Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[Rockraven]

Thank you!



Agree. That sounds very reasonable and makes me very excited!



I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?

Noise, vibration, harshness. Manufacturers have to find a good balance, and some NVH is desirable (Cobra, Harley) and in other vehicles (luxury cars, sport bikes) it's undesirable.

[Nuul]

-Bodies are universal. Hardtop/coupe/whatever it will be will fit a subaru drivetrain no problem. Dave needs to work on his wording as well

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

Perfect. This answered the two questions I had for the open house. Thanks for this.

[Etos]

Any conversation on:

Fly-by-wire/Throttle cable differences
Wide Sedans/Narrow Wagons differences

Sorry I hate DBC with a passion so I didn't think to bring it up. I'm sure they have something in mind. Obviously with the current test mule it's not a problem since it's DBW.

Again I wasn't thinking about sedan/wagon differences so it didn't come up.

I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?

NVH = noise vibration harshness. There are 2 engine mounts and 1 trans mount. You can get varying softness in these mounts. OEM mounts are pretty soft and allow alot of movement but have little noise or vibrations since the rubber in the mounts absorb this. There are different levels of firmness depending on what you get. Group N mounts have the exact same structure as OEM with just harder rubber. There's Aftermarket mounts that are essentially all metal or uses poly instead of rubber.

[Xusia]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

[818]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

The engine and transmission weigh a lot. When a lot of weight wiggles around, it's hard on the cv joints, engine mounts, frame, and any hoses, cables or wires that interface between the (relative) static chassis and dynamic engine/transmission. On FWD cars, soft stock OEM mounts can allow so much movement the engine can cause severe damage. On an SRT-4 for example, the turbo can bang into the firewall as well as the oil pan can smack into the lower torque strut hard enough to crack the pan, and starving your engine of oil. Also (On the SRT-4), stock motor mounts create significant wheel hop causing traction issues.

Because the 818 is a very different beast, and because the engine is longitudinal, and in the rear, it may be less of an issue, but still, will be hard on the cv joints. Personally, I prefer a solid/spherical-bearing mount, but you would feel every single vibration with that. Short of that, a high-durometer urethane mount would be my next choice.

[apexanimal]

the group-n mounts are a good compromise - much less movement, and still relatively comfy...

[NonProfit]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

It is no doubt a subjective thing, but has to do with feel and feedback. Taken to the extreme, something like a Grand Marquis does a really good job of isolating noise and vibration. But in the process, it kind of kills the driving experience.

With that said, I'm hoping for more refined than less and will not elect for the harder mounts.

[SkiRideDrive]

I haven't made up my mind on engine mounts, as the engine isn't a stressed member of the chassis, but I would be interested in hearing about any sources of compliance in the suspension or steering system for more direct feedback and consistent tuning.

[Etos]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

OEM rubber is very soft and compliant. This allows the engine to move around in the engine bay a bit. Ever see an engine rev in the bay? That's due to the mounts rubber allowing the movement. Same with the trans mount. Ever see the shifter move around on it's own and not due to shifter bushings? That's the engine twisting thus moving the trans thus moving the shifter.

When the engine moves around like that, that's power being used to crush and stretch rubber as opposed to turning wheels. Also how the engine feels changes entirely with soft vs firm. Soft has a delayed soft response from the throttle where firm is aggressive and faster response.

It's not like we want things to be harsh and loud(some do), it's just how it all works. For those who want a nicer cruise ride and don't care about response and feel then the softer the better. Those who want response at all costs, the firmer the better. Ofcourse to a point, too firm and the trans absorbs shocks, too soft and it bounces around all over the place.

[Etos]

I haven't made up my mind on engine mounts, as the engine isn't a stressed member of the chassis, but I would be interested in hearing about any sources of compliance in the suspension or steering system for more direct feedback and consistent tuning.

Well the engine/tranny mounts affect engine response mainly, with a tiny power difference.

For other bushings... There's only 5 in total for the suspension.

Front control arm rear bushing
Front control arm front bushing
Rear lateral arms all use the same bushing(8 in total)
Rear trailing arm front bushing
Rear trailing arm rear bushing

IMO the best ones to get are the TiC graphite bushings if you want something more firm or really firm(they make them in different hardness levels). They make those bushings for most of those arms.

[ursa5000]

Dave,

WOW !!!! That is one smokin' hot car. I would give my left pinky to really hammer that throttle! Crusin' down the Pacifiic Coast (Highway 1) in California from Monterey to San Luis Obispo on a hot summer day in the 818 would be like...... winning the lottery, only better !! I forgot who mentioned this fact, but this really is a Miata sized car and there absolutley ain't ---- NOTHIN' ----- like the 818 in that price and style range. (Oh yea, the headlights need to be stacked vertically IMHO..but I'll take care of that, it's still a FFR kit after all)

Dave, you really are gonna need a bigger booth, bigger production plans, and FFR will need to start setting up a waiting list for the 818.... its gonna be a long one too.

I almost have the funds for a '33 saved up, but now I gotta rethink what I'm gonna do. Oh yea, the wife's strongly leaning toward the 818 (coupe) over the '33. I honestly don't stand a chance...lol.

Da Bear

[shim2]

Dave,

WOW !!!! That is one smokin' hot car. I would give my left pinky to really hammer that throttle! Crusin' down the Pacifiic Coast (Highway 1) in California from Monterey to San Luis Obispo on a hot summer day in the 818 would be like...... winning the lottery, only better !! I forgot who mentioned this fact, but this really is a Miata sized car and there absolutley ain't ---- NOTHIN' ----- like the 818 in that price and style range. (Oh yea, the headlights need to be stacked vertically IMHO..but I'll take care of that, it's still a FFR kit after all)

Dave, you really are gonna need a bigger booth, bigger production plans, and FFR will need to start setting up a waiting list for the 818.... its gonna be a long one too.

I almost have the funds for a '33 saved up, but now I gotta rethink what I'm gonna do. Oh yea, the wife's strongly leaning toward the 818 (coupe) over the '33. I honestly don't stand a chance...lol.

Da Bear

You bring up an interesting point. I wonder how they predict initial sales to be and if they're going to have enough kits ready to ship so they don't get flooded and have a 6-12month waiting list. Because that would suck.

[projectrally]

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

This is great. I hope the body itself is modular, i.e. the hardtop can be retrofitted to the roadster body (in a similar way to what they do on the '33, perhaps) so that we early adopters don't have to buy an entirely new body.

-Links for the STi wheel hub is being considered and Jim assures me he understands why people want the STi hubs. A little CV mutilation is required but cheap if you take it to a shop that specializes on such things.

This is the best news I've heard! I've already got too many sets of wheels for my NC Miata (same bolt pattern as the 05+ STI), and it would be great if these guys could share. Considering the cost of wheels and tires (and the huge amount of space they take up in the basement), I'd definitely rather spend my money on this hub conversion than stocking up on more wheels for another car. Hmm...I wonder what the offset is on the STi wheels...

[ursa5000]

You bring up an interesting point. I wonder how they predict initial sales to be and if they're going to have enough kits ready to ship so they don't get flooded and have a 6-12month waiting list. Because that would suck.

I'm darn sure that FFR already has contingency plans -----requierments and lead times for raw materials, finsihed goods, new hires, and plant expansion----for three different sales levels, based on the first 60 days of sales....A search of a couple of websites indicated that FFR sells around 500 kits a year. If new orders for the 818 level off at one every other day, that would be a 36% increase in kit units in one year for FFR. --that is a very challanging set of management issues for even the best run companies.

Da Bear

[apexanimal]

Well the engine/tranny mounts affect engine response mainly, with a tiny power difference.

For other bushings... There's only 5 in total for the suspension.

Front control arm rear bushing
Front control arm front bushing
Rear lateral arms all use the same bushing(8 in total)
Rear trailing arm front bushing
Rear trailing arm rear bushing

IMO the best ones to get are the TiC graphite bushings if you want something more firm or really firm(they make them in different hardness levels). They make those bushings for most of those arms.

tic has a package for all of these points too... 95a hardness on them... pretty good... and if the caster is already at 3 and possibly over, i don't feel the need to drop the large coin on some alk's...

[Etos]

tic has a package for all of these points too... 95a hardness on them... pretty good... and if the caster is already at 3 and possibly over, i don't feel the need to drop the large coin on some alk's...

That's the old bush new bush refresh package. Very good package as it happens to replace every suspension bushing on an 818. For the price you can't beat getting 16 bushing points replaced.

They sell the front arm rear bushing alone without an ALK housing for the price of the bushing. They are big bushings and very good quality as well as no need to press them in. Definitely worth getting for people who want to get a better suspension.

[leetfade]

It's nice that TiC is right down the road from me!! :-D I may have to pay them a visit about one of these projects.

[Nuul]

You should, they seem like nice guys based on their posts on NASIOC. I'll probably be buying their TGV delete kit once it's released to the public.

[leetfade]

I have talked to them a couple times via PMs on another site. We were supposed to go sit down with them a bit but have just not had the time yet.. Now I have a new reason to. :-)

[apexanimal]

You should, they seem like nice guys based on their posts on NASIOC. I'll probably be buying their TGV delete kit once it's released to the public.

i tried to find where it was suggested how much they'll be but came up short... any idea how much those are? i really want them...

[mug23]

i tried to find where it was suggested how much they'll be but came up short... any idea how much those are? i really want them...

Is this the kit you are looking for? This is the kit I have for my STI right now but I still have install it yet.

http://www.kstech.biz/servlet/the-16...ete-Kit/Detail

[Nuul]

I've not seen the price yet. Co$worth TGV deletes that looks similar in material are $570 so I'd think it'd be well under that.

[posthaste]

As a small child, prone to wimsy and imagination....I am most certain I dreamed of the track car and not the road friendly versions of cars.
Just saying

Yes, I am aware that all versions will be ***-kickingly awesome.

[apexanimal]

I've not seen the price yet. Co$worth TGV deletes that looks similar in material are $570 so I'd think it'd be well under that.

it's either diy tumbler delete w/ phoenolic spacers, or the tic composit tgv's for me... just depends on price i think... if in the low 300's i think i'd be in...

[SkiRideDrive]

it's either diy tumbler delete w/ phoenolic spacers, or the tic composit tgv's for me... just depends on price i think... if in the low 300's i think i'd be in...

Aren't TGV deletes just flat plates to cover up a pathway normally used for emissions purposes? I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject, but how could plates cost hundreds of dollars?

[305mouse]

It's a whole new housing, without the butterfly assembly. I know Grimmspeed made TGV deletes, but they're made of plastic, like the new intake manifolds. Nice thing about the plastic though is it won't absorb and transfer heat like the oem one will. No need for a phoenolic spacer if you use that.

[Mechie3]

To take it further, TGV's are part of the intake manifold with 2 paths. One path is closed by a butterfly during cold starts. When it's warm the butterflies open up allowing both passages to flow. The butterfly, the shaft the butterflies are mounted to, and the metal divider are all in the way of the flow. A delete has plates (or screws, welded, etc) to block off the hole for the shaft after the shaft, butterflies, and metal divider are all removed.

[apexanimal]

correct, and tic's are composite so there will be VERY little heat transfer from the head to the intake mani thus eliminating the need for phenolic spacers...

[Nuul]

And it's good for ~12HP so it's definitely worth doing. The DIY instructions aren't too bad either if you don't want to spend any money on it.

[SkiRideDrive]

After looking at the DIY thread, it seems like you can get a majority of the gain with minimal effort by just pulling the butterfly plates. Thoughts?

[mug23]

correct, and tic's are composite so there will be VERY little heat transfer from the head to the intake mani thus eliminating the need for phenolic spacers...

Do you have a link to the TIC's TGV's? Are you saying that the entire TGV housing is made of composite material? Wow, I know the stock ones are metal of course but the entire one is made of composite material would be awesome and less weight too.

[mug23]

After looking at the DIY thread, it seems like you can get a majority of the gain with minimal effort by just pulling the butterfly plates. Thoughts?

You need to take the plates out and do some porting to enlarge the hole a bit. That way you can the max air flow through the TGV's before entering the heads. You can get enlarge gasket to match the enlarge ported hole of the TGV from Grimmspeed.

[Nuul]

Do you have a link to the TIC's TGV's? Are you saying that the entire TGV housing is made of composite material? Wow, I know the stock ones are metal of course but the entire one is made of composite material would be awesome and less weight too.

The pre-production samples are out for review with a few engine builders. There's a good picture of them in this thread.

[Exidous]

With regards to the version to be displayed at SEMA: I must say that in my opinion the track car will grab more attention but the street car will sell better. So that's a toss up Dave will have to make. As far as the images released, I cannot say my hair is anywhere close to on fire. I like it but certainly not enough to buy. :-( There have been a couple mods the guys on the boards have made that certainly helped but I had really hoped that the design had gone in a direction or Rondey's car. I must hold too many of my comments until the car is actually release but as of right now I am not a buyer. I'd rather save a lot longer and spend three times as much and build a GTM how I see fit. Of course I'd prefer to only spend 15-20K but with the current body, it will not happen. Sorry to sound harsh but I only want FFR to succeed and I do not think the current body is !!!!! enough.

Patrick

[pondo]

Dave,

I joined the forums just now to provide some positive feedback to FFR's efforts and to give an opinion from one of your target audiences. I'm 29 years old, chemical engineer by profession, with mechanical know-how, long time car buff but never built a car from scratch. I've wanted to build a GTM since I first read about it years ago but the barriers of entry were too great (cost). A "trackable" street 818 would be the perfect combination of price, performance, and FUN. I'm sure many of us will need to convince the wives as well and an "all season" car would smooth over much easier. Another deciding factor is the drive-train. I spent 5 years of college beating a 2002 WRX day in and day out to death without a single issue in 100k miles...and on the same clutch! After seeing the aggressive look of the car, the bullet-proof Subaru drivetrain and the bottom line ~$15k build price I'm sold.

Cheers!

Edit: For SEMA bring a track prepped street car. AKA track car with some carpet and decent finishing - multipurpose is the winner. Many people would love a race car they can drive to work!

[Dave Smith]

Guys. I've decided to shoot for an intro at SEMA of both a street car AND the 818R version. I figured that SEMA deserves both versions yet the body and molding changes are HUGE challeneges in the timeframe allotted. I am driving the crew VERY hard here so IF I disappear under strange circumstances it will most likely be Jesper and Jim stuffing me into a trunk on the way to some abandoned rock quarry... "Both versions for SEMA? they asked...

[shim2]

Guys. I've decided to shoot for an intro at SEMA of both a street car AND the 818R version. I figured that SEMA deserves both versions yet the body and molding changes are HUGE challeneges in the timeframe allotted. I am driving the crew VERY hard here so IF I disappear under strange circumstances it will most likely be Jesper and Jim stuffing me into a trunk on the way to some abandoned rock quarry... "Both versions for SEMA? they asked...

Great decision Dave. I'm sure it will turn out the best. With that said, you're building another go kart correct?

[Zodiac]

nice I can't wait. Hmmm now I wonder how buying the kit will be. Buy a 818 but get the 818r stylling or vice versa? Will both be available at time of release? Guess time will tell

[Nuul]

I've decided to shoot for an intro at SEMA of both a street car AND the 818R version.

I'm really glad you decided to do this.

[RM1SepEx]

Been the answer for me from the beginning