JForand - Atlanta Build

[DSR-3]

You will not be sorry if you go the Wilwood pedals direction. Esp. on an R where the adjustability alone is worth it.

[Hobby Racer]

So I oriented the spring so the writing was up. Well, it is pretty obvious when you get tot the car they need to be shaft side up as the body does not clear the bottom of the mounting tabs. The are also shown inverted in the pics. Now the spring are upside down not that this matters at all

Ok, so now the question. Did anyone else have fitment issues?

The R shocks can be mounted in any directions, the S shocks can NOT. And I think we all had to do some clearancing to get things to fit properly

Finally I really like the flat fire wall and the Wilwood pedal idea. I am going to yank out the OEM pedals and brake stuff and take a good look at it, but and thinking that the mental commitment is already moving to Wilwood.

Go for it, they are excellent. If Mitch can get you a better price, pull the trigger.

I just don't know what the 818 requires and the part numbers to get there. At the current time I plan on installing the Cadillac breaks on all four corners.

I'm the one that blazed the trial putting the Cadillac brakes on all four corners and I have to say its been great. Look back at the first few posts in my build thread for a detailed explanation of the engineering that went into specing out the Cadillac system and master cylinder sizing. I ended up using a 3/4" master cylinder for the front and a 13/16" cylinders for the rear. If you need part numbers let me know and I can dig them out for you.

Brake cylinder sizing

[Blu]

Wilwood pedal mounting plate - I have an extra one if you need it. No charge, just pay for shipping if interested.
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[jforand]

HAHAHA, it was a bit silent and I thought that was weird. PAGE 2 of the thread, I have hit two pages. I guess I have arrived. I wonder why it does not open tot he most recent page?

Awesome Blu. I shot you a private message.

So I spent a lot of time yesterday doing bushings. Actually a very embarrassing amount of time. I thought they would be easier than ever, but they proved to be to flimsy to hold shape and press in. They just popped out everywhere and I could not get them in, what a sticky greasy mess. I finally came up with tapering a 2 inch pvc pipe. Worked like a champ. Just loaded them in like shot gun shells with one pushing the other.

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I then went out to the chassis excited to hang them. Why do the hole sizes change when you raise up to the lowest ride height setting. They are huge, like made 5/8"s or something, haven't measured them yet. They basically are rendering the new bushings in the existing donor links useless. The factory hardware that fits the bushings will slop all over the place in hole. I'm a bit confused and don't see this mentioned much in the manual or the supplemental. I do see them talking about drilling out the rear knuckle for a 5/8's on the lower lateral links. I know you really want the adjustable arms and I went looking on the FFR site to see it I could order them (basically other versions of the upper forward link and the camber link, but can't find them on the site anywhere. I have seen pics with guys in multiple locations where all but the trailing arm is that gold formed adjustable link that FFR utilizes. Are the heim joints more like the 5/8"s so that larger hardware goes through everything nice and tight?

I have order a cheap set online last night as I thought I could not pass up the price, but I fear I have likely bought something that has the same stock sizing for the hardware....

Hobby,

I will definitely look up your brake stuff. Thanks. I would very much appreciate part numbers if you don't mind. With Blu's plate and Mitch's pedals and 3/4 master, I think piecing it together won't be too hard.

[Hobby Racer]

I have seen pics with guys in multiple locations where all but the trailing arm is that gold formed adjustable link that FFR utilizes. Are the heim joints more like the 5/8"s so that larger hardware goes through everything nice and tight?
online last night as I thought I could not pass up the price, but I fear I have likely bought something that has the same stock sizing for the hardware....

They are called swedge tubes. I got mine from Speedway Motors. And yes they are 5/8" and everything fits nice and tight.

Hobby,

I will definitely look up your brake stuff. Thanks. I would very much appreciate part numbers if you don't mind. With Blu's plate and Mitch's pedals and 3/4 master, I think piecing it together won't be too hard.

Looks like you'll have everything except for two extra master cylinders.

[jforand]

Man, you have been great with the replies and info.

I did measure the holes and they look to be 5/8ths (once I drill out the powder coating). I also went to Speedway and the pics look identical to what came with the kit. They must be the supplier.

4 - RH Chromoly heim joints 5/8-18 with a 5/8 hole
4 - LH Chromoly heim joints 5/8-18 with a 5/8 hole
4 - 13" Swedge tubes -OR- 13.5"?????
1 - Kit of 12 5/8 jam nuts 6 LH/6 RH

Looks to total 235.

I measured the OEM links and they come in at 16.25 center to center. There is a note out on speedway that says two heims "halfway" threaded add about 3" to tube length. When measuring on the ones in the garage it appears that they add 3" when ALL the way threaded in. So 13" (tube) + 3" (heims) = 16" (0.25 shorter than OEM) with the threads all the way in. Did you go with 13" tubes or the 13.5"? I would obviously like as much threaded in as possible. I suppose I could dial out the excess camber with the 13.5" tubes by lengthening the top a bit assuming there is enough adjustment there.

I'll wait to hit the order button. I need to slow down my trigger finger anyway. I like turning the wrenches more than the hunt for the parts

[Hindsight]

Welcome to the club. I'm in Atlanta and while I sold my 818 already, I'm more than happy to provide any input/advice. I tracked mine quite a bit and drove it on the street a lot too.

[jforand]

Thanks Hindsight. I have read a decent amount of your stuff and I believe that your car might actually be up for sale again here. I sent the link to a friend who I strongly urged to buy it.

I new the car was for sale in Atlanta, but I did not realize you were also in Atlanta. Once this Covid 19 thing calms down we'll have to figure out how to meet up.

[Hobby Racer]

Man, you have been great with the replies and info.

No problem. This forum has helped me many times, just giving back.

Did you go with 13" tubes or the 13.5"? I would obviously like as much threaded in as possible. I suppose I could dial out the excess camber with the 13.5" tubes by lengthening the top a bit assuming there is enough adjustment there.

I went with 12" tubes and you can see there is room to use longer ones. I would go with 13" if they are available.

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[jforand]

Wow, 12” tubes. That is a surprise. Do you know the rear camber you are running. I realize it is totally different, but I settled on -2.5 on the back of my Mustang with full race slicks. I am imagining that this light of a car will require less. Assuming your upper arm is fairly fairly adjusted out as well.

[Hobby Racer]

Wow, 12” tubes. That is a surprise. Do you know the rear camber you are running. I realize it is totally different, but I settled on -2.5 on the back of my Mustang with full race slicks. I am imagining that this light of a car will require less. Assuming your upper arm is fairly fairly adjusted out as well.

Last season I ran -2.5 degrees with 200 tread wear street tires. This year I will increase it to -3.0 degrees with Hoosier A7's. These cars can pull serious G's in the corners!

[jforand]

Looking forward to it!

It is a fine balance. Not sure about you, but I align the car for the best tire wear and longevity, not ultimate lap time (there is a difference). They might get slipperier, but I am not chasing trophies with a sponsor. I run them until there is no rubber. I bought a new set of R7s for the Mustang a couple years back and killed the inside shoulders up front at Summit Point Main circuit. Very expensive lesson. For the most part I can run -3.5 up front and -2.5 in the rear and it works very well everywhere. Summit Main is a short, fast, 12 turn track with only two real lefts that wear rubber. It is pretty brutally unilateral on the rubber. For tire preservation you really want to consider a unilateral setup and rotate your tires, where as, Road Atlanta is perfectly even for me. I can run three straight days and not rotate.

I have been running the Pirelli scrubs the last two years. At 125-150 a tire they were way cheaper than the 1700-1800 set of Hoosiers. Very decent life if you pay attention tot he alignment.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Hindsight. I have read a decent amount of your stuff and I believe that your car might actually be up for sale again here. I sent the link to a friend who I strongly urged to buy it.

I new the car was for sale in Atlanta, but I did not realize you were also in Atlanta. Once this Covid 19 thing calms down we'll have to figure out how to meet up.

Yeah it already sold to a guy in another state - Tennessee I think.

[jforand]

Making progress on the mockup. Right now I am just hanging stuff to see how it all works. The big issue is sorting through the hardware finding the right diameters and lengths and sourcing what I do not.

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I still have the rear lower lateral links to go. I have ordered adjustable swedge links with the help of Hobby Racer (Thanks man!). Those should be here tomorrow along with the a hardware purchase from McMaster Carr. So currently the only OEM link is the trailing arm. I must say that the rear hub is very toed out which will be fixed by pushing out the bottom/back with the lateral links. The issue I see is that ALL of the corrective motion goes against the happy place on the forward trailing arm bushing. I actually really am not thinking canting of the bushing (to the degree I think will be necessary) is a good idea or will work out well at all in the long run. I know I have seen people discuss portions of this. It usually comes in the form of not being able to install the rear of the trailing arm on the knuckle bushing due to misalignment. I was able to install that easily without the laterals in yet.

I am going to wait and reserve judgement until I get things closer to completion and truly get an idea of what an alignment might look like. My gut is kid of thinking a large monoball up there is going to work best.

Hobby, I can see it that pic you sent of the laterals that you are indeed running the OEM trailing arm. Did you notice misalignment on the front end? I guess one other way to fix it would be to cut the welds at the front of the arm, realign the angles, and burn it back it place.....

Below is a quick mock up of the OEM clutch and brake pedals. I spent time sorting through the giant Maxwell House coffee can of all the donor nuts and bolts. I believe I found the ones that served this purpose. Anyway, a few of you have helped me down the road of thinking that Wilwood is a much better option for several reasons. These will likely be coming back out to make room for the Wilwood setup.

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[jforand]

I apologize for all the pics always being oriented wrong. It appears the forum always rotates them counterclockwise tot he landscape orientation. I will try to take them differently so that I don't cause any neck issues for anyone.

[Hobby Racer]

Hobby, I can see it that pic you sent of the laterals that you are indeed running the OEM trailing arm. Did you notice misalignment on the front end? I guess one other way to fix it would be to cut the welds at the front of the arm, realign the angles, and burn it back it place.....

It did take some persuasion to get this in place. I have always thought of replacing the trailing arms with something like these aftermarket ones for 1) a better fit and 2) more tire clearance.

[jforand]

Wow those are pretty cheap right now. Ugh, my purchase finger is getting itchy already.

They will believe solve all the issues that I currently have with the various misalignments. They don't give any measurements so it is tough to tell if they will give more tire/wheel clearance. I have seen the pics with very little clearance there. It would be nice to know if these kill two birds with one stone.

It is interesting that there are three nuts down at the monoball end. One is likely the threaded fitting insert and another the jamb nut. Do you think the middle one is another threaded insert that you can use to gain addition length adjustment over just the monoball shaft threads?

[Mitch Wright]

I made up some rear trailing arms using steel swedged tubes Speedway.Chassis left rear.JPG they gave me plenty of extra space to run a 265/35X18 BFG R1 on the rear.

[jforand]

Those are nice Mitch. I have the lower lateral links showing up tomorrow from Speedway. I went ahead and hit the buy button on some trailing links from Ebay. Hobby put a link up there in post#56. I figured it would be hard to go that wrong for 68 bucks. I ended up spending 250 on the four laterals. Maybe I can make a sort of modern art tree with my surplus of links

[jforand]

Hobby,

I just made the realization that me super awesome CNC machined and anodized rear caliper mounts for the ATS brakes are too small um, and I actually pressed the hibs in prior to getting brackets on there double I hope I can get them back out without destroying a zero mileage bearing..... I did not go so well for the OEM ones coming out.

I know you made your own brackets and have seen the page. I had a hard time determining what you used in your 4 pics. It looked like some sort of C channel and you welded some ears on it. What was the thickness of your material, no issues is the strength of your choice? I further assume you worked it out so no spacer was required to center the rotor in the caliper. I also saw the someone Mechie3 indicated back in 2017 that several people had asked him to make brackets. Do you know if anyone ever did?

What a bummer, I was really looking to bolt these on. I guess they are for a non STI. Smaller overall center hole and a smaller 4 bolt circle to secure it to the knuckle. Is there a better way to offer these up to anyone who has a non STI knuckle than the for sale page? That thing is a total yard sale, I guess decent if you were building a Cobra.

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[Hobby Racer]

Hobby,

I know you made your own brackets and have seen the page. I had a hard time determining what you used in your 4 pics. It looked like some sort of C channel and you welded some ears on it. What was the thickness of your material, no issues is the strength of your choice? I further assume you worked it out so no spacer was required to center the rotor in the caliper. I also saw the someone Mechie3 indicated back in 2017 that several people had asked him to make brackets. Do you know if anyone ever did?

I used 3/16" steel for the backing plate and 1/4" steel for the ears. The backing plate had curved edges, but that was only because the piece of scrap I had in the shop was shaped like that I'm sure it adds some strength but it is not needed as there are no bending loads, only radial. As you indicated the thickness and placement were chosen to avoid using spacers to center the caliper. The brackets have proven more than strong enough so I would just make them out of steel like I did, much easier and cheaper. Some one did make brackets for sale but they were for WRX hubs (not STI).

What a bummer, I was really looking to bolt these on. I guess they are for a non STI. Smaller overall center hole and a smaller 4 bolt circle to secure it to the knuckle. Is there a better way to offer these up to anyone who has a non STI knuckle than the for sale page? That thing is a total yard sale, I guess decent if you were building a Cobra.

I've had good luck selling some 818 stuff here. There really is no other place that will be interested in 818 specific parts. Try the classified section and a post in the Suspension, Steering and Brakes section as some people only look in the 818 sections.

[Ajzride]

I made my custom brackets out of 1/4 steel as well, works great.

[jforand]

Good to hear. I got my swedge links in and got them on the car. Still need the correct spacers to keep them centered. Of course I bought the big bolt on the bottom for the full length of the knuckle and two OEM links.....The swedge links are much narrower. Looks like I'll be going back in for more hardware.

Managed to get the front Brembos on (still need rotors).

I don't suppose anyone has a drawing of the bracket with dimensions do you? I can get it figured out if you don't, but will need to get some rotors first. I think I am going to junk the donor steering rack as well. It does not feel good when you attempt to turn it at all. Not to mention that trying to clean it up isn't worth it when I have seen new ones for 100 bucks. This will also give me a couple rod ends that I can fab the bump steer kit out of.

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[Hobby Racer]

Your making good progress. I really enjoy the build process, seems like you do as well.

I don't have drawings for the brackets though. I just fabricated them up on the fly, sorry.

[jforand]

Thanks Hobby, I do enjoy the build. That is by far my favorite part over the research and part sourcing. I think I need an intern to track all of this stuff down. The delays kill me, not the "crap, this doesn't work" moments and problem solving, just the having to wait a week for the solution to roll in.

I need to sit back with the manual and just read it a bit no to make sure I am not messing up any order of operations. I would like to get sheet metal squared away, but a lot of it is not painted. In fact, most of the painted parts I won't be using. The three fire wall pieces that get replaced by the Wilwood pedals. Blu was mailing that bracket yesterday (thanks Blu). So that will need coated, the new firewall sheet metal will need to be sorted (FFR or fabricate then coat). I see mention of intrusion panels on the sides. Yep, again I have those side sheets coated, but if I go with upgraded for intrusion they will be looking pretty over in the corner. Was thinking about trying to get a lot of the the metal in, drilled, and then send it off for coating.

I am also thinking about turning focus to the engine and transmission. As you have seen the trans is basically done. I have a short block that is supposed to be forged internals and a long block for parts in a mostly torn down state. I was thinking about just throwing the long block together to get the final form so that I can bolt it to the trans and try positioning it in the car. I want to make sure everything is good to go before I cut into the frame for the 6 speed mods.

It seems that most people like the Group N mounts. I know I need to mount a head back on the long block. I will probably just throw a rag in there for a head gasket to protect the surfaces. Not sticking a new head gasket in just for the mock up. I don't think I recall seeing engine hardware like head bolts, bell housing bolts and such. I guess the search begins.

I also need to source a good engine manual.

[Mitch Wright]

If the car is track only I suggest the Cusco mounts for the engine and trans.

LOL In my typical fashion I went the manual before my kit arrived then only used it for reference. When I was building much of the manual pertained to the R.

[STiPWRD]

PM me your email and I'll send you the subaru factory service manual. It had all the necessary information when I was building my motor.

[jforand]

I did attempt to go through the manual a bit at first. I then started into the car a got a bit frustrated that the manual was not applying very well to the R. I then got a bit frustrated that a lot of the OEM parts and hardware get the bounce when you talk about the R. Then Hobby Racer was polite enough to ask if I knew about the R supplemental....say what? SO I went and got that downloaded. I have found a bit of conflicting info.

All in all, I think it is really just getting into it and start building. I just want to avoid massive order-of-operation missteps.

I have been trying to study up on the forum on the bump steer solutions. I think the commercially available kits such as the Baer all seem to fail short on the amount of extension needed.

FFRSpec72
Had posted this a while back. I think I like this solution, though I think it might fall a little short as well? I really think the taper needs to be maintained for ultimate strength and rigidity. The through bolt solutions don't do that and I am having a tough time getting onboard with that plan.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjus...=91636055PINTO
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Searc...+Inch+x+1+Inch
https://www.racecraft.com/bumpsteer-...lh-p-1697.html
https://steinjager.com/shop/index.ph...earch=J0041201

FFRSpec72 ended up "machining the taper" a bit. I was thinking that the Subaru taper fits 'inside' the Pinto taper, meaning if you buy a 7 degree ream you can easily ream the taper to exactly fit the Pinto stud. In other words, the Pinto hole is larger than the Subaru's so there is metal that can be cut away to establish the Pinto's specifications.

[STiPWRD]

I used the same bumpsteer setup as FFRSpec72. I had a machinist turn down the pinto tapers for me (keeping the angle) and it worked out fine. In my experience, reamers are more of a "finishing tool" so I'm not sure if one will be able to remove enough material from the Subaru taper. But it's worth a shot.
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[idf]

I used the same bumpsteer setup as FFRSpec72. I had a machinist turn down the pinto tapers for me (keeping the angle) and it worked out fine. In my experience, reamers are more of a "finishing tool" so I'm not sure if one will be able to remove enough material from the Subaru taper. But it's worth a shot.
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I also had the Pinto tapers turned down and am happy with the result. I would not be afraid of the through bolt approach either. My formula Ford is set up this way, as are many others, with good results.

[jforand]

This is good news that it seems to be working for people. Are you all running R's?

STiPWRD, when you say "keeping the angle" you don't mean exactly the same angle do you, just keeping a taper. By my measurements it would need to be turned down about 0.03" on the fat end and 0.06 on the skinny end which would obviously change the angle. Also did both of you gentlemen go with the revised 3.5" sleeves or something longer?

[idf]

This is good news that it seems to be working for people. Are you all running R's?

STiPWRD, when you say "keeping the angle" you don't mean exactly the same angle do you, just keeping a taper. By my measurements it would need to be turned down about 0.03" on the fat end and 0.06 on the skinny end which would obviously change the angle. Also did both of you gentlemen go with the revised 3.5" sleeves or something longer?

My car is an S. I had the machinist turn the Pinto taper down to match the Subaru taper. I don't recall the dimensions, but think I gave the machinist a Subaru rod end to match. I used the Baer sleeves (guess why I happened to have them), which are 3 3/4 in long.

[Hobby Racer]

I have been trying to study up on the forum on the bump steer solutions. ... I really think the taper needs to be maintained for ultimate strength and rigidity. The through bolt solutions don't do that and I am having a tough time getting onboard with that plan.

Don't fear the straight thru solutions. I used a straight thru Pinto spindle bump steer kit from Speedway Motors. I really liked the wide conical base that meets up with the spindle arm and then tappers down.

Speedway Motors Pinto Kit (Straight Thru)

[jforand]

Ok, I think I do like that solution as it widens the base making the internal taper less necessary. It helps take the bending moment off the bolt and places it on the conical spacer with the bolt simply supplying the compressive force as intended. The other ting I like about this is that you can easily change out the bolt length and add/remove spacers as necessary to dial it in. The other solutions are fixed.

What tubes did you use? I have seen talk of people with non opposed LH/RH threads. Definitely want to be able to adjust with just the jamb nuts. FFRSpec72’s sure I listed above seems to be the source. As with the rear suspension I want to make sure that there is ample thread engagement.

Haha, I took a front wheel out there today to check fitment and had a small panic. Radially it is perfect, backspace wise not so much. I even have the 3mm spacer in from the CTSV kit. I grabbed the spacer from the other side and it still wasn’t close......then I realized that a rotor would be very helpful in spacing things out . I need to get those ordered. It does appear that it will be close. I think there might be a bit of a spacer in the end.

I learning a bit more about the Subaru world I just realized that you have crammed a 6 cylinder in your car. I saw the designation and your notching the gram and such, but never knew it was a 6. I was wondering why you seemed to be the only guy who had to do this. Kind of funny.

[jforand]

Thanks for the response IDF. I wish I had access to a decent machine shop, that has basically all dried up to my knowledge. I had a set of heads done for a 57 T bird 10 years ago that was really sketchy. I had to threaten to walk out with them in whatever state they were in. Just a guy barely scraping by. I had another place go through the block and they were pretty good, but the shop closed its doors.

Not that I would wish this on anyone, but it is good to know I am not the only one ordering stuff that doesn't entirely pan out!

[jforand]

Mitch,

I checked out the Cusco mounts you suggested. They look pretty good. I need to do a big of research as I don't think the trans mount in the '04 inclusive kit works with an 08-09 6MT. I might have to get the engine mounts and then figure out the right trans mount separately.

[Hobby Racer]

Ok, I think I do like that solution as it widens the base making the internal taper less necessary. It helps take the bending moment off the bolt and places it on the conical spacer with the bolt simply supplying the compressive force as intended. The other ting I like about this is that you can easily change out the bolt length and add/remove spacers as necessary to dial it in. The other solutions are fixed.

That's why I went with it!

What tubes did you use? I have seen talk of people with non opposed LH/RH threads.

I used the factory tie rod ends and machined the ends to accept heim joint rod ends.

Haha, I took a front wheel out there today to check fitment and had a small panic. Radially it is perfect, backspace wise not so much. I even have the 3mm spacer in from the CTSV kit. I grabbed the spacer from the other side and it still wasn’t close......then I realized that a rotor would be very helpful in spacing things out . I need to get those ordered. It does appear that it will be close. I think there might be a bit of a spacer in the end.

If you are using the FFR wheels you will need a 5mm spacer on the front.

I learning a bit more about the Subaru world I just realized that you have crammed a 6 cylinder in your car. I saw the designation and your notching the gram and such, but never knew it was a 6. I was wondering why you seemed to be the only guy who had to do this. Kind of funny.

Yah, I think I'm the only one with a running 3.6 liter 6 cylinder out there. There are a about a half dozen 3.0 liter 6 cylinder installs done though.

[Hobby Racer]

Mitch,

I checked out the Cusco mounts you suggested. They look pretty good. I need to do a big of research as I don't think the trans mount in the '04 inclusive kit works with an 08-09 6MT. I might have to get the engine mounts and then figure out the right trans mount separately.

You might want to consider making your own mounts so you can lower the tail of the transmission as much as possible. The angle that the engine trans combo sits at with the stock mounts is tilted too far forward. This has negative implications on the oiling system for the engine and transmission. You want the engine to be as level as possible when sitting in the chassis.

My custom 6 speed transmission mount

[jforand]

I had seen talk about the angle of the engine. I think the first thing I am going to do is drop it in there on some 2x4 blocks and survey the situation. I need to get things assembled a bit before I can start on this part.

On your 5mm spacer....the ctsv swap has a 3mm that is supposed to go behind the rotor. Are you running that and then a 5mm between the wheel and the rotor so there would be a total of 8ish (2 spacers) on each wheel? I ordered some DBA rotors today so I’ll get a first hand look soon. I love how KNS starts you on your order history page with all the pricing......yikes it adds up over time!

I got those trailing arms today. I think they are pretty decent, especially for 68 bucks. That third nut is essentially a turn buckle type adjustment. Just loosen the jamb nuts and you can extend or shorten the arm. Everything on the driver’s side of my car is tight. I had to shave down the spacer bushings about a 16th off each side to get it to fit. Passenger side was perfect. I’ll get a pic tomorrow.

[Hobby Racer]

I had seen talk about the angle of the engine. I think the first thing I am going to do is drop it in there on some 2x4 blocks and survey the situation. I need to get things assembled a bit before I can start on this part.

That is a good idea. You are going with the normal H4 2.5L right?

On your 5mm spacer....the ctsv swap has a 3mm that is supposed to go behind the rotor. Are you running that and then a 5mm between the wheel and the rotor so there would be a total of 8ish (2 spacers) on each wheel? I ordered some DBA rotors today so I’ll get a first hand look soon. I love how KNS starts you on your order history page with all the pricing......yikes it adds up over time!

I'll have to check behind the rotor today. I can not remember If I needed a spacer there or not.