Gator's 818R

[jforand]

Holy Cow!!!

I get that it came on fast, but you could certainly see it coming. I am really surprised they had you on the track for that. Over in the SE all the groups I run with are pretty quick to call it as they don't want corner workers out there with the risk of lightening (many of your stations appeared to be empty). That being said, I did have one outing with NASA at Road Atlanta that got really ridiculous with the rain and visibility. You mentioned you were familiar with RA so picture the bottom of the esses. Massive rain events blowing through making it impossible to see flag stations from time to time, but the real issue is the time lag for the water to make it to the low spots. I was following a corvette and formulating the mental decision to pull off regardless of the session's status. Well, the rain slaked off and the vette kept going.....so I decided to circle one more time. I was very glad to be behind the vette this time through the bottom of the esses the puddle had grown and water came up over the top of his car, quite literally submarining it. I took the opportunity to shoot for the displaced water hole. Needless to say we both came in after that one.

[Santiago]

Wow indeed! I've seen critters and tree branches on track before, but never an onslaught of tumbleweeds. Crazy.

You have to admit though, that's a pretty darn tough piece of cardboard you taped to the dash having survived all that. =)

[Sgt.Gator]

Wow indeed! I've seen critters and tree branches on track before, but never an onslaught of tumbleweeds. Crazy.

You have to admit though, that's a pretty darn tough piece of cardboard you taped to the dash having survived all that. =)

Lol, the cardboard was an attempt to see if a hood would make the Defi -Link gauges readable in the sunlight with sunglasses on....it didn't. If anybody wants the Defi gauges and control module I'll be happy to sell them soon.

[Flamshackle]

such cool videos! thanks for keeping my build dream alive! haha. just awesome.

[Sgt.Gator]

The tranny cooler system in Update II was a fail. So we upgraded it by building a collector into the passenger side scoop that's just in front of the rear tire. We ran brake duct hose back to shroud around the cooler. We thought that the scoop would send flow thru the duct, thru the cooler and out the back. I ssumed that the side scoop pressure would be stronger than the rear of the car pressure. I quickly learned on the track that was a bad assumption, in 10 laps the tranny was 260 degrees.
So breaking out my IR thermometer was very educational. It papers the air in the duct was either completely stagnant of was actually running in reverse.

The shroud around the cooler, 237 degrees:


The brake duct between the scoop and the cooler shroud, 155 degrees:



The scoop inlet, 84 degrees:



Next post, we try another mod.

[autostang]

That is interesting. I have my side scoop ducted to feed my intercooler in the stock location and definitely get air flow through the system. It's not quite the same as an oil cooler, but my intake temps after the intercooler are within 5 degrees of ambient under normal driving (no/minimal boost). It heats up anytime I am at a stop then cools right back down when moving.

[Hobby Racer]

A few things stand out to me.

1. The side scoop has FFR's restrictive grating in place that blocks air entering the duct. You need to remove the grating to encourage air flow.
2. The scoop needs to be enlarged to the max size, knife edging the outer edge to grab free air. You should get rid of the aluminum trim plate and trim the fiberglass to get as close to the edge as you can.
3. The brake duct is quite long, adding a lot of restriction to flow

A well placed GoPro and some string/yarn in the air duct will tell you a lot about the flow and its intensity. You only need to drive around the block to see if things are working well.

Just my $0.02

[Sgt.Gator]

A few things stand out to me.

1. The side scoop has FFR's restrictive grating in place that blocks air entering the duct. You need to remove the grating to encourage air flow.
2. The scoop needs to be enlarged to the max size, knife edging the outer edge to grab free air. You should get rid of the aluminum trim plate and trim the fiberglass to get as close to the edge as you can.
3. The brake duct is quite long, adding a lot of restriction to flow

A well placed GoPro and some string/yarn in the air duct will tell you a lot about the flow and its intensity. You only need to drive around the block to see if things are working well.

Just my $0.02

Good ideas. We've already moved on to a different path. That side scoop now feeds cold air to the intake instead. Pics soon.

[Frank818]

Yeah I'm interested in seeing that!

[Sgt.Gator]

Yeah I'm interested in seeing that!

Here you go!
The air enters the side scoop, is ducted in flexible tube to a K&N Apollo air filter, then out the filter thru flexible duct to the stock intake path where the maf normally resides. I runa speed density tune so no need for a maf housing:

....

[Sgt.Gator]

I went up to Portland International last weekend for the Friday Test & Tune with the intent of racing in Saturday Enduro if the car ran well. It didn't, the trans overheated in 15 mins, hitting 255 degrees both sessions. Also the car is down on power compared to cars in classes I should be able to out accelerate. Specifically the Spec E46 cars were walking away from me as we accelerated down the front and back straights. They are 2850 lb cars with spec 225 HP engines. (12.6l bs/hp). I'm at 2260 lbs all in race wight with 226 HP (by dyno tune numbers). I should be the one walking away from them. I pulled up my VBOX data, I was accelerating from 50-100 mph in 12 seconds. My STI in the same places at PIR accelerates from 50-100 mph in it's 8.5 lbs/hp tune in 6.5 to 7 seconds.
Something is not right. I don't have the math skills but I'm sure there is a way to calculate HP to drive a 2260 lb car from 50 to 100 mph in 12 seconds.
We are unsure if whatever is causing the extra friction in the trans and overheating it is also causing the performance problem, or if the dyno is reading high (meaning it reads 226 HP but I'm really at 200 HP). First, we have to cure the trans heat issue, then we'll work on the power/tune issue.

The good news is the car corners better than I expected with the 200 TW street tires, Toyo R1Rs. Once we have the right power setting and the trans heat is solved I should be on the podium in the enduro P1 class races (as long as nothing breaks).

I also have to get a 16 gallon fuel cell for sure. 16 gals matches the OEM 2005 WRX/STI tank size, good for class racing rules. Or I have to be sure to have a pit crew to re-fuel even in a 1 hour race. My Boyd tank is only good for 43 mins at PIR. Both Fuel Safe and Pyrotect are here in Bend. The Fuel Safe guys are itching to design a fuel cell for the 818 so that will be an off season project for us.

More good news, my new helmet eliminates the wind buffeting. No longer do I feel like my head is being pulled off my shoulders. The wing and duckbill make a huge difference. Bell GTX3.

The COVID rules were a pain in the rear! Despite the rules quite a few drivers came by to say how cool the car looks. In the grid I was asked several times what kind of car it is and comments on how good it looks. Well I may not be fast but I look doing doing it!

[Mulry]

That's frustrating. We're chasing down a MAF problem right now (may hit you up for some speed density tips if we can't get the MAF to deliver). We've installed a trans cooler with a pusher fan that we're planning to route to the side scoop, hopefully the forced air will make a difference since apparently that scoop isn't especially a high pressure zone. Our intake is through the front hoop like on the Porsche RS Spyder.

Really wish that FFR hadn't just dropped the baby on this project. Glad to hear that about the helmet though!

[Sgt.Gator]

Image Courtesy of ZF Design

Red line would be fluid level inside the 5 speed as OEM mounted in a WRX, with the tail down.
Blue line is a 7* angle This represents the fluid level in an 818 if the trans is installed per Factory Five assembly instruction.
Magenta line is 7* angle but filled 1.5" above the full mark.

Factory transmissions have roughly a 5.3-5.9* tail down slope from Subaru (5mt, 6mt, auto)
The Factory Five installation has a 3.5* to 4.5* tail up slope in an 818.

It's pretty clear that Subaru designed (Red line) it so the fluid would be level right at the axle seals, and just touching the bottoms of all the gears. When we install the trans in an 818 (Blue line) the oil barely touches the first set of gears, and by the time we get to 5th it's dry as a bone.
Overfilling helps but still doesn't reach 5th gear. And it submerges the forward gears, ring & pinion, and front diff in a lot of fluid, causing more parasitic losses and probably foaming. It also increases the chances of axle seal weeping.

If you are following the 818R forum and my thread there on tracking your tranny temps, you've seen Fate066's post on what his shop has seen on 818 five speeds come in for repair. FYI, Fate066 is Zach at ZF Design in Colorado. He has re-built both my STI 6 speed and now my 818R 5 speed and is working with me to determine why I'm seeing such high temps. He thinks it's caused by the lack of oil in the tail section. He created this image in his CAD program to illustrate the problem. You can see more about his shop on Facebook, ZF Design.

So our next steps are to lower the rear of the tranny as much as possible to get near the OEM slope. If needed we will raise the front motor mounts. And finally overfill if needed. We hope to have this done by the end of next week so we can test the temps at ORP at our next club track days July 3-4-5. Fingers crossed!

[Frank818]

Your scoop filling the air filter is AWESOME!
But how good could that be if your trans overheats... you seem to have the exact type of issue I have been facing in the past years: super weird things going on. These are *****es.

I hope you get get that fixed, I have not heard of anyone else with the same issue, is it me who just didn't read their posts or you have something different from them on your setup?

[Sgt.Gator]

Your scoop filling the air filter is AWESOME!
But how good could that be if your trans overheats... you seem to have the exact type of issue I have been facing in the past years: super weird things going on. These are *****es.

I hope you get get that fixed, I have not heard of anyone else with the same issue, is it me who just didn't read their posts or you have something different from them on your setup?

There have been plenty of 5 speed failures. it's usually blamed on the weak 5 speed design with the 75mm shafts vs the 6 Speed 85mm shafts and heavy duty case. No doubt some failure are that issue, but how many builders have a temp gauge sensor in the trans? Hardly any. I didn't unitl I rebuilt my failed 5 speed. Many builders have raised their trans, or lowered the tail a little bit, mine was not. It was one of the first builds before this issue was really thought thru. Now I'm fixing it.

In the 818R forum thread I thought it was only a track issue. But now seeing Fate066's image I think it applies to all 818s, it's just the track 818s that see it more prominently.

[Frank818]

I understand better, it was an excellent decision to fit that temp gauge! Would anyone with the same issue be able to hear the noise difference between 1st and 5th? I mean does a dry gear make noise in a way you can tell it's lacking oil vs a wet gear cutting through enough oil?

[Sgt.Gator]

I understand better, it was an excellent decision to fit that temp gauge! Would anyone with the same issue be able to hear the noise difference between 1st and 5th? I mean does a dry gear make noise in a way you can tell it's lacking oil vs a wet gear cutting through enough oil?

I've never noticed a noise. The quick solution is to drive around a while then check around your trans with an IR thermometer. See https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ter-or-a-Gauge

it's a good idea to check your air intake tract and around the engine too.

[Mulry]

What are you using as the return from your trans oil cooler? I haven't had our trans open for years, so I don't remember the tailstock plate situation all that well, but I wonder if drilling and tapping a hole on that plate would provide good lubrication at the top of the hill (so to speak) so that all the gears and seals remain sufficiently lubricated.

[Sgt.Gator]

What are you using as the return from your trans oil cooler? I haven't had our trans open for years, so I don't remember the tailstock plate situation all that well, but I wonder if drilling and tapping a hole on that plate would provide good lubrication at the top of the hill (so to speak) so that all the gears and seals remain sufficiently lubricated.

It dumps directly on top of 5th gear:



The blue and yellow lines were me playing with a level to figure out if I fill it this high in the tail, where does that show up front on the stick?



If lowering the tail and raising the front doesn't fix it then there's something internally wrong. I've ordered a JDM import 5 speed to have as a spare. If this one overheats we'll swap in the JDM trans while we ship this one back to ZF. And we'll see if the JDM runs hot too. Having a spare 5 speed is a necessity for something like the 25Hour THill anyway, and they are really cheap compared to even my tow costs to some races.

[Sgt.Gator]

It looks like we can drop the tail 3 - 3.5". We cut out the frame X under the trans and are adding a new tail mount, then re-doing the support under the trans. We'll also have to put a small cutout in the diffuser, and a mod to a diagonal brace to clear the exhaust. Pics soon. Then off to ORP for testing next weekend to see if all this really matters.

[Flamshackle]

It looks like we can drop the tail 3 - 3.5". We cut out the frame X under the trans and are adding a new tail mount, then re-doing the support under the trans. We'll also have to put a small cutout in the diffuser, and a mod to a diagonal brace to clear the exhaust. Pics soon. Then off to ORP for testing next weekend to see if all this really matters.

Mate this could be an important mod, thanks for sharing

[aquillen]

It looks like we can drop the tail 3 - 3.5". We cut out the frame X under the trans and are adding a new tail mount, then re-doing the support under the trans. We'll also have to put a small cutout in the diffuser, and a mod to a diagonal brace to clear the exhaust. Pics soon. Then off to ORP for testing next weekend to see if all this really matters.

Like to see your pics on this. I got almost an inch this way which was pretty simple - see post #42

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...18-build/page2

[Santiago]

Yeah, I'm all for minimizing the cut/chop work, but I don't see any way to get the angle needed without something like this sort of effort.

The challenge is that to recoup the 7° delta over a 26-27" span (the distance from engine mount to trans mount), you need a 3.25" to 3.5" drop. Raise the engine or lower the trans as you like, it has to add up to a difference of about 3.5" over the FFR set up.

Looking forward to seeing pics! [And here I thought I was done with my cut-n-weld phase...]

[Sgt.Gator]

Trans is in on the new mount. It sits at a 1.6 degree tail down slope now. Not quite as good as oem in a WRX. The only way to get more is to raise the front motor mounts. We'll try it here for now. As you can see in the pics the diffuser will have to be trimmed to let the new mount thru it. The CV axles angle up towards the wheels now, but not too bad.
One plus with this new system we are making a place to jack the rear of the car up with a single jack. We are also adding side lift jack hard-points that slide in at the roll bar base. Pics soon on that.
We're doing a bunch of other work on data logging with a new AIM dash/logger.
And a surprise wing mod.
We have three days of test & tune time at ORP this weekend, hopefully the trans will be a non issue now. I'm not 100% convinced this will fix it, we have to try this first though before shipping it back for another tear down. I've ordered a spare 4.44 five speed in case this doesn't work.

NewTrans Mount 1.jpg NewTrans Mount 2.jpg NewTrans Mount 3.jpg NewTrans Mount 4.jpg NewTrans Mount 5.jpg NewTrans Mount 6.jpg NewTrans Mount 7.jpg NewTrans Mount 8.jpg

[Frank818]

The CV axles angle up towards the wheels now, but not too bad.

HAHAHAHAHA!! Have you seen mine?? You are WAY ok on that one, trust me! Don't worry a bit about it.

[Sgt.Gator]

We are testing a AIM MXM dash/datalogger. It is by far the least expensive combo dash/datalogger AIM sells. AIM loaned it to my tuner because they weren't sure how well it would work with a JDM ECU from 2002, so we are testing and providing them feedback. So far it looks like ot will work fine. But we won't know for sure until this weekend.

What we are logging: We used up the 4 analog inputs with Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Crankcase Pressure, Transmission Temperature. On the bus we will have wideband AFR, boost, and all the usual data for tuning.

The dry sump is a hybrid venting system. It's not sealed, nor is it open. As long as the DS pump can keep up with crankcase blow-by and create a vacuum, the block is "sealed". If blow-by becomes too much and the crankcase starts to go positive a one way valve opens up in the vent line and it now is an open system venting to the DS tank and out a vent overflow bottle. On the line before the one way valve we have a AEM sensor that is data logging to the AIM dash.

In this image you can see our remote mount oil pressure sensor getting pressure off the front oil port, and the crankcase pressure sensor remote mounted with a line to the vent system in front of the one way valve.

oil and boost vac sensors 818.jpg

If you haven't thought about why you might want to at least have a gauge on your dash monitoring crankcase pressure this Flatirons video does a good job explaining it:

[Sgt.Gator]

I am happy to report that the transmission tail lowering worked! And not a little, I mean hugely. I ran multiple sessions all day, the hottest the tranny got was 189 degrees. I'm still at the track and will run thru another set of sessions tomorrow, but I'm very confidant now that the trans temp issue is solved.

The only change from the last track day was lowering the tail of the trans to approximately negative 1.6 degrees. I am amazed it made that much difference. I was skeptical this would work but based on Fate066's recommendation (Zach at ZF Design) we went for it and he was right.

Kudos to Fate066 of ZF Design for helping me work thru this issue, and kudos to Josh and Alec at Arcflash LLC in Bend for the fabrication work and sticking with me thru long days and nights of doing and redoing their work.

I consider this a must mod not just for the 818Rs being tracked but all 818s on the street too. I consider it a basic design fail that FF needs to address in the frames they are building now.

Here's the mount hanging below the diffuser. We are going to add a wedge shape around it to get the smooth flow back under the car.




Gator's doing the Happy Dance Tonight!

[Santiago]

That's fantastic news Gator! Very glad to hear it...not so glad it means I'm walking towards my chassis again, grinder in hand with bad intentions.

I'll second that this is a "basic design fail that FF needs to address in the frames they are building now." Even with coolers in play bringing the fluid temp down, 5th gear hardly enjoys it. Heck, I'm still hot sitting poolside roasting in the sun, if I can't jump in the pool.

[Santiago]

Quick Q: Seems that the easiest place to take a consistent measurement is off of the trans back-plate that FFR supplied to cap the trans (totally flat, same on everyone's car). So is that the frame of reference for your -1.6° measurement, and if not, could you take a measurement off of that plate?

Thanks and congrats again!

[Frank818]

HURRAY!!!! Gator has done it again! One try to fix the issue and you nailed it! We love those.

Happy 4th, man! And Happy 818!

[Sgt.Gator]

Quick Q: Seems that the easiest place to take a consistent measurement is off of the trans back-plate that FFR supplied to cap the trans (totally flat, same on everyone's car). So is that the frame of reference for your -1.6° measurement, and if not, could you take a measurement off of that plate?

Thanks and congrats again!

Yes, the backplate is where we measure the change.

[Sgt.Gator]

A quick Trans Temp update: We ran 5 sessions today, none were more than 20 minutes because we were primarily engine and aero testing, but more good news, I don't think we saw over 169 degrees on the trans temp monitor!

We verified the sensor temp with an IR thermometer. The trans case next to the exhaust was 200 degrees. The trans case on the opposite side was 133 degrees. So if the average temp of the oil is between the two we get 166.5 degrees.

[Sgt.Gator]

Arcflash LLC installed side lifts jacking points on the 818, the same as we have on the STI. On the 818 there is only one per side, tied into the main roll hoop to frame. Much easier to change tires and even get on the lift now.

IMG_20200702_175734214.jpg..IMG_20200702_175739635.jpg

[Hobby Racer]

Arcflash LLC installed side lifts jacking points on the 818, the same as we have on the STI. On the 818 there is only one per side, tied into the main roll hoop to frame. Much easier to change tires and even get on the lift now.

Ok. I've been fighting the need for an easier way to lift the car. Now I have to cut a hole in the pretty body and do a side lift point like your.

[Sgt.Gator]

Ok. I've been fighting the need for an easier way to lift the car. Now I have to cut a hole in the pretty body and do a side lift point like your.

I got the idea from Retro Racing when we were at the Cascade Enduro. They use square tube and offset it. We went with simple round tube to match what we already have on the STI. Here's Retro's:

818 Side Jack Tool 2.jpg..818 Side Jack Location.jpg..818 Side Jack Tool 1.jpg

[Santiago]

Ok. I've been fighting the need for an easier way to lift the car.

Always too many good ideas here...I was also looking for ways to avoid this, but it looks like more cutting and welding for me too... =)

Is the chassis pocket exactly in-line with the center of gravity or just somewhere close/convenient? How balanced is the car when lifted there?

[Hobby Racer]

Is the chassis pocket exactly in-line with the center of gravity or just somewhere close/convenient? How balanced is the car when lifted there?

I'm curious to know the answer to that as well.

[Sgt.Gator]

Always too many good ideas here...I was also looking for ways to avoid this, but it looks like more cutting and welding for me too... =)

Is the chassis pocket exactly in-line with the center of gravity or just somewhere close/convenient? How balanced is the car when lifted there?

I'm curious to know the answer to that as well.

Balance doesn't matter since both wheels on the opposite side are on the ground. The car can't tilt forward or backwards. That would only come into play if you tried to use two tools and jacks at the same time on both sides of the car.

The tool works great for jacking up one side to remove wheels, or to place wood blocks under each tire/wheel on that side. Say 4" tall blocks. Then do the same on the other side. Now you can get two post lift arms under the car to get it up on the lift.

[Hobby Racer]

Balance doesn't matter since both wheels on the opposite side are on the ground. The car can't tilt forward or backwards.

I was more interested in knowing if the front and rear lift at the same time or does it lift one or the other first. Hence, is the lift point at the balance point of the car front to rear. I'm not trying to lift both sides at once

[Sgt.Gator]

I was more interested in knowing if the front and rear lift at the same time or does it lift one or the other first. Hence, is the lift point at the balance point of the car front to rear. I'm not trying to lift both sides at once

The frame is plenty stiff to keep them both going up. Maybe it's my halo cage extra stiffening, but I'm pretty sure Retro's does the exact same.
Here you go:

...