Roadracer's #997 build

[RoadRacer]

I had a spare .75 master cylinder and reservoir so I removed the quadrant and converted the clutch pedal back to hydraulic and threw those on. Just need to decide on which hydraulic throwout bearing to use.

[sread]

don't know if you resolved this yet, but if possible you may want to use an oem hyd throw out bearing . no personal experience but it sure seems like a lot of complaints about the aftermarket ones being prone to leaking - and you know what that means - trans has to come out. Might want to keep that in mind when installing the trans tunnel as one of the other well known builders, Eric Treves, I think, swears that the trans will only come out thru the top.
I looked at using one of the external slave setups but there just isn't enough room - at least in my case as it sits right where my size 14 is going to be squeezed in.

[RoadRacer]

don't know if you resolved this yet, but if possible you may want to use an oem hyd throw out bearing . no personal experience but it sure seems like a lot of complaints about the aftermarket ones being prone to leaking - and you know what that means - trans has to come out. Might want to keep that in mind when installing the trans tunnel as one of the other well known builders, Eric Treves, I think, swears that the trans will only come out thru the top.
I looked at using one of the external slave setups but there just isn't enough room - at least in my case as it sits right where my size 14 is going to be squeezed in.

Thanks. Mike Forte tried to pursuade me to go for an external one too - but as you say they take up very precious footroom. So I went with his recommendation for an internal one, a RAM 78125HD. It's still in the mail. In the meantime I hope to work on the hard line for the clutch today.

[RoadRacer]

Still having problem fitting my transmission - or more accurately, my clutch. After converting everything to hydraulic internal thrust bearing I still don't have enough space, and I can't figure out why. I didn't have enough space when using the clutch fork and cable too.. so it seems there's a bigger issue with the parts chosen.

I went ahead and took everything apart, down to removing flywheel, so I could measure everything again and take photos.

The ABC measurements are:

A = block bolt surface to crank flange surface = 18.2mm or 0.7165"
C = flywheel bolt surface to release fingers = 84mm or 3.307"
total A+C = 102.2mm or 4.0236"

B = bellhousing block mating surface to fully retracted bearing face = 95.35mm or 3.7539"

So I'm over a 0.25" short, and I need a gap of .15-.2" on top of that, so I think I need a 0.5" bellhousing spacer?? (and then shim the thrust bearing a smidge)

I sent this off to Mike Forte to see if he can see what I did wrong - can anyone else here see the issue?

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[RoadRacer]

These new pics kinda put into perspective - I pushed the assembled flywheel and clutch onto the gearbox, right up so the fingers touched the release bearing.

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You can see there's a small gap between bellhousing face and flywheel - it measures 11.6mm or 0.457"

But the crank to block face measurement is 18.2mm or 0.7165"!! Ignoring the gap we need, the bellhousing is already 0.259" short.

The total length of bellhousing is 159.32mm or 6.272"

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Just FYI, I measured the thrust bearing too - from back face to thrust face is 42.68mm or 1.68".



Mike's on the case.. we'll talk some more on monday.

[RoadRacer]

Crazy how long this all took to find and fix.. but we got there. I have an installed transmission! lol, talk about a comedy of errors.

So, yes, it wasn't me, or Mike Forte.. just all the parts were at their maximum tolerance it seems. No-one, even RAM clutches, could understand why. I had all the right part numbers. So we started measuring them. For example, the flywheel was .2" thicker than the identical part in the warehouse. 200thou seems a little more than a tolerance issue, but there you are. But there are apparently two versions of the thrust bearing - same part number - that are also .2 different in height. Ram said it was a "running improvement" to a part. SAME PART NUMBER. So they sent me the smaller one.

Suddenly my needed .4" seems doable, yes? But rather than send the flywheel back (heavy!) I got Mike to send me a .25" spacer between bellhousing and transmission. So I got my needed .45 from a smaller thrust bearing and a spacer in the end.

trans-Spacer.jpg smaller-thrust.jpg

Then I spent 2 hours trying to get the transmission on - wiggle wiggle wiggle - only to give up and take it off again. It was then I realized the crappy plastic alignment tool was wiggly AF, not a precision tool at all, and was not good enough. So I bought a machined steel alignment tool:

alignment-tools.jpg

..And then the transmission slid on easily. I wish I hadn't trusted that plastic tool that came with the clutch, such a time waster. Still, now I have another tool.

Lastly, for my sanity, I peered inside to make sure I had the requisite gap between clutch and bearing - you can zoom in and see the gap..

theres-a-gap.jpg

Just because I'm paranoid at this point, I started the engine to really make sure everything was as it should be, half expecting a big bang and a pile of parts to fall out the bellhousing, haha. But no, it all works

[RoadRacer]

Fun and productive weekend in the garage. I had to remove the gearbox (!) when I realized that the flex line from the thrust bearing was way too long, so I got a 10" one from summit and fitted that instead. Attached the hard line to the firewall using a button head bolt on the inside so I won't notice.

clutch-line.jpg

Filled the transmission with Mobil 1 ATF, fitted the driveshaft (what I'd call the propshaft ), and noticed the handbrake cables were a little close to the UJ at full droop so I drilled and fixed a couple of p-clamps to keep them in place. Miles away at ride height of course.

Then I moved to the pedal box/firewall which needed some work. I had a big clutch cable hole to cover up, and a couple of botched holes from moving my reservoirs up, much earlier in the build. So made a patch panel to cover them all up, and sprayed that to match

ugly-firewall.jpg firewall-patch.jpg

I also fitted the throttle pedal and reworked the hoses for clutch and brake reservoirs, using bolts to hold the reservoirs this time rather than rivets - the rivets were never tight enough and the reservoirs wouldn't stay lined up. Drove me crazy, so I'm glad I'm fixing that! Still waiting for the patch-pabel to dry before putting it all together.

Running out of things that'll stop me go-karting this sucker! I suppose I'll have to finally read and try to understand all those pinion angle threads

[sread]

That's strange - I am installing the TKO to the back of an LS but the instructions for my hyd throw out bearing specifically state that the bearing must be in constant contact with the fingers of the pressure plate at all times - i.e. no gap...in fact it is required to be compressed by 1/8 to 3/8 inch at rest. Mine came from Silver Sport transmissions and uses a Ram flywheel but the bearing is supposed to be an oem part.

[RoadRacer]

That's strange - I am installing the TKO to the back of an LS but the instructions for my hyd throw out bearing specifically state that the bearing must be in constant contact with the fingers of the pressure plate at all times - i.e. no gap...in fact it is required to be compressed by 1/8 to 3/8 inch at rest. Mine came from Silver Sport transmissions and uses a Ram flywheel but the bearing is supposed to be an oem part.

Wow, ok, so it must not be the same across the board. Fascinating! Did you get a sheet that looked like this? This is what I got with the clutch and specifically shows space required, and how to calcucate it.

ARM-spacing-calculation.jpg

P.S. Even more weird, because "compressed fingers" to me means "clutch is disengaging". But oh well!!

[sread]

They give you a diagram similar and require the same measurements but want different dimensions. and the way I understand it is the slave cyl (throw out bearing) will be slightly compressed but not the pressure plate fingers.

[RoadRacer]

I have to say, this is one of my favorite parts of the build - buying and adding the shift knob! So tactile. 2" from Summit fits so good in your hand. Loving the gear stick I picked too. I spent a while sitting and measuring what height/layback to get.

Such a silly thing - a gear knob - but I'm excited to use it! Did you all get something classic like this, or fancier in some way?

shift-knob.jpg

[AJT '33]

I have to say, this is one of my favorite parts of the build - buying and adding the shift knob! So tactile. 2" from Summit fits so good in your hand. Loving the gear stick I picked too. I spent a while sitting and measuring what height/layback to get.

Such a silly thing - a gear knob - but I'm excited to use it! Did you all get something classic like this, or fancier in some way?

shift-knob.jpg

Not a silly thing, I spent dead time figuring out the look I wanted then found by accident a company that makes one off and custom knobs, found one I liked and integrated it into my hand built shifter, turned out great, it was what I used to complete the rest!
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[RoadRacer]

Ha, Thanks AJT - well your build is something amazing and different again. So much attention to the little things!

[RoadRacer]

Finally got the reservoirs reworked and finished plumbing the clutch. Reverse bled clutch until no air left but it’s tricky to bleed since the bleed line leaks everywhere when you undo the bleed screw. Did I use enough “bleed” yet?

Anyway I guess there’s still air somewhere coz I jacked up the rear and jumped in to see if I can finally drive this thing.. the clutch pedal seemed awful easy even by hand but I can see the thrust bearing moving so progress.. but the clutch isn’t fully disengaging. I did see the rear wheels moving though.

[peterh226]

Finally got the reservoirs reworked and finished plumbing the clutch. Reverse bled clutch until no air left but it’s tricky to bleed since the bleed line leaks everywhere when you undo the bleed screw. Did I use enough “bleed” yet?

Anyway I guess there’s still air somewhere coz I jacked up the rear and jumped in to see if I can finally drive this thing.. the clutch pedal seemed awful easy even by hand but I can see the thrust bearing moving so progress.. but the clutch isn’t fully disengaging. I did see the rear wheels moving though.

Submerge the end in fluid while you push the pedal. Then at least close while still submerged. That was what we did at build school and it worked great.

[RoadRacer]

Submerge the end in fluid while you push the pedal. Then at least close while still submerged. That was what we did at build school and it worked great.

Thanks Peter, yep I'll try the traditional bleed technique and hopefully get better results. I'll have to rope the wife in..

[RoadRacer]

It moves!! Finally. It’s been two years since I started the motor.. hard to believe. But my startup put a serious pause on the project and then the transmission gave me a few months of problems. But here we are and it feels good!

[JOP33]

Awesome & congrats!

[Straversi]

Congratulations. Sounds fantastic.
-Steve

[TxMike64]

Outstanding! Sounds great!
Let me know hen you're ready for visitors!

-Mike

[RoadRacer]

Outstanding! Sounds great!
Let me know hen you're ready for visitors!

-Mike

I would say "anytime!".. but of course we're not allowed to But soon!

[RoadRacer]

Now I'm gokarting, I really don't like my choice of steering wheel, so I ordered a more racey one with a thick suede rim. Also a quick release adapter. I'll post pics when they come and show how they work.

In other news, I finally placed my order for stage 2! I can't believe it's been 3 years since getting my stage 1. Bloody startups! Of course, I have no idea how COVID is affecting kit builds and deliveries nowadays.. could be months until I get it.

[FF33rod]

Great news! I wonder what they're sending since you have a gen1 chassis....

[RoadRacer]

Great news! I wonder what they're sending since you have a gen1 chassis....

I asked - he said that they can still make it work with some substitutions: "we do have retrofit parts that will go with the current stage 2 kits"

But, yeah, will be interesting how many improvements I'll be getting from what is shown in my 2R manual

[RoadRacer]

Got the new Jegs Quick Release Hub for my new wheel, it just bolts onto the ididit/gm column. I'll see how the Jegs steering wheel horn button will integrate when that gets here - for now I just removed the white plastic part to get this slid on for testing.

On the good side, no welding required. On the bad side.. I need to make up a cover for the internals of the column. But it works!

qrhub1.jpg qrhub2.jpg555-70438.jpg

[RoadRacer]

I got my stage 2 date - 7/11! What is that, 8 weeks?

[RoadRacer]

Ah, interestingly.. on the order they have added two new items to solve something with gen1/gen2 incompatibility (gen1 stage 1, gen2 stage 2) - anyone know what this means, and if there's a thread about this? Couldn't find one..

gen12-1.png

gen12-2.png

[wallace18]

The frames are very different. These panels will hide the gaps for you.

[FF33rod]

You have a gen 1 frame that does not dip down at the forward part of the door sill. Look like they'll send you a Gen 2 body which does dip down. You will have to cut the "dipped" part of the door sill out and put these parts in it's place to cover the top of the Gen 1 frame....

Steve

[RoadRacer]

Gotcha Steve, thanks. Makes sense.

I have seen the dip, but was expecting more issues around the new door hinging that I remember reading about. I thought the door/chassis attachments were quite different now.

From the an article at the time:

FFR added more curvature to the body by an inch, which reportedly allows better door-hinge construction and window access during assembly. You’ll also find that the new Gen 2 doors are wider by 0.8-inch.

I'm excited, regardless. I'll make it work somehow.

If anyone has done this gen2 on gen1 thing I'd love to read about it.

[FF33rod]

FFR replaced both my Gen1 doors with Gen 2 doors. Used all the Gen 1 hardware, hinges, etc and it worked fine. I can say that inside the door, there is no extra room in a Gen 2 door vs Gen 1...

Steve

[RoadRacer]

Today I messed around with some wiring for a change. I adjusted the clutch switch to only allow the starter when clutch sufficiently disengaged, and then I tested the TKO600 wiring to see how their neutral safety wiring worked - it was perfect! It works the same as the loomm needs - it's connected until the gears are starting to touch, then disconnects. So all I had to do was run two more wires up the rear loom and over to the pedal box, and wired it in parallel with the clutch safety.

Now, the starter needs either the clutch in, or the gearbox out of gear. I did consider going for the double safety of needing both, but it didn't make sense to me. Thos way I chose I can still start the car from outside if it's out of gear. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One more thing - I finally tried those new self-solder/heatshrink connectors that I saw advertised. I was skeptical, but they actually worked very well, and better than crimping. Surprising! The solder did indeed melt with a heat gun, and gave a tight good looking connection. I installed my own heatshrink over it too, just in case, but I was happy with them.

Kuject.png

[RoadRacer]

I played with my drive train alignment today for the first time. I just used my iphone as a digital level, so not sure how accurate it is. Used the Tremec app to help me.

To start, I measured the transmission was 0.7^, the driveshaft was 1v and the pinion was 5v.. so I'm way off. I rotated the pinion using the top link (3 link here) to bring it back a few degrees, but was running out of thread on the bar, so I also raised the transmission another inch. That brought me to 1v, 0.5^, 1.5v for the measurements which seems close enough. The UJ angles are 1.5 and 2 (goal is 2 i believe), and the front/rear are .5 out of alignment. Does this look good to you, or did I miss something?

A few things though..

1. not sure of the accuracy of the phone, but I suppose I'm only caring about relative angles so shouldnt matter
2. rotating the pinion those few degrees brought the shock very close to touching the bracket, so I may need to use the holesaw trick. I hadn't heard of that when I installed my rear. realizing that the rear will twist even more under power, so yeah, I need to make some clearance.
3. it also made the top link wind out a bunch on the thread, not sure what I need to do here. I'll see how much is still engaged
4. I need to make up a new spacer for the transmission - and it's now quite high up and close to the top of the hoops, not the floor! I am running 4" and 3.5" ride height admittedly.. I may have to raise that, don't want the driveshaft hitting the rear hoop under compression.

[RoadRacer]

Ok this makes more sense.. I raised the rear up an inch (it was at lowest point on shock), to make rear chassis 5.2" ish ride height.

Suddenly this changed many things. I can shorten the top link.. engaging more thread. I can remove some spacer from transmission, making it more sane. And the driveshaft is now centered vertically in both front and rear hoop.

The angles for now are even closer front-rear, within .2 now, but the UJ angles did increase a little to 2.5 both ends, but still under 3 which I think is the guideline. It all "fits" much better now though.

Moral of the story (duh) set your rideheight first. To be fair, I do want it as low as possible, but it's also nice to have a rake on these. I'll make final decision when I get the body.

[RoadRacer]

Got the new Jegs Quick Release Hub for my new wheel, it just bolts onto the ididit/gm column. I'll see how the Jegs steering wheel horn button will integrate when that gets here - for now I just removed the white plastic part to get this slid on for testing.

On the good side, no welding required. On the bad side.. I need to make up a cover for the internals of the column. But it works!

qrhub1.jpg qrhub2.jpg555-70438.jpg

So I found this awesome cover. A 1/4" smaller than the 4" column so it stretches to fit,and stays on smooth. Compare the before pics above to these.. terrible pics but you get the idea.

cover1.jpg cover2.jpg 41229psku.jpg

[RoadRacer]

Waiting on stage 2, and can't drive cos I'm waiting for my new steering wheel, so I thought I'd plan the floor/tunnel. I always wanted to copy Tim Collins' trans tunnel idea to maximize the foot room, so now my TKO600 is in I can work on this.

Tim's dimensions didn't quite match mine, I assume because of coyote vs SBC, so I sat in car and played with how the cupholders will work, in relation to the gearstick, and how high I want the elbow pad to be.

I also ordered some Dorman 41001 rubber cup inserts to make these stainless 3.5" cupholders much more effective at gripping various size cups.

cupholders.jpg dorman41001.jpg

That's where the cupholders will be, at that height and location, sitting in the new higher aluminum tunnel. There will be a 12" high elbow rest behind them, and I'll build a complete new tunnel going forward.

I also played with the handbrake to move it closer to the new tunnel, by turning around the brackets - moved it a good couple inches inboard and it still works well. Some 6061T6 should be delivered here on Monday to start building it up.

ebrakeadj1.jpg ebrakeadj2.jpg

[RoadRacer]

I received my new steering wheel today - had to swap from the Jegs one to this Grant 8548 because the Jegs was back ordered for another month (already waited a month!). The grant one was $30 more, but probably better quality.

steering1.jpg steering2.jpg steering3.jpg

Anyway, I like it. Much fatter and more comfortable, and more in keeping with the look I want now. I just need to fill the hole with another cap of some kind but I'm getting good at finding weird cap thingies.

So there you go, a racing wheel with disconnect and no welding on a hotrod! Happy happy

[RoadRacer]

Quick drive around neighborhood. Had wrong SD card in so only first 2 minutes captured - and the gopro sounds weird when I lift-off.. not a fan of this crunchy sound it records! Didn't sound like that in real life. Cars driving nicely so far, getting lightly into third. Taking it easy with the throttle until I can find more room!

[TxMike64]

Sounds pretty good! My son was laughing at your "seat"!

[JimLev]

Sounded pretty good to me too.
That removable (while your driving) steering wheel was pretty cool too.