John's EZ36R H6 818R Build

[STiPWRD]

Any concern with the lateral forces on the intercooler bracket?

[Hobby Racer]

Any concern with the lateral forces on the intercooler bracket?

A little, but with the H6 being so smooth, the engine does not rock side to side like the H4's do. It literally never moves when you rev it! Plus the close tight connection to the throttle body also adds much stability.

[Frank818]

Are the H6 engine mounts different than H4? Both on the engine side and FFR frame tubing mounts.

[Hobby Racer]

Yes the engine side are different. The FFR side are the same. I used STI mounts for the FFR side and a custom adaptor to connect to the engine. You can see it here in post #24.

[Frank818]

Nice stuff. Are those Group N mounts rubber or polyU? And are they really stiff or more on the smooth side, absorbing most of the vibrations?
Or maybe it's just the H6 that is designed to have small primary and secondary imbalances. Either way that is great it runs super smooth.

[Hobby Racer]

Nice stuff. Are those Group N mounts rubber or polyU? And are they really stiff or more on the smooth side, absorbing most of the vibrations?
Or maybe it's just the H6 that is designed to have small primary and secondary imbalances. Either way that is great it runs super smooth.

They are Group N mounts so not really stiff. The H6 has no primary or secondary imbalance and there is only a small tertiary imbalance, plus I balanced the internals to ~ 0.5 gram total bob weight!

[Hobby Racer]

Well everything is back and running with the AWIC and smaller 90 mm supercharger pulley. The bad news is can not find anyone to tune the engine and definitely not before my trip to VIR this month. So I think I'm just going to run a very conservative tune and maybe run 100 octane race gas to stave off any possible knock.

Until I can get it on a dyno and know where the knock threshold is I think it is best to error on the side of caution. This is such a strange and unique setup there is no base map to go from, just have to wing it

[J R Jones]

John,
Does your ignition and OX sensors give you A:F ratios to identify lean mixture? Tune a bit fat if you are concerned? I assume your max advanced timing is fixed?

[Hobby Racer]

It's an aftermarket ECU so I have full control over timing and A:F ratios. I have twin wide band sensors, one on each bank and have it setup for a slightly rich mixture already. Timing is my big concern. Since this motor is not a run of the mill build I don't have much to go on as far timing advance throughout the rev range.

[J R Jones]

Various engines have a sweet spot for total timing, SBF more than SBC at about 36 degrees. Potential for harm above that.
I do not know what the Subaru wants and the blogs on that are bizarre. I see numbers in the teens up to twenty which could be advance to a base, not total.
Your tuner may have a target, or maybe he will go to knock, then back off. That would concern me with subsequent fuel purchases.
I assume the production advance/retard function is not a part of your ignition.

Knock sensors are routine technology, I wonder if anyone makes a stand-alone sensor/indicator. Hmmm:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/36339706692...RoCvXgQAvD_BwE

Something else to monitor at 150MPH.

[Hobby Racer]

Various engines have a sweet spot for total timing, SBF more than SBC at about 36 degrees. Potential for harm above that.
I do not know what the Subaru wants and the blogs on that are bizarre. I see numbers in the teens up to twenty which could be advance to a base, not total.

Nope, that's total timing. In a boosted application if you ran 30+ degrees total you would be picking up pieces of your motor everywhere.

Your tuner may have a target, or maybe he will go to knock, then back off. That would concern me with subsequent fuel purchases.

That's part of the problem, I do not have a tuner

I assume the production advance/retard function is not a part of your ignition.

Aftermarket ECU runs everything. Nothing of the stock system remains, plus it would not be applicable since the motor is now supercharged with a different compression ratio.

Knock sensors are routine technology, I wonder if anyone makes a stand-alone sensor/indicator. Hmmm:

I already monitor both stock knock sensors via my aftermarket ECU. Trouble is all knock sensors need to be tuned to the specific knock frequency of each motor configuration, and since mine is no longer stock that frequency is unknown.

Something else to monitor at 150MPH.

Yeah, like there is not enough to do at 150 mph!

[Hobby Racer]

Just for fun I scaled the car again after all the upgrades to see how much weight it has gained. Originally as naturally aspirated with a 5 speed it weighed 1970 lbs. Now with the supercharger, AWIC system, and a 6 speed it weighs 2152 lbs. Not bad only 182 lbs weight gain

Most of that is the 6 speed, those are really heavy.

[Frank818]

This is such a strange and unique setup there is no base map to go from, just have to wing it

Why can't you use your 110mm pulley map and guesstimate from there, then drive it a bit and see what happens?
That's what I did when I changed displacement, CR, injectors and head, all at once. Worked pretty good on first start, but you gotta know your ECU software.

[Hobby Racer]

Why can't you use your 110mm pulley map and guesstimate from there, then drive it a bit and see what happens?
That's what I did when I changed displacement, CR, injectors and head, all at once. Worked pretty good on first start, but you gotta know your ECU software.

That's what I've done, but still no substitute from real dyno testing. Ignition timing is everything on a forced induction motor. I'm just going to be real conservative until I can get it on a dyno.

[Sgt.Gator]

Just for fun I scaled the car again after all the upgrades to see how much weight it has gained. Originally as naturally aspirated with a 5 speed it weighed 1970 lbs. Now with the supercharger, AWIC system, and a 6 speed it weighs 2152 lbs. Not bad only 182 lbs weight gain

Most of that is the 6 speed, those are really heavy.

Posted to the Weights thread. If you scale it let's add your corner weights too. Thanks.

[Frank818]

That's what I've done, but still no substitute from real dyno testing. Ignition timing is everything on a forced induction motor. I'm just going to be real conservative until I can get it on a dyno.

Oops for some weird reason I was thinking you were referring more to A/F tuning. A lot easier to do, but still not peanuts. loll I guess there aren't a lot of supercharged 3.6 on the web, let alone those who discuss their timing map, I understand how difficult it would be to have a start and you probably have nothing at all to refer to.

Let's hope you get it to the dyno sooner than later and yes, very conservative is the best to do, as 1 lousy degree too many could cost all internals.

[Sgt.Gator]

The guy to help you is Jeff Sponaugle. He is a member of this forum and was building an 818 but hasn't been active here for ages (since 2016 I think). He built the original EZ30 turbo back in 2008, documented in this NASIOC thread: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=1437246
and partly covered in his intro post to the FF forum here:https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ight=sponaugle

He started the first Subaru focused dyno tuning shop in Portland that was eventually bought by Cobb.
If there's anyone that help you get it tuned, it's him. If he's not paying attention to PMs here or on NASIOC you might give LinkedIn a try.

[Jetfuel]

Hobby. You can also try and state your case with Corbin Johnson at Johnson tuning
https://johnsontuning.com/

Jet

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The guy to help you is Jeff Sponaugle. He is a member of this forum and was building an 818 but hasn't been active here for ages (since 2016 I think). He built the original EZ30 turbo back in 2008, documented in this NASIOC thread: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=1437246
and partly covered in his intro post to the FF forum here:https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ight=sponaugle

He started the first Subaru focused dyno tuning shop in Portland that was eventually bought by Cobb.
If there's anyone that help you get it tuned, it's him. If he's not paying attention to PMs here or on NASIOC you might give LinkedIn a try.

Jeff is active every day on facebook. you can find him there.
here is picture of his home workshop. the 818 is in the corner.
js.jpg

[Hobby Racer]

Started the car with the smaller 90 mm supercharger pulley today and heard this strange noise. After running up to temperature and not finding anything out of the ordinary, I started looking over thing with a flashlight. I found small black specs around the engine pulleys. Turns out the belt was contacting the supercharger support bracket and slowly machining a groove into it!



After removing the interior so I could access the belt (glad I cut that access hole) I removed the supercharger and bracket. A few minutes with a round file and I now have enough clearance so the belt does not rub.



Apparently the 90 mm pulley draws up slightly closer to the supercharger than the 110 mm pulley and caused the clearance issue.

Aren't race cars fun

[Rob T]

Better to find it in the garage and not on the track....

[Hobby Racer]

Got an appointment with a local tuner who does a lot of Porsche stuff. Unfortunately its for July 1, after VIR. But at least its getting done!

[Hobby Racer]

Had to add an air bleed valve to the intercooler to get all the air out of the AWIC system. I tried a valve made for hot water heaters and it stripped out the threads in a test piece I tapped first. I ended up using a brake bleed screw from a set of Wilwood calipers I had laying around, worked great.

[Frank818]

That's a very nice idea! I had to lift the front of the car and lower the rear as much as possible when I bleeded my system. My water tank is up front and it's a little lower than the cooler in the back.

Is the valve 1/8 NPT? Not sure what caliper valves are.

[Frank818]

On a different note, what conservative total timing will you be running with your 90mm pulley at VIR?
Compared to the timing you had with 110mm.

[Hobby Racer]

Is the valve 1/8 NPT? Not sure what caliper valves are.

Yes, it's 1/8 NPT.

On a different note, what conservative total timing will you be running with your 90mm pulley at VIR?
Compared to the timing you had with 110mm.

The timing is a 3D map, variable by both RPM and MAP (boost). But to give a simple answer, at 5500 RPM and max boost I'll be running ~15 degrees. The lower redline combined with 100 octane fuel should keep me safe until I can dyno it.

[Frank818]

Yeah I use 3D maps as well. 100 octane will definitely keep your mind unstressed. If that 15deg is around 10psi or so. Not sure how 3.6 timing can compare to my VR6 though, but I'm sure despite the safer timing it'll make enough power for you to notice the boost difference!

[Hobby Racer]

I finally got around to cutting holes in the side pods so I can use the jacking pockets I installed earlier this year. Should make tire / brake changes at the track much easier.

I was really putting this off as I did not want to cut big square holes in the side pods. I finally had to get over myself and go for it, its only a race car after all.

IMG_20210621_151057958.jpg IMG_20210621_151127601.jpg

[Hobby Racer]

Well I changed my mind again. I thought I would run the 90 mm supercharger pulley at VIR but have decided to split the difference and go with a 100 mm pulley. Now I have a 90, 100, & 110 mm pulleys. I guess I'll be able to tailor my max boost at the dyno more precisely.

[Frank818]

I finally got around to cutting holes in the side pods so I can use the jacking pockets I installed earlier this year. Should make tire / brake changes at the track much easier.

I was really putting this off as I did not want to cut big square holes in the side pods. I finally had to get over myself and go for it, its only a race car after all.

IMG_20210621_151057958.jpg IMG_20210621_151127601.jpg

You copied that from Porsche. But all the credits go to you for the implementation, does it work well and quick?

[Hobby Racer]

You copied that from Porsche. But all the credits go to you for the implementation, does it work well and quick?

I actually copied it from Gator, who copied it from another post here on the forum.

It does work great, lifts both front and rear tires on the car simultaneously for easy tire / brake changes.

[Sgt.Gator]

I actually copied it from Gator, who copied it from another post here on the forum.

It does work great, lifts both front and rear tires on the car simultaneously for easy tire / brake changes.

I got it from Retro Racing's 818R (who's build is on the forum, but they haven't posted much lately. They are stuck in BC and not racing for 2 years now because of the Wuhan Virus). . I was on their crew for the Cascade Enduro where we used their version.
Works great!

[Hobby Racer]

If you followed the Let's all meet at the track! thread, you know that I was not able to complete the first day and left early the second day. I was having issues with the transmission not shifting into 5th and by the end it would not go into reverse or stay in 4th.

Luckily I did some troubleshooting before yanking the transmission and tearing it apart. Turns out the transmission is fine. All my issues were caused by two things, 1) my rear shift linkage and 2) the Subaru internal reverse lockout mechanism. Both of which could be fixed without removing the transmission.

First off the reverse lockout mechanism: Turns out the tab on the cylindrical spring that locks it in place had somehow jumped out of its locating slot. That allowed the mechanism to float around. When I tried to shift into fifth, the gate for reverse was partly open and I would push the shift lever over too far, preventing me from selecting 5th gear. Conversely when trying to get into reverse it would not fully engage because the gate was only partly open.

IMG_20210708_160128004.jpg IMG_20210708_160124113.jpg

Next the shift linkage itself: When pushing and pulling the linkage from the rear of the car I noticed that it would bind slightly when going into 5th and reverse. I never noticed this when I first fabricated it because when sitting in the car and shifting you can not see the linkage and it always seemed to go into gear. Also my reverse lockout linkage hit the shift arm when trying for 5th. It really does help to have an extra set of eye's and hands when working on these cars!

Anyway, I machined off some material here and there until there is no bind anymore and fabricated a totally different reverse lockout linkage.

Instead of using a lever to twist the lockout shaft I went with a simple cylinder that I could wind my reverse lockout cable around to twist the lockout shaft. This proved to be much more compact and efficient than the complex lever I had before.

IMG_20210708_160153864.jpg

I was able to drill a tiny hole in the main shift linkage support to run the cable through. It hides everything really nicely.

IMG_20210708_171417243.jpg

Here is the final shift linkage and new reverse lockout linkage. Looks nice and clean.

IMG_20210708_180423757.jpg IMG_20210708_180430761.jpg

[Rob T]

John: Glad to hear the problems were "simple". Much better than a trashed trans. How do you control the cable feed to the reverse lockout? If I remember correctly, there are multiple (at least 2) parts of the rotation where shifting to reverse is either blocked or enabled. I solved that problem with mechanical stops on the linkage. I'm curious how you did it.

[Hobby Racer]

John: Glad to hear the problems were "simple". Much better than a trashed trans. How do you control the cable feed to the reverse lockout? If I remember correctly, there are multiple (at least 2) parts of the rotation where shifting to reverse is either blocked or enabled. I solved that problem with mechanical stops on the linkage. I'm curious how you did it.

There are 2 notches in the rotation that allow reverse to be selected. They are very close to one another. One is the main notch and the other is an emergency notch that allows reverse to be selected if the factory cable snaps so you can still get to reverse until the cable can be fixed.

I setup my system so when the lever that pulls the cable is fully depressed, the main notch lines up to allow reverse to be selected. When you let go of the lever the tension in the return spring pulls the lever back up and moves the reverse notches out of alignment about a quarter turn. This way no stops are needed, so long as the spring does not break or jump out of its locking slot again.

[J R Jones]

John, This is obviously unique to the six speed, I have not seen this hardware before. Confusing for me.
The torsion spring is around the shaft in the housing?
The "notches" are internal?
The drum outside and cable retention screw are OEM parts? I would have expected this to be a throttle-like sector with a cable groove and fixed cable end, and cable/case adjustment.
I was interested in the performance of a six speed, not so much now.
Mike noted not using 5th at VIR, were you able to pull 6th?

Did the AWIC deliver the IAT that you sought? How much better was it compared to the air cooled configuration?

[Hobby Racer]

John, This is obviously unique to the six speed, I have not seen this hardware before. Confusing for me.
The torsion spring is around the shaft in the housing?
The "notches" are internal?
The drum outside and cable retention screw are OEM parts? I would have expected this to be a throttle-like sector with a cable groove and fixed cable end, and cable/case adjustment.

Yes, the tension spring is wound around the shaft and is internal to the housing. The notches are also internal. The drum and all external parts are things I fabricated. The OEM setup uses a lever that pulls from the rear and does not work well for the 818 configuration, so everyone just makes their own setup.

Here you can see the internal mechanism. Red arrows show the two notches and the blue shows the spring coiled around the shaft.

Screenshot from 2021-07-09 10-31-56.png

This shows the OEM lever setup and the red arrow shows the direction it pulls. Generally in an 818 there is no room behind the trans to make the OEM setup work.

Screenshot from 2021-07-09 10-31-41.png

I was interested in the performance of a six speed, not so much now.

The 6 speeds are excellent transmissions. Very robust and can handle way more torque than the 5 speeds. All the shifting issues I have had are completely my fault, not anything inherently wrong with the 6 speed design. The ring gear bolts loosening up was concerning but after some research I found its not uncommon in stock diffs used for racing.

Mike noted not using 5th at VIR, were you able to pull 6th?
Did the AWIC deliver the IAT that you sought? How much better was it compared to the air cooled configuration?

Mike has a 5 speed, not a 6 speed. Without being able to ramp up through 5th, 6th just did not pull on the back straight at VIR. It didn't help that the end of the straight is up hill.

The AWIC kept intake temps about 15 degrees above ambient. Really good I thought, but I have not been able to really flog it to see if it heat soaks yet. Next track day I hope to have transmission issues behind me so I can really focus on the motor and driving.

Like all race cars, these are an experiment in progress
We will get them to a fun & reliable point, but we have to work through the issues that come up when pushing things to find their limits.

[mikeb75]

quick note: Like John said - I have a 5 speed and an 8200 RPM redline; 5th gear is so overdriven it was useless for me, was only hitting 7000 RPM at the end of the back straight in 4th - so I had some headroom. But the 6 speed is a superior unit. If I go up significantly in TQ, I will probably need to upgrade.

[DSR-3]

Hey Hobby- let's hear about that blower!

[Hobby Racer]

Hey Hobby- let's hear about that blower!

It makes a nice woooosh sound when shifting as the blow off valve opens

I haven't really been able to concentrate on the engine since I've been dealing with transmission issues. Hopefully those issues are behind me (no pun intended) and I can focus on the engine. I'll post dyno results soon. I hope to get it in at the same shop roadrashrob is using. They seem to be Subaru and MegaSquirt enthusiasts. I'm going to talk with them next week.