fletch's question thread

[aquillen]

Art, where's your coolant loop? I don't see it in that picture.

H6-3.0 and I kept both hot lines from the engine separate all the way to the radiator. Easier to bend the smaller lines, combined pipe cross section area a bit larger than the single FFR pipe. But you just want to see the routing in general, I know.
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Like Bob-n-Cincy there is room for heater lines here too. I had them one time, but changed to a tap up front that just uses hot from the top of the radiator (longer to heat up but OK with me). Back at the engine I used the heater line to feed an EGR cooler, if someone is wondering...

[fletch]

Does anyone have a Subaru manual A/C control panel? Looks kinda like this.
Manual_AC_ctrl.jpg

I've got the Vintage Air heater & AC setup and would like to use the OEM console. I've got the auto AC control panel which isn't as easy to deal with. Thanks!

[Ajzride]

I have one that I got from the pick and pull for $15. I will be mounting the pots for my restomod air controls inside it.

[fletch]

Long time no post. Forgive me. We're weeks away from our first start... which we'll certainly document and post up. So there's the teaser.

Here's the question... I can't for the life of me find the torque value for the shock tower brace bolts. I've searched the manual and the forum. I'm sure it's here, but I've spent long enough looking. Can someone help?
Thank you!!

[Frank818]

There's a page at the end of the manual, at least it's there in my old manual, that lists various SAE and METRIC bolt lenghts along with their associated torque figures, both on alu and steel.

Check the size/thread of the bolt you want to torque and match it within that chart/table. It's useful for a couple of other bolts here and there.

If your bolt is the one I'm thinking, it should be 75lbs.

[fletch]

Thanks Frank! Perfect.

[Frank818]

Confirmed, all four 1/2-13 bolts of the rear shock tower brace are 74lbs.

[fletch]

<sigh> My question thread is twice as long as my build thread. I'll try to do better at posting progress. Planning a few posts to go into detail on various aspects we've already completed... after I mop up all the coolant leaks that have appeared since getting the engine running.

Here's the question. Since Gator seems to have solved the transmission overheating issue, should we bother making a similar mod to our 818? We've got the 2.5L turbo engine with the 5MT from a 2006 WRX.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post418279

I know this is likely not a simple answer, but I find I benefit from the back-and-forth of the discussion. We won't do anything more than some autocross events, however I do plan to drive it regularly on the interstate at > 70 mph for 20-30 minutes.

We just got to go-kart stage and I'm reluctant to tear into the frame, but I know this mod will only get harder the longer I delay it. Maybe we install a transmission temp sensor and start collecting data while still at go-kart? What would folks advise?
Thanks!

[lance corsi]

Hello Fletch. I would tend to think you do not need a transmission cooler since your wot time on the street or the autocross track will be nothing close to the conditions Sgt Gator puts his cars through. The 6 spd trans has provisions for adding a cooler easily and the 5 spd doesn’t without some work.

[Hobby Racer]

I agree with Lance. Road racing puts an extreme strain on components due to the high amount of time spent at WOT, generating lots of heat. A street car w/ occasional autocross events will be fine. I would leave it alone.

[AZPete]

Fletch, from a street car point of view, I agree with Hobby and Lance that a trans cooler is not needed. My 818C (#25) has a 2.5L turbo engine with the 5MT from a 2006 WRX, like yours. I did not mod the frame and had no cooler, but I made a higher mark on the trans dip stick and kept it filled. I did no autocross but drove it on 2 trips to Huntington Beach which were each 900 freeway miles round trip and lots of other city and freeway miles. It had 5,800 miles when I sold it last October still doing fine. March on.

[fletch]

Thanks for the replies. My thought was not to add a trans cooler but to cut the frame and drop the tail of the trans to match the OEM angle. I have to admit, those videos with the lexan diff plate made me concerned about our tilted transmissions.

[roadrashrob]

I'm with Fletch. While I've not even received my kit yet, seems like if there is a benefit (more like problem avoidance) to setting the transmission at the angle Subaru intended it to be at, it's easier to do it sooner rather than later. Especially given the scare I just had with mine and seeing how much even used ones are running.

[lance corsi]

I made 1.25” taller engine mounts to achieve the correct attitude for the engine/trans. I believe this incorrect angle as received is the main contributor to oiling problems associated with the engine as well as the transmission.

[aquillen]

My 818C with 3.0 motor turning 98' Forester 5 speed - at ~70MPH for ~2 hours, three different trips now like that, hit about 170F and held, outside air was about 70F. Takes about 45 minutes to climb up to that and hold there. No cooler or other special air flow.

[fletch]

As we've been putting some go-kart time in, we've discovered that it's very hard - nearly impossible - to downshift to 1st or 2nd. Getting into 1st is easy when stopped. Moving from 1st to 2nd while rolling is similarly easy.
However, going from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st while rolling is really tough.
Any thoughts on what might be wrong or where to look to resolve this issue? Is it in the transmission or maybe the shifter linkage?

[aquillen]

Mine doesn't like to go down to 2 or 1 until moving slowly (or stopped). Especially into 1st I wait until nearly stopped to try for it - goes right in. If moving above a crawl it fights 1st for sure. 2nd not so fussy.

[fletch]

I hear you Art, but that can’t be the way these transmissions work in the Subarus, can it?!? I’d be very unhappy in a WRX that couldn’t downshift easily to 2nd.

[Ajzride]

I don’t have any issues with 2nd. 1st has to be almost stopped, typical of every stick I’ve driven.

[lance corsi]

This sounds like worn synchronizers. As Art said, it isn’t uncommon to have trouble downshifting into first while rolling, but second gear shouldn’t be a problem, provided you aren’t carrying too much speed. The 1-2 synchro and the 2-3 synchro get used most, so I would suspect them. I’d replace them all if you have to tear into the transmission. I’m doing them all on mine.
Another possibility would be your cable slop if you are using cables.

[fletch]

Art, Lance, AJ, thanks for the feedback. And apologies all for my uninformative post. The trans is a 5MT from a 2006 WRX. We have the Zero DB bell crank installed with an MR2 shifter and 8’ cables that route pretty tightly under the engine. It’s easy to get in and out of 2nd when stationary, though a little tougher than other gears. Maybe that indicates it’s the synchro? Lance, I’d like to hear more about how cable slop or adjustments in general might have an impact here.

[lance corsi]

The ease of static shifting means little in terms of synchro wear since the transmission shafts are not spinning. The synchro uses a tapered friction area to spin the associated gear up or down in rpm. With small teeth on the periphery, which engage with the mating gear teeth to accelerate or decelerate the cluster to match rpm. The actual synchronization happens as pressure is applied to the shift lever, forcing the synchro onto its tapered seat, thus inducing spinning. It’s really a simple device but susceptible to wear. Most 1-2 synchros are usually first to show wear.
I’m not a fan of cables, am not using mine, so I cannot be specific, only that cables suck.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Fletch,
I agree with others that say it could be the synchronizers. But I also think the problem could be that the clutch is not completely releasing. I had to play with the clutch pedal rod length to get the clutch to function properly. Make sure there is a little bit of free play in the clutch rod.
Bob

[fletch]

Lance, that's the best description of synchros in text form I've ever seen. They never made much sense to me until I saw a few Youtube animations, but your description is fantastic. I see your point that synchros may be the issue. I'm going to deal with the other easier to address possibilities first... and will cross my fingers that I don't need to rebuild the transmission. We'll see!

Bob,
Can you tell me more about your suggestion regarding the clutch pedal? I think you're saying that the shaft on the clutch MC should have some play when the pedal is not depressed. Is that right? If so, how does that have any impact on clutch operation when the pedal's depressed and we're trying to shift? Sorry if I'm dense here.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob,
Can you tell me more about your suggestion regarding the clutch pedal? I think you're saying that the shaft on the clutch MC should have some play when the pedal is not depressed. Is that right? If so, how does that have any impact on clutch operation when the pedal's depressed and we're trying to shift? Sorry if I'm dense here.

When the clutch pedal is all the way released and there is play in the master cylinder rod, this opens the port between the reservoir and the master cylinder chamber. This makes sure you are pushing a full load of fluid to completely release the clutch.

Any air in the clutch line will also cause the clutch not to release completely.

You can check this by putting the back end up on blocks and starting the engine, put it in gear with the clutch depressed. The rear wheels should not turn.

The synchronizer job is to bring the trans input shaft (and clutch disk) to the same speed as the gear teeth on the output pinion shaft. If the clutch is dragging it is very difficult for the synchronizer to do that.

Clear as mud now?
Bob

[fletch]

When the clutch pedal is all the way released and there is play in the master cylinder rod, this opens the port between the reservoir and the master cylinder chamber. This makes sure you are pushing a full load of fluid to completely release the clutch.

Any air in the clutch line will also cause the clutch not to release completely.

You can check this by putting the back end up on blocks and starting the engine, put it in gear with the clutch depressed. The rear wheels should not turn.

It appears the clutch pedal travel is not the issue. Although there was no play in the clutch MC rod, the wheels did not spin in gear. I adjusted the rod anyway. I haven't had a chance to drive the car, but I suspect downshifts to second will still be an issue. Perhaps I should have mentioned that shifting into 1st and 2nd even with the engine off has always been difficult. 3rd, 4th & 5th are easy compared to 1st & 2nd. Not sure what this means, but would appreciate any input.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It appears the clutch pedal travel is not the issue. Although there was no play in the clutch MC rod, the wheels did not spin in gear. I adjusted the rod anyway. I haven't had a chance to drive the car, but I suspect downshifts to second will still be an issue. Perhaps I should have mentioned that shifting into 1st and 2nd even with the engine off has always been difficult. 3rd, 4th & 5th are easy compared to 1st & 2nd. Not sure what this means, but would appreciate any input.

If the rotation on the shifter rod is not enough. It could be trying to push the 1-2 and 3-4 slider at the same time.
The transmission has a mechanical interlock that only lets one slider move out of neutral at a time.

5th gear.jpg

[fletch]

Thanks Bob. I’ll look at the cables tonight with special attention to the rotation range of motion.

[aquillen]

If you have enough cable range, then maybe...

Disconnect the shift cable ends back at the transmission. Have a helper "resist" the cable ends sliding while you shift up there at the console. Rather subjective but if you take turns at each end you probably will concur if you have - or not - a binding issue in the cable/linkages. Eliminate that then move on to the transmission...

I'm using 98 Forester in the car, but also have a couple others in the corner (one of which I just tested recently as I'm working on a "power assist" mechanism that makes shifting a fingertip proposal.... just to tinker)

Anyway, the one I tested recently is an '02 NA Impreza. In the image of shift rod ends that Bob posted/circled, each shaft, push or pull to move from neutral needed the following force, with a crummy fish-scale to pull and a postal scale to push. The transmissions were empty, and the 98 had been fully disassembled and put back together with just a thin coat of trans lube. And my push-pull testing was directly at the back end of each of the 3 individual rods inside the case, not the main shift shaft out the back of the fully assembled trans. I need to try this on the outside shaft sometime, but in this cold weather the results would be hard to make sense of - it definitely shifts harder in the winter.

Thinking back to over a month ago when I last drove it - downshifting into 2nd is same as any other downshift selection, only 1st gear is hard to get until nearly stopped (lots of Suby forum people report this is normal).

98 Forester ~ 28# and each shaft would pop out and move to the next position
02 Impreza ~ 18# required.

No clue why so much difference but that is what these two examples need. Each shaft in one unit would take roughly the same effort with 2# or 3# variation, above numbers was the average. So figure between 18# and 28# should shift a gear and whatever the transmission does on one shift shaft the others would be similar. Now is this a realistic conclusion from just transmissions, one of which I don't know the history? Not much better than no reference for you maybe.

The main shift shaft out the back runs on a collection of ball bearings that allow slide and rotate. If the seals and bearings are good in that part, it should not add much more than a couple #'s of effort to any of the motions. But you can't know unless you pull the back case and verify it is not binding.

Looking at this picture, the three wide head screws trap a spring and ball that is the detent for each shift rod. I believe the springs are all the same tension, and they do set a good part of the effort normally needed to pop the shaft out of position, and the associated ball/shaft detent for each shaft is what holds the selected gear. If you remove the screws, then all detent action should go away and you better feel how much effort the shaft, fork, syncros and such require to move the internals. As I recall vaguely from 4 years back each shaft was very easy to move without the detent springs, and they moved with simlar effort. Since sometimes the teeth on the syncro/balk ring parts have to move a bit, then the force to get a gear will vary, but back and forth on a single gear to neutral should settle out once the teeth are aligned and you don't go to some other gear to cause that alignment to change.

I'm also guessing a trick might be if a transmission has wear and is having trouble popping out of gear, someone might put in a stiffer spring than should be, to keep it working for a while ? (nothing read on that but what if that had been done to yours?).

[fletch]

Thanks Art. Lots to think about there. I'll get back to that shifter issue at some point and will try to assess the force needed for each gear in some way.

Now a different question...
I think we may have the wrong door parts. Here's what we have.

These are from Bob's 818S kit originally. We bought the hardtop which includes windows, regulators, and various hardware, but did not include new doors. The manual shows these:
door from manual.png
and several photos with the style of door we have. I presume FFR made a change to the door design at some point. Will our doors work when it comes time to add all the window hardware? AZPete, others? Maybe you've done the coupe conversion and used the older style doors?

[lance corsi]

Fletch, yes the 818C door frames are different than the “S” door frames.
However, with the massive amount of work needed to make the window mechanism work, I’m not so sure a wholesale redesign wouldn’t be quicker/easier. Given what I know now, I should have redesigned them already, but I was able to get mine to work with lots of toil. Chevy s-10 window tracks are key to making them work, but you need to add tabs to bolt them in with. The tabs as supplied aren’t in the correct places when you do this mod.

[lance corsi]

Throw away the shower door rollers and install tracks.

[AZPete]

Thanks for asking, Fletch. I got the new door frames from FFR when I got the hardtop, so I used those and not the "S" door frames. I got my windows to work with the "shower door" rollers but it took many hours of trial & error. Having seen the quality of Lance'swork here on the forum, I yield to his expertise. Be sure to look carefully at his build with window tracks.

[fletch]

Well, it's embarrassing but relieving to report that we've solved our downshifting issues. After checking the cables for proper amounts of play & travel, confirming adequate travel in the clutch pedal, and rebleeding the clutch line, we decided to take a few trips around the neighborhood to enjoy the go-kart a little bit more. We've had several difficult months with various family challenges and losses and thought it would be good to just have a little fun going 30 mph. It was therapeutic for sure.

Lance said the culprit might be worn synchros and we were beginning to think that was going to be the issue. Of course that would require disassembling the transmission or replacing it - neither of which we were eager to do. Admittedly, it's been hard to get much motivation up to do anything on the car and fixing the transmission felt like it would be a huge step backward.

I read somewhere that you can live with worn synchros for quite a while by double-clutching. So when Isaac got cold enough to take a break from driving around the neighborhood, I took a turn at the wheel and decided to try the double-clutch downshift to test the worn synchro theory. Lo and behold, downshifting 3rd to 2nd worked! I thought to myself, "Oh crap. Now we've got to tear the transmission apart." I let that idea settle in pretty deep for a few minutes while attempting to enjoy the breeze flowing through my ever-growing COVID hair. During my reverie I had an epiphany. "Maybe I just need to rev match a little better." So I gave it a shot. Just a simple straight-line, non-double-clutched, rev matched downshift. And --- holy cow it worked! I tried it again, and again. I heel-toed a few low speed corners. It all worked!

I was dumbfounded... (and pretty dumb, of course.)... yet also elated as the realization gradually dawned on me - "WE DON'T NEED TO PULL THE TRANSMISSION!!!!"

So, I feel embarrassed and delighted at the same time. I'm guessing some of you can relate.

While I'm at it, I'll share two other moments of stupidity during our build.
1) I brought my tuner friend over to help us through our first start. We stumbled for a while with the issue of needing to put the immobilizer in circuit (it's an '06 WRX donor). Fixed that issue, then got no spark. What to do, what to do? After pulling a plug and checking 15 other things, my friend walks around the engine and checks all the engine harness connectors. Three of them were plugged in, but not to the point of "clicking." He seated those plugs and the engine started right up. Pretty dumb mistake, but an easy fix... so I'll take it! [ASIDE: We never got our first start on video because we were so confounded by all these issues. In fact, our first start was only on 3 cylinders because we had pulled an ignition wire to check for spark.]
2) After a fairly long stretch of not running the engine, the battery had died. We jumped it and got it running. We drove it around the neighborhood a few times attempting to diagnose an overheating issue. Eventually, we parked it outside to let it cool off. An hour later I went out to move it into the garage and it wouldn't start. I then proceeded to call the entire family outside to help push it up the driveway incline. As they were following me outside I had another sudden realization. I sat in the car, put the clutch in and started it right up. ------ Yep, I had been trying to start the car without putting the clutch in. Again a dumb mistake with an easy fix.

All this reminds me of something my father used to say. "I'd rather be lucky than good." Which of course is of no comfort when you realize you're driving around in something you built yourself. Here's hoping we're lucky and good!

[aquillen]

Kudos for all your truthfulness. Sometimes I do stupid things, sometimes I share too... if it wasn't too silly. Perseverance, however, is always rewarded as you know.

[lance corsi]

I’m almost ashamed to admit how many mistakes I make. It almost seems like I’ve built 2 cars! I don’t feel bad about it tho, since so many issues were baked into this cake from the beginning. I feel that the launch of this model was extremely premature given the amount of engineering work needed to address the many problems. All this and FFR has moved on to introduce other new models. I can only imagine the issues others will be facing as they try to build their cars. I prefer quality over quantity. When I buy something such as this kit, I’m buying more than just raw materials. It’s called engineering.

[lance corsi]

If I had to put a grade on the 818 it would only be a C minus.

[fletch]

I have an '06 wrx donor which has the push-style clutch. In trying to resolve our downshifting issue I'd like help with a bit of info. Can anybody verify for me the travel distance of the slave cylinder rod? Trying to figure out if the master cylinder/pedal aren't moving the slave far enough or if the issue is inside the transmission/clutch itself. Thanks!

[fletch]

Our 2006 WRX donor has an exterior temperature sensor with a dedicated LCD in the cluster. However, the LCD is out. Completely non-functioning, no display whatsoever. At times past, the display used to illuminate and show "--- F", but now it's completely dead aside from the backlight. Moreover, the 5V were supposed to see on the cluster output to the exterior temp sensor is pinned at 0V. Perhaps the microcontroller is fried? Any help or questions for clarification would be appreciated. Thank you.

[AZPete]

Fletch, check that the rod from your clutch slave cylinder is seated all the way into the "bowl" of the clutch release lever. I know this sounds elementary, but I was puzzled for weeks why my clutch wasn't fully engaging. For weeks, I stupidly tried other solutions until I finally pushed the slave rod a little so it seated itself into the center of the recessed bowl. Duh.