How tough do you suppose it will to maintain the 818?

[dustmann]

After seeing a few build pics of the GTM, shoehorning the engine/tranny into position doesn't look like a lot of fun.. and doesn't even look possible with a body on it. How much trouble are we looking at to replace a clutch for instance? Especially after the body is on it, and it gets a little wear and tear. What are your opinions on engine work, oil changes, routine maintenance etc after the build?

We haven't seen the rear end of the car yet, I imagine it will have a trunk of sorts to access the engine, but if it is anything like the GTM, it looks like it will be a bear to install a fresh clutch every so often. I've had to replace a few clutches in the last few years, none (yet) from my own excessive use, mostly because I buy old and worn out (cheap) used cars to DD. Just looking for opinions/speculation, especially from guys who anticipate track use and/or have experience with the Subaru engines.

Edit: oops, forgot the be.. never really liked bees anyway..

[Mike N]

Hopefully the complete rear clip or rear body panels will be relatively easy to remove for engine / trans work and it would also make suspension tuning / alignment easier too. Does anyone know how the engine and trans is installed into the chassis? From the bottom?

[thane]

I've never worked on a mid-engined car, nor really anything like what FF offers; so my input is, at best, limited. I will say that I had to replace the clutch on my DD WRX wagon after 110k and roughly 50 hard starts at the drag strip and autoX. Car now has 123k and has basically been bulletproof. Plugs are a tiny bit fiddly to get to. Oil change should be a breeze. Really, these motors don't need much, until they need an overhaul.

thane

[Mechie3]

Simple fix: Buy a new clutch kit (amazon sells Exedy OEM replacements for ~200 including pressure plate, disc, and bearings), install it before putting the motor/trans back together and in the car. Enjoy 60k+miles depending on how you drive.

[WonderDude]

Simple fix: Buy a new clutch kit (amazon sells Exedy OEM replacements for ~200 including pressure plate, disc, and bearings), install it before putting the motor/trans back together and in the car. Enjoy 60k+miles depending on how you drive.

60k??? Are the clutches in WRX's really only good for 60,000 miles?

[BrandonDrums]

I actually by the looks of it, most of the jobs on the 818 for power would also be easier. Injectors could be a little fussy but if you have access around those cross braces on the 818, you can do almost everything easier than on the subaru donor save the timing and acc belts.

I'm getting ready to change my cluntch and on a subaru, it's a huge PITA because of the limited space and the AWD, you have to remove the rear driveshaft and both front axles from the tranny on top of everything else.

In the 818, I image the rear of the body will be a clamshell that you can remove, even if the bumper doesn't come off it will be easy to take the trans out. Just remove IC, disconnect the wiring and shifter linkage, and unbolt the trans from the engine and chassis and *boom, you can hoist the transmission straight out of the engine bay.

Another benefit of the 818, the valvecovers aren't up against the chassis by the looks of it. Doing a compression test will be way easy AND the saved weight and potentially cooler engine compartment could result in fewer cracked rings to begin with. Win WIn!

[Mechie3]

60k??? Are the clutches in WRX's really only good for 60,000 miles?

No. I was just giving a low number so that if someone comes and burns a clutch and eats it up they don't come back saying "well, this mechie3 guy promised me I'd get 100k". :lol:

I'm getting ready to change my cluntch and on a subaru, it's a huge PITA because of the limited space and the AWD, you have to remove the rear driveshaft and both front axles from the tranny on top of everything else.

Glad you posted this. There's an easier way. Remove the driveshaft, but not the axles. Put the trans on a jack and simply slide it backwards. You'll have to alternate back/down since you'll hit the firewall if you don't. You should be able to move it back ~ 6 inches with the axles still attached. The very front can rest on the engine cradle. More than enough room to get in there and change the clutch. No fussing with pullng axles or ball joints to get the axles out.

i've done clutches start to finish (pulling car in garage to pulling it out) in 4 hours on a Subaru. Not pulling axles/ball joints saves an hour or more.

[StatGSR]

Brandon, your doing it wrong! Its always way easier to just pull the motor to replace the clutch in the subaru! Granted you have to deal with all the fluids.and stuff, its sill much easier work to do.

[metalmaker12]

Act clutch kit stage 1-2 or OEM clutch for stock hp and feel is the only way to go in theses cars, every stage 1-2 kit other kit will not last in these cars.
This comes from me and a source that has 15 years of Subaru experience.
Act clutch kit stage 1-2 are not cheap like $600, match that with a Oem flywheel and you got a clutch that will last a long time, beating after beating.

Agreed to you both, pulling the motor is one way when the engine is old and bolts are frozen etc, but on a fresh car I can do one in 1-3 hours either on a lift with a tranny and large jack stand, or on the ground with the cars noise lifted and using a jack( hate the ground). In addition to Mechie3 I remove the wheel and brakes and pop the axle nut off to give you 7-11 inches, it is plenty enough room to do a good clean job. I have pulled motors for clutch jobs when it is completely needed.

On the 818 a clutch will be even more of a snap. You will need to take the rear body portion off, remove the tranny mounting bolts and take the rear wheels, brakes, exhaust, tranny linkage and axle nut off, lift it out with a cherry picker, change the goods and put it back together, 1-3 hours tops. You might even want to take the whole engine out, but I don't think it will be needed.

[Mechie3]

Brandon, your doing it wrong! Its always way easier to just pull the motor to replace the clutch in the subaru! Granted you have to deal with all the fluids.and stuff, its sill much easier work to do.

See my response above yours. There's an even easier way.

[dustmann]

It seems like most of the subaru guys are sold on an OEM style replacement clutch (maybe to save wear/tear on the transmission). I don't know if I am sold on a monster clutch yet.. for the same reason. In an AWD the tires are a lot less likely to spin, so something else has to give (differentials? tranny? u-joints?), what is that factor in a lightweight, mid engine RWD car? Besides the tires.. I already envision enough traction issues as it is! Any anticipated trouble spots?

[305mouse]

I think with engine and tranny right there over the rear wheels, I wouldn't expect too much in the way of traction problems. If you're trying to drag the car, then yes, but for DD or even spirited driving I think it'll be ok. Track use might be a little different. I guess that's what wider tires are for.

[BrandonDrums]

Glad you posted this. There's an easier way. Remove the driveshaft, but not the axles. Put the trans on a jack and simply slide it backwards. You'll have to alternate back/down since you'll hit the firewall if you don't. You should be able to move it back ~ 6 inches with the axles still attached. The very front can rest on the engine cradle. More than enough room to get in there and change the clutch. No fussing with pullng axles or ball joints to get the axles out.

i've done clutches start to finish (pulling car in garage to pulling it out) in 4 hours on a Subaru. Not pulling axles/ball joints saves an hour or more.

This sounds MUCH more reasonable!

Brandon, your doing it wrong! Its always way easier to just pull the motor to replace the clutch in the subaru! Granted you have to deal with all the fluids.and stuff, its sill much easier work to do.

Somehow I don't think pulling the motor is easier by any stretch of the imagination. Considering I've replaced my front axle in an hour, even if Mechie3 didn't chime in I'd still think moving the tranny back would be less fuss than pulling the engine out...

[StatGSR]

Somehow I don't think pulling the motor is easier by any stretch of the imagination. Considering I've replaced my front axle in an hour, even if Mechie3 didn't chime in I'd still think moving the tranny back would be less fuss than pulling the engine out...

considering i have been part of several 2 hour or less subaru engine i think its quite easy (bet i could get a na EJ out in under an hour now). its also nice that your not working on your back under the car for more than few bolts, lining up the engine on the trans is also much easier than lining up the trans on the engine imo. if your working on something older, all the tranny crossmember bolts can get seized up pretty good and cause all sorts of problems. not to mention you can freshen up several things on the engine in a few minutes when its out of the car which will usually take much longer with it in (spark plugs,rear main seal, rear oil plate leaks, oil pan leaks, etc). i can tell you with 100% certainty that i would never drop the trans to replace a clutch, but different strokes for different folks.

[Etos]

I don't even see the need to bring up a clutch job on a subaru vs the 818. It will obviously be much much easier on the 818. Take off the rear bumper, unbolt the trans mount, lateral links and shifter. Maybe the exhaust depending on how the final design will end up being. Even so subaru OEM clutches last a very long time. My wifes STi original clutch is still doing fine at 120k miles without any slipping. So basically it's not something to worry about so long as you put a new one in from the start.

Now for most maintenance work which will be oil changes really- I'm sure it won't be any different except rear vs front. Things like timing belt, water pump, coolant, plugs I can see being a much bigger pain since you'll need to pull the motor out. Even so- if you can put it in, you can pull it out.

[metalmaker12]

Pulling the motor out of the 818 will be a piece of cake bro, and you will be able to do a timing belt etc in no time with little effort.

[BrandonDrums]

considering i have been part of several 2 hour or less subaru engine i think its quite easy (bet i could get a na EJ out in under an hour now). its also nice that your not working on your back under the car for more than few bolts, lining up the engine on the trans is also much easier than lining up the trans on the engine imo. if your working on something older, all the tranny crossmember bolts can get seized up pretty good and cause all sorts of problems. not to mention you can freshen up several things on the engine in a few minutes when its out of the car which will usually take much longer with it in (spark plugs,rear main seal, rear oil plate leaks, oil pan leaks, etc). i can tell you with 100% certainty that i would never drop the trans to replace a clutch, but different strokes for different folks.

That's incredible! Do you have a writeup somewhere on how to do it that way?

[StatGSR]

That's incredible! Do you have a writeup somewhere on how to do it that way?

just google subaru engine pull or engine removal, there seem to be a bunch out there..

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t632...e-removal.html
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/how-inst...own-motor.html

[Mechie3]

How many motor pulls have you done? I've done 5, and the best I could do was 2 hours on an 06 WRX to remove it. Most people I know take 4 to 5 hours to get it ready to pull out. Granted, I had to drop the front U-frame and swaybar because the bar was too big and blocked the motor mount bolts. That adds only 20 mins tops.

[StatGSR]

How many motor pulls have you done?

been part of about 4-5 NA pulls and 1 Turbo Pull. no doubt there are a number more steps in pulling a turbo engine and additional time required and i would still allow a weekend to do it on either, but i don't usually work on my cars like its a race anyway, it takes what it takes, i still find the labor to be "easier" than dropping or sliding a tranny out of the way.

[prematureapex]

I actually think it's easier to pull the radiator, and slide the motor forward 8 inches or so to access the clutch. Leave the trans/driveshaft etc. alone.

Sorry, off-topic.

No. I was just giving a low number so that if someone comes and burns a clutch and eats it up they don't come back saying "well, this mechie3 guy promised me I'd get 100k". :lol:



Glad you posted this. There's an easier way. Remove the driveshaft, but not the axles. Put the trans on a jack and simply slide it backwards. You'll have to alternate back/down since you'll hit the firewall if you don't. You should be able to move it back ~ 6 inches with the axles still attached. The very front can rest on the engine cradle. More than enough room to get in there and change the clutch. No fussing with pullng axles or ball joints to get the axles out.

i've done clutches start to finish (pulling car in garage to pulling it out) in 4 hours on a Subaru. Not pulling axles/ball joints saves an hour or more.

[Etos]

Pulling the motor out of the 818 will be a piece of cake bro, and you will be able to do a timing belt etc in no time with little effort.

Even so- if you can put it in, you can pull it out.

I'm not saying it will be impossibly hard. Just in comparison to the rest of the maintenance it will be a pain. Also looking at the bars supporting the trans and the bars over the engine, there's very little wiggle room if you keep the headers/up pipe/turbo attached. Again not impossibly hard, just a pain. But as I said, if you can put it in, you can pull it out.

[prematureapex]

Should ahve finished reading the thread before I made my first post...

No need to "pull" the motor, just remove the radiator, and slide it forward enough to access the clutch. This can be done on a jack or two, WITHOUT the need for an engine hoist.

All you ahve to do, literally, is remove the 2 engine mount bolts, pull the radiator, pull the clutch fork pin, the 8 engine/trans bolts, and the downpipe.

That's it. no driveshaft/protector, no exhaust, no trans cradle, very minimal on-your-back work, etc. I can get to the clutch in under an hour that way. Easily.

It's pretty common in the Suby community to slide the engine forward, vs. dropping the trans for clutch replacements.

Beyond that, after motor swapping 4 WRXs, and trans swapping another 3, by myself....I'll take removing a motor (or simply moving it) over removing the trans all day every day.

This sounds MUCH more reasonable!




Somehow I don't think pulling the motor is easier by any stretch of the imagination. Considering I've replaced my front axle in an hour, even if Mechie3 didn't chime in I'd still think moving the tranny back would be less fuss than pulling the engine out...

[Nelff]

There are several things that have drawn me to the 818, maintenance is one of the big things... I was in collage for dbbl major engineering and computers and landed in Air Traffic for 26 years. That said, what I wanted to do more than anything was design simple vehicles, car, motorcycle, airplane.... I drive a M3 and a '96 Cobra that's decidedly not stock and both are two frikking heavy with not enough power (well the Cobra has enough). What I want is simple, light, powerful, no frivolity... I want to be able to slide around corners, jump railroad tracks, hang the back end out and steer with the throttle... and now the MOST IMPORTANT PART... I want to be able to get to every dang part of the car to fix what ever I tore up or broke with MINIMAL ISSUES!!! I dislike (trying to be nice) the design of almost every car on the road. PLEASE, please, I want a vehicle that I can work on myself with no subsystems of subsystems... I want a simple sports car, rally car, driver rolled into one that will not drive me to the loony bin with maintenance issues....

[aknapp]

What I want is simple, light, powerful, no frivolity... I want to be able to slide around corners, jump railroad tracks, hang the back end out and steer with the throttle... and now the MOST IMPORTANT PART... I want to be able to get to every dang part of the car to fix what ever I tore up or broke with MINIMAL ISSUES!!! I dislike (trying to be nice) the design of almost every car on the road. PLEASE, please, I want a vehicle that I can work on myself with no subsystems of subsystems... I want a simple sports car, rally car, driver rolled into one that will not drive me to the loony bin with maintenance issues....

+1. I've been thinking the exact same thing for the last 20 years.

[skullandbones]

It seems to me looking at the chassis, that the 818 may be more difficult to work on from the top than the bottom. It may be easier to use a lift or have the whole thing jacked up and on stands for things like replacing belts, plugs and general access to the engine. On my roadster, I have gotten used to jacking up the back or front (on stands). However, the plugs, belts, and other routine maintenance can be done from the top. It just doesn't look like the 818 will be user friendly like that unless there are a lot of body panels that come off easily. Thoughts?? WEK.

[Etos]

It seems to me looking at the chassis, that the 818 may be more difficult to work on from the top than the bottom. It may be easier to use a lift or have the whole thing jacked up and on stands for things like replacing belts, plugs and general access to the engine. On my roadster, I have gotten used to jacking up the back or front (on stands). However, the plugs, belts, and other routine maintenance can be done from the top. It just doesn't look like the 818 will be user friendly like that unless there are a lot of body panels that come off easily. Thoughts?? WEK.

That depends really on what you want to do. I don't see the bottom being an option for getting the engine out. There's no sub frame to remove.

Also consider what kind of milage you can really put on a kit car. They are typically not daily drivers with high miles. The only tough thing to get to is the front of the engine. So long as you use relatively new alternator, belts, plugs, etc I don't see it being a routine thing. All those generally have a about 60-100k miles before the need to change them.

So is it as user friendly as other kit cars? Not really. But how often will it be a concern? Consider it shouldn't be alot of work to get the engine out of a kit car. Unbolt mounts, disconnect lower control arms, unbolt exhaust, water hoses, fuel lines and wires. That alone shouldn't take more then an hour to 2. Once the engines out there's no easier way to work on those routine things then on an engine stand.

[Nuul]

How many motor pulls have you done? I've done 5, and the best I could do was 2 hours on an 06 WRX to remove it.

Feel up to a 6th? Mine is coming out in about two weeks once I finish getting the bottom end built on the new block.

[Mechie3]

Party your house? My family is in town the weekend that hits the 22nd. Autocross that day too. Otherwise I can help.

If body panels come off easily this could be fun to work on. My fmod is fun to work on because once you pull body panels everything is accessible for the most part.

[Nuul]

Yup, small party at my house. I'll post an event on the IIC forum when it's closer to time.