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Thread: Aj's 818S in Houston

  1. #121
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    We have the power

    Now that the ignition wire from the key to the ECU is hooked up, it actually stays powered up for more than 2 seconds. I can look at values in the ECU in RomRaider Logger. I was able to test the accelerator pedal, coolant probe (heat gun), IAT (heat gun), secondary air pressure (blow baby blow), and a few other things. One thing I'm curious if you guys have any ideas on is my throttle body, it buzzes. I know it's the throttle body because I can unplug it, and the buzzing stops. I homed all of the wires out, they all go where they are supposed to, and the only one that has continuity to ground is PIN3, which according to the wiring diagram just daisy chains to a bunch of other connectors, but Bob's drawings have it going to signal ground. Is it possible the unit is just bad, or maybe just dirty and stuck trying to return to zero? Possibly it's wired up wrong? See video for buzz.


  2. #122
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    Apparently the buzz is very common. Can be fixed with a new throttle body, but should be fine if I can put up with the noise. Probably replace it down the road when I rework the intercooler.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajzride View Post
    Apparently the buzz is very common. Can be fixed with a new throttle body, but should be fine if I can put up with the noise. Probably replace it down the road when I rework the intercooler.
    Subaru 2004 FXT DWB (Drive by wire) sounds
    First thump is ignition on. Second thump is ignition off.
    Hum in the middle is my AWIC water pump.
    turn up the sound for this video.





    If you have noise on the the throttle position sensor feedback signal it will cause the servo to hunt like your video.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 10-29-2019 at 02:43 AM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Subaru 2004 FXT DWB (Drive by wire) sounds
    First thump is ignition on. Second thump is ignition off.
    Hum in the middle is my AWIC water pump.
    turn up the sound for this video.



    If you have noise on the the throttle position sensor feedback signal it will cause the servo to hunt like your video.
    Bob
    So I have a signal issue to clean up? I do a lot of wiring for work, but I'm really out of my element, I'm a CHE by degree, so I've always been winging it. When you say "Noise on the ... feedback signal" that makes me think dirty ground or EMI.

  5. #125

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    Bob has been guiding you so I'll comment but let him take over if he thinks I'm off base. I'll talk about how this works as I understand it, then what would be the things to break. I'm working from a 2006 Impreza wiring and ECM service document, so hoping it matches your info.

    Noise on the feedback signal typically means some electrical interference is getting picked up in the wiring that carries the position sensing signal(s). In this case that would be the two "main" and the two "sub" sensor signal paths. Two each because you have separate physical main and sub signal potentiometers ("pots") in the accelerator pedal and a corresponding pair of main and sub signal pots in the throttle positioner. The "sub" pots are needed for 'redundant' position safety checks. The ECM looks at the accelerator and compares those two pots - they should be sending similar signals and if not - the system goes into a fault mode because the accelerator position sensor pots (position information for either or both) are not trustworthy. A similar check is made between the two pots in the throttle positioner. (not that we care but it is typical for one pot to be increasing its output signal while the other is decreasing its signal regarding resistance/voltage output - but in any event they must track each other in a specific manner).

    More to the point, the main pot for each "end" - i.e. pedal vs throttle position - are compared frequently by the ECM logic and if they do not match within a tolerance then the ECM adjusts the durations of a continuously pulsing on-off voltage drive signal to the throttle positioner motor to correct the mis-match. The motor moves the throttle butterfly valve or "vane", by working against a closure spring to set the vane position. The main throttle pot is keyed to the vane so it reports the vane position back to the ECM for the comparison between ends to complete a control (pedal) & feedback (throttle position) loop.

    So what goes wrong to cause buzzing? The likely culprits in most electronic/mechanical position loops of this style are - mechanical binding/slop or electrical noise, or power supply problems.

    ----

    This system is DC powered, and not from some sort of converted to DC from AC source power such as 60 or 400 Hertz (cycle) power supplies. SO a power supply problem would be below the threshold of likely in my opinion.

    Mechanical binding/slop: One of the fail safe design elements in the throttle body is a spring that will force close the throttle body vane quickly if the motor is not being actively managed by the ECM. So the ECM must continue to supply position drive or the throttle closes immediately. For efficient operation the motor is driven by pulses rather than a DC level voltage. This allows for more position power by the motor (usually geared down too but that's just internal guts stuff) with less power consumption. So the motor and gear train work against an extra load (the spring force). If there is binding or in some cases mechanical slop in the gear/linkage parts, the pulse nature of the drive going to the motor can result in vibration keyed to the pulse rate as the motor/gear train either struggles to move the throttle mechanicals, or it chases the position as the slop keeps the pot position "rattling back and forth" as it follows the mechanical position.

    So you hear this buzzing. The end result is - as long as the assembly can still move as needed, the buzzing is just an observable event. But since you don't know whether it means failure is coming or not, it is a concern. From WEB browsing as I know you've done, you see others run into this with this Subaru system as well. Fixed by replacing the throttle body from what I see. I usually take stuff like this apart and assess whether I trust it, but I know not many are willing or should do this. Maybe I shouldn't either but there it is.

    ----

    Electrical noise: You can go after this without much hassle really. Since you've been doing wiring on the project maybe you do have a ground that is not doing the job. So looking at wiring for an 06 Impreza I see the main signal wires are shielded, but the sub signal wires are mostly not. This suggests to me Subaru is relying on the main pot signals to do the actual positioning and not the sub pot signals (instead just using them for the matching-check function). Those main signals are shielded to minimize noise pickup which could be sourced from almost anything regarding electrical noise, including the adjacent wires that carry the pulse drive to the throttle body, for example. If your wiring is -

    Accelerator main sensor signal - B135-23 ( red )
    Electronic throttle control - Main - B134-18 ( red/blue )

    These are to be shielded cable wires. Locate the shield connections and ensure they are properly wired. The shield wire paths are slightly complicated to verify because while the accelerator pedal wiring shield is simply done directly to the ECM, the throttle body shielding is in three parts - from the ECM to B200/F74 and then another side from engine ground GE-2 with a disconnect between shields split at connector pair F61/E2. For the ECM shielding side the ground is coming from inside the ECM (see ECM B135-1 ( black/white ). Note they tie through to the ECM via joint connector B122 so that should also be verfied by pins to each destination. The additional shield to verify the throttle control connector E57 pins 4 & 6 shielded pair which have a shield tied to the engine at GE-2.

    A very small possibility is that this ECM side shield also ties over to the Test mode connector. That suggests to me just to also verify your problem exists when test mode is NOT connected since additional wiring for that just maybe could insert noise to the shield circuit (if it does fix problem, this suggests the shield wiring is bad or poorly connected somewhere as it should be able to handle the test mode being connected).
    Last edited by aquillen; 10-29-2019 at 07:31 PM.
    Art Quillen

  6. #126
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    Thanks for the very thorough explanation Art, your wiring diagram is correct. I'm inclined to think it is a mechanical issue for several reasons:

    A) The engine is not running so there should not be any interference, fuel injectors, coils, etc are not running.
    B) This seems to be a common issue in many Subarus that is fixed by replacing the TB. If it was electrical a new TB should not fix it.
    C)This seems to be a common issue in many Subarus, even fairly new ones that should have good factory wiring

    As for test mode, I'm not in test mode while experiencing this issue. When I connect the two line connectors for test mode my fans and fuel pump cycle constantly, so I wouldn't even be able to hear this.

    I'll look into how to clean the TB and see if that helps.

    Thanks again.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    I'll take a look around tomorrow. I might have an extra electronic throttle body laying around.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    I'll take a look around tomorrow. I might have an extra electronic throttle body laying around.
    Bob
    That would be awesome Bob, If it fixes my problem I'll be happy to pay you for it otherwise I'll send it on back or to the next person who needs it.

  9. #129
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    I have one if he doesnt

  10. #130
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    Successfully fired the motor up today. When I first put fuel in the tank and primed the fuel rails, I had bad leaks from both fuel rails. A trip to the stealership for new injector o-rings solved that problem. Let the motor idle for about 15 minutes, then revved it up to redline.

    I have an issue with the cooling system, and I'm afraid it means removing the motor again

    Perhaps I am wrong, hoping the more subaru savvy of you can point me in the right direction. The Water pipe on the driver's side of the car is hot (220F) all the way up the radiator, but the passenger side is cold (77F). Since the driver's side is hot that tells me the thermostat is opening (correct?) which means that my water pump is not pumping and pulling cool water from the radiator into the drivers side pipe. With the rad cap off it doesn't look like water is flow. Any ideas on how to fix this without pulling the motor and removing the front cover to inspect the water pump? Something I might have setup wrong externally that would prevent the water pump from moving water?

    Thanks

  11. #131

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    It only takes just a little air in a high spot and the pump won't push the water over it. Get your nose up high and make sure you have the air burped out. Squeeze hoses and listen for gurgly noises = probably air mushing back and forth. These pumps are designed to move fluid but not overcome head pressure, so they get "stopped" by air pockets very easily. You need that throttle bypass hose too - didn't dig through your thread to see if you put it in (FFR kit supplied). That lets some hot coolant get from manifold exit back down to the pump inlet so it can warm up the thermostat to get it to start opening. Otherwise engine must overheat before any chance the thermostat will open and flow coolant normally.
    Art Quillen

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    It only takes just a little air in a high spot and the pump won't push the water over it. Get your nose up high and make sure you have the air burped out. Squeeze hoses and listen for gurgly noises = probably air mushing back and forth. These pumps are designed to move fluid but not overcome head pressure, so they get "stopped" by air pockets very easily.
    Thanks Art, right now the back end is up, not the nose. I'll drop the back-end and raise the front and see if i can get it to burp.

  13. #133
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    Art I think you were spot on with the "moving air" issue. I was able to get the radiator and fan to cool the car down several times, but it's still not working right. Only with the car jacked up at certain angles. I think the issue is my radiator. I bought the Griffin unit to replace the stock unit, it turns out a subaru cooling system works completely backwards from what I'm used to an expecting. And by that I mean that the thermostat is on the supply line and blocks flow from the radiator when closed. Every other car I've ever worked on the thermostat was on the outlet and it keeps water in the block until it's hot and then lets it flow to the radiator. So when I bought my radiator, I bought it for supply in the passenger side and return on the drivers side, which is backwards. So now my supply hose is hooked up to the top of my radiator instead of the bottom, which means that unless my radiator is overflowing, then it is trying to suck air into the system rather than water.

    The way I see it, I have a few options:

    + Add some extra plumbing and just cross over the piping above the steering rack
    + Have a buddy who is supposed to be good at welding aluminum move my water necks around
    + Buy another radiator
    + Open to suggestions

    Radiator Refresh.jpg

  14. #134
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    Proof

  15. #135
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    After much diagraming, measuring, and thinking, I decided to order a new radiator. I was already going to have to modify my fan+shroud assembly to fit, so a new radiator solved that problem as well. Looks like a 1998 3.8V6 Mustang radiator should fit nicely in the opening, and it still has the fill neck on the corner so it won't interfere with my hood modifications.


    Now I am on to the shifter. I'll be using the SW20 unit I picked up off of fleaBay, and need to figure out how to route the cables. I don't think I can have them exit straight back, as that would hit the alternator/AC belt, and I doubt the cable could make a sharp enough turn to avoid it, I'm having a tough enough time keeping the wiring harness out of the belts. I also want to keep things as tight as I can against the rear firewall, so I'm not sure I want to try and route it inside the car to the back corner like Mechie did. I'm really thinking about trying to make something like Art, although I'm not sure I have the mechanical fab skills to do so. Open to ideas from others. Main goal is good shifter feel while preserving ability to put drivers seat all the way back against the firewall.
    Last edited by Ajzride; 11-03-2019 at 10:31 AM.

  16. #136
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    I had a tough time burping mine too, and I have a definite high point near the engine. As Art described, rock it, squeeze the hoses, whatever you can to manually fill the whole system. Not quite sure what "helped" most, but between the efforts and a couple small holes in the thermostat skirt- all is well in mine. Having the rad. outlet on the top looks problematic- head pressure on the inlet makes pumps happy, having to "lift" on the inlet is where they struggle. Good luck!
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

  17. #137
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    Ditto what has been said. Multiple times (at least 7) raising and lowering the rear end while running the engine until the fans come on. Every time I get another big burp of air out and can shove in more coolant. Squeezing the hoses also helps move things along for sure.

  18. #138
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    This picture is the setup that i have. No bleeding or burping necessary. I just run one heat cycle and top off the degas tank.
    In place of the swirl tank shown in this picture I use wayne's mod to automatically sucks any air out of the top of the engine.
    I have another 5/16 hose hose from the top of the radiator that sucks air out of the top of the radiator. The small hose from the radiator tees together with wayne's mod to go into the subaru degas tank. I think this sketch is for a Pantera. edit (I did put a 1/16 pill in wayne's mod hose to force some of the suction to pull from the radiator.)


    Cooling_Systemx800_zps36134270-1.jpg
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 11-04-2019 at 07:25 PM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  19. #139
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    Dont open the cap on the radiator after you begin the process. Only fill from the coolant overflow tank.

  20. #140
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    Thanks for all the input on bleeding the system guys. I'm changing the radiator because I'm positive it will never work with the feed for the pump being at the highest point in the system. Once I get the rad changed, I should be able to bleed it much easier with all of the tips.

  21. #141
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    Stuck in a hotel on the road for a few days, so I've dug really deep into my digital dash solution I'm wanting to utilize. My initial idea was to us bluetooth OBD connector and a tablet to display all of the data from the ECU onto the tablet using DashCommand or a similar application. When I was dealing with thinking my ECU was locked and ordering the Tactrix cable etc, it never occurred to me that I wasn't going to be able to get the data I wanted because Subaru only supports the most basic OBD parameters, and all the good stuff is hidden via SSM (hence why you need the expensive Tactrix cable or a Cobb AP). There are companies that sell digital dashes that have analog and digital inputs on them that you wire up, and then they display them on a nice LCD screen. The cheapest I have found is about $1,250 and the one I would really like is almost $2,000. I started to look at other methods of being able to pull the SSM data into a tablet. Once method would be to use my Tactrix to access the data and use a Windows 10 based tablet and then code some application that would display all of the data into a dash. I'm not really a fan of using a windows device as a primary function of my car, just not stable enough. I then ran across several device that would take raw analog signals and cover them into an OBD signal, and those were reasonalbly priced (about $250), but then I would still have to wire up all of those signal and they are already in the ECU... so why should I do that. I then decided what I really needed was a SSM to OBD adapter, which I figured I should be able to make from either an Aurdino or Raspberry PI. After a few hours of reading and researching, I stumbled across someone who has already done it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfkFrv7F5E4&t=1s

    Although the author has been unresponsive replying to comments on youtube, I did find where his code has been uploaded to GitHub. I've ordered what I think are most of the components I need to put this together, and I'll begin working on a proof of concept next week.

    Once I get it worked out, I'll put up a thread in the electrical section with all the details for anyone else who wants to follow suit.

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  23. #142
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    Well Drats

    Remember when I had that brilliant plan to reuse the deleted TGV position inputs on the ECU to pickup the blinkers and display them on my digital dash.........


    IMG_3516.JPG

    guess it was a bad idea.

  24. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajzride View Post
    Remember when I had that brilliant plan to reuse the deleted TGV position inputs on the ECU to pickup the blinkers and display them on my digital dash.........


    IMG_3516.JPG

    guess it was a bad idea.
    The TGV inputs are 0 to 5 volt signals. The turn signals are 12 volt. Is this what happened?
    here is a Magic Smoke refill kit: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/10622
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 11-08-2019 at 11:34 PM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  25. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    The TGV inputs are 0 to 5 volt signals. The turn signals are 12 volt. Is this what happened?
    Bob
    Exactly what happened. I assumed everything on a car was 12V, turns out I was wrong.

  26. #145
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    Cooling Air and Water

    Took on a few small projects with limited time this weekend.

    First was getting my radiator squared away. The new mustang unit i ordered looked like shoaled fit, but it had a few odd appendages hanging off the sides that were hitting the frame, so I decided to try and use the one I had and get the coolant pipes crossed over. I spent an hour at the auto parts store looking at tons of hoses and found one that worked perfectly on the supply, but the return was always going to be a long shot. I wound up ordering another 48" section of the stainless flex hose used that to hook up the return. I just need one more power grip to close up the cooling system and then I can try to re-burp the system (once I have a new ECU).

    Cooling Maze'.jpg

    I was also unable to find a replacement TMIC at a reasonable price, so i had started to look at a FMIC instead, but didn't want to have to deal with the waste gate and more piping, so I decided to take on the tedious task of trying to straighten all the finds on mine which got hit with a power washer. The fins were folded over so hard I couldn't get a small flat-head or needle nose pliers on them, so I 3D printed a triangle shaped rod the same size as the openings (1.5mm x 5mm) and pushed it in through the back side to open the fins back up. I broke several of the rods but finally got all of the fins straightened up and open. It's not pretty, none of them are nice and straight on top, but all of the openings are free and it should move plenty of air.

    TMIC Pick.jpg

    TMIC Bottom.jpg

    TMIC Top.jpg

  27. #146
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    Side Project

    I've actually been spending a ton of time on the 818, but I've not been posting a lot run the build thread for a few reasons. One is that I'm try9in got break out projects that might be useful to others into side threads. It is really hard to search for specific topics and cool mods when they are buried in build-threads that are 25+ pages long. I've started a thread for the SSM to Can-Bus adapter, I had one for the Coach-One wiring harness, and later tonight I'll start one on my solid-linkage shift setup. The other reason I've been short on post is that there is a lot of stuff mid-progress. Now unlike Art, I can't wait to finish a project before I post progress, but I'm likely doing something wrong and need you guys to stop me before I screw up, but there are some things that it just doesn't make sense to post partial information on.

    One thing I've mostly wrapped up is modifying the fuel distribution Y-Block. It came with the car from the previous owner, and apparently it's a very pricey setup, at over $500 for the aluminum block, 2 fuel rails, and the 4 hoses. I'm not sure why it's so freaking expensive, but now that the system is setup for it, I can't find an alternative that would not require reconfiguring the fuel delivery system. The problem I have with it is that it came with 5 NPT to AN adapters, and the NPT side of them leak, all 5 of them. I even bought an NPT tap and re-tapped all 5 holes, and I've tried several sealants with no luck. I've finally had enough of it and decided to covert to ORB to AN fittings. I used some JB-Weld High heat (should stand up to powder coating) to fill in each of the holes. To make sure I didn't get the JBWeld too far down in there, I taped 4 #12 wires together and stuffed them in from the backside. After I had put the JBWeld in (It's a putty) I pulled the wires out. Here are some pics of one side re-tapped.

    PA Y-Block.jpg

    JBWeld.jpg

    Drilled.jpg

    Tapped.jpg

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    Today I decided to start working on fabbing up a bracket for my VW rear brake calipers. I wanted to pull off the existing backing plate, but it looks like that is not possible without pressing out the bearings? That just doesn’t seem right. But I watched a ton of YouTube videos and my setup looks nothing like the 2006 WRX I can find, it appears to be an STi setup.

    So unless you guys have a better idea it looks like my options are pull the entire spindle and have the bearings pushed out and back in, or cut the backplate off.

    D7042726-127F-4A8B-B981-1D9F04DB4F4F.jpg

    6EE2BC05-943C-413C-8B69-E7C73E6498B1.jpg

  30. #149
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Yes, you have to press out the bearings or cut the the backing plates off. I cut the plates off my 2006 WRX rear hubs.
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
    818R built with EZ36R H6 completed 2018

  31. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobby Racer View Post
    Yes, you have to press out the bearings or cut the the backing plates off. I cut the plates off my 2006 WRX rear hubs.
    What a poor design, thanks for confirming.

  32. #151
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    I think the plasma cutter is my most fun to use tool.

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