell.

Tony,
Anything is possible on the brackets. We have some machined here that we sell a bunch to street car guys with fox width axle brake kits as well. Just a matter of what suits the most people I think, and this is already a lot of money to spend in one offseason I know.

My car is a MKII but a MKIII would be the same. My thinking is to bolt on a bracket to the upper arm mount that locates the new mount while it is welded. We can't use the old arm mounting holes to bolt on an adapter because the current bolts interfere with the new mounting bolts. (It is a little different from the SAI kit location) We considered using the SAI but all of the newer cars have the mounting brackets in place and we can include the spindles with the kits.

[FFRSpec72]

Thoughts on time/money issues, might the upgrade be optional and those that want to continue to run (at a disadvantage) can do so? I also assume that all or any parts of the upgrade may be done, once again they can run but will be at a disadvantage? or will this be a MUST upgrade to run issue?

[mhoward1]

When talking to Jim and others they are definitely thinking all upgrades will be OPTIONAL. None of these changes will be mandatory.

[FFSpecRacer]

Marty is correct!

You will still be able to run the current spec as it is now. Whether you upgrade will be optional. However, we are discussing if certain parts of the upgrade can be done one at a time or if certain things will have to be done in groups. For example, say someone wanted to just do the top end engine, can they do that alone or must they also do the front brakes at the same time? This examples questions safety of doing one without the other.

But I think it would be safe to say that if someone wanted to do front brakes and/or the sway bar only in 2012, then do something else in 2013 and so on, they will be able to.

[FFRSpec72]

So did you all look into the Explorer intake (upper/lower), 65mm TB and MAF instead of the Trickflow, as these can be had for llike $100, could make the package more affordable?

[Jim Schenck]

Tony,

We did consider the explorer/GT40p stuff but the power gains just didn't seem worth it. It was about a 30-35hp jump (with a cam change) as opposed to 100hp over our current set-up. Also the P heads require a different header for spark plug clearance and are all older so they would need reconditioning in most cases before use which wipes out the cost advantage vs a new set of heads.

[EBarnes]

Is there a projected date as to when the final set up will be determined? Or at least, anything I can do to the engine I'm building now, with the intent for it to conform?

thanks!

[FFRSpec72]

Still testing? Will you get a chance to test aginst the current spec racers at the Nationals?

[FFRSpec72]

So the heads seem to have more volume than that stock head (58cc vs 61cc) and seems that is going to lower the compression a little.

[Richard Oben]

Converting to the cobra rear brakes is not a big deal, we invented and have been selling an FX track conversion for almost 10 years for 150 bucks. The caliper is the same the as the GT so all you need is rotors. The pad bracket for the GT can releived a little to clear the vented rotor. The GT pads new may be too thick but they will work if used just some. Many Many of the current guys use our T bird or GT conversion now and are happy with it. JMHO, Richard.

[FFR#63]

Jim,
How did the car feel with the new configuration at Mid Ohio? Also, I've purchased a set of the Factory Five front spindles. You mentioned that an "updated MKIV style upper arm mount was welded into place". Can I purchase that part Factory Five? I'm interested in doing as much work on the car as I can now. Thanks for the help!

[EBarnes]

I'm interested in doing as much work on the car as I can now...

Me too! Specifically, building an engine. Is anything decided yet?

[Richard Oben]

I think the mount is a peice of angle iron welded or bolted to the upper arm mount. It is similar to the SAI mod that Dave Borden came up with a few years ago but works with the new spindle. HTH, Richard.

[FFRSpec72]

Jim, do you have a time frame in mind when/if the potential upgrades will be decided upon?

[Jim Schenck]

We are working on the rules now, I was shooting for getting them released before Sema, but we are not quite there yet. I am hoping we are done by Nov 11th.
I fully understand the earlier the better, just want to make sure we don't miss anything.

[mhoward1]

Thanks for the Update

[FFRSpec72]

Hoping for an update tomorrow (11/11/11)?

[Jim Schenck]

The rules have been submitted to NASA for approval based on the same configuration as tested at Mid-Ohio and VIR. I only got them the rules this morning so we are likely looking at next week unless they ask for major revisions. As soon as they are released we'll post a link here.

[FFRSpec72]

Any idea if FFR will offer a either engine or front end package so we don't have to go searching around?

[FFSpecRacer]

Just a quick update.

Rules went to NASA on the 11th.

We have not heard back from them about approval or changes.

[EBarnes]

I'm checking every day or two, so I appreciate the update.

[mhoward1]

Jim,
Do we have a full part #s list to start shopping with yet?

[FFSpecRacer]

I would avoid shopping before the rules are approved. FFR and TFS are not ready for us to order yet anyways. We will post when the rules are approved and when FFR and TFS are ready for us to order. I've been getting a list together to help people out.

[mhoward1]

I just hope we don't have to wait until January, because it will very hard to get the list then and be ready for the first races of the season.

[mhoward1]

Considering how close we are getting to the new season, what if these became 2013 rules, or is everyone ready to make these changes?

I will say that I have just figured out the current setup and now I am not sure if I am ready for such a drastic change so soon.

[FFSpecRacer]

You will be able to run the current 2011 spec in 2012. You do not have to change.

[mhoward1]

You will be able to run the current 2011 spec in 2012. You do not have to change.

I understand that, but unless you upgrade then you will not be competitive. I know that is a choice that one has to make...but with only a couple of months before the 2012 season and still no definite approval it's going to be close.