JForand - Atlanta Build

[jforand]

I believe that to be the case Hobby. I have a short block that will be the base of the build that is cast as an EJ25 B25C 704. It will be getting all the other stuff off of an EJ25 B25c 702. When I look inside the short block it appears to have upgraded internals. Pistons have a P/N of 291061 and a secondary number of 815032. I have not tried to look these up yet. The rods are of an H beam design and I cannot see any markings other that what appears to be a lot number of sorts on the crank end.

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I don't know if you have tried it, but oven cleaner and a scrub brush worked great to clean up the block. You have to be a bit careful as it does eat aluminum so you don't want to leave it on long. You end up with a bit of a darker gray, but it is clean.

Here is a couple pics of those trailing arms.

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[jforand]

It looks like the pistons are JE

https://www.jepistons.com/pistons-291061

I think the roads are likely Eagle Standard forged

https://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?o...d=21&Itemid=32

It does appear that there is a decent amount of smoothing on the cylinder walls and the slightest bit of linear scraping. I wondering if it makes sense to pull the pistons, hone, and re-ring. I gotta say I am not really looking for machine shop bills here. I don't really know of any in the Atlanta area. The idea would be just a quick bottle honing to resurface, but not appreciable resize.

Thoughts?

[STiPWRD]

I also have JE pistons but mine are meant to work with the wrx heads (P/N: 291059), which have a smaller combustion chamber. So JE increases piston volume to -25.50 cc to bring the compression ratio back down. Your JE pistons (291061) have a volume of -16.50 cc, so they're probably meant to go with sti heads. You also have the standard bore (99.50mm), which means your block has not been over-bored yet.

Do you have any pictures of the scraping? Replacing piston rings and verifying dimensions isn't too much of a pain with a bit of research. It's good insurance but does take time.

This is good news that it seems to be working for people. Are you all running R's?

STiPWRD, when you say "keeping the angle" you don't mean exactly the same angle do you, just keeping a taper. By my measurements it would need to be turned down about 0.03" on the fat end and 0.06 on the skinny end which would obviously change the angle. Also did both of you gentlemen go with the revised 3.5" sleeves or something longer?

I've got the S. Go with the 3.5" sleeves, 5.5" will be too long. If I recall, I kept the angle on the pinto the same and turned the taper down by 0.60". The taper angle is close enough that it stayed locked in pretty well. My main concern was having enough threads for the top lock nut.

[jforand]

I also have JE pistons but mine are meant to work with the wrx heads (P/N: 291059), which have a smaller combustion chamber. So JE increases piston volume to -25.50 cc to bring the compression ratio back down. Your JE pistons (291061) have a volume of -16.50 cc, so they're probably meant to go with sti heads. You also have the standard bore (99.50mm), which means your block has not been over-bored yet.

Do you have any pictures of the scraping? Replacing piston rings and verifying dimensions isn't too much of a pain with a bit of research. It's good insurance but does take time..

A shot from each cylinder. Two are a bit worse than the other two. All in all I would not say anything is bad. You can't feel anything with a finger nail.

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Shot of the piston top

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And then a couple of the head

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So as I understand it (not well, i assure you) the D25 heads have the more hemisherical chamber and are smaller in volume (roughly 51cc) from the preceding B25 heads. In other words, to keep the compression ratio in check you would want a deeper piston to count the shallower chamber. It would appear that I have a shallow combustion chamber and a shallow piston making for a higher compression ratio. How do I know this combo will work? It seems to not be jiving at this time. I am not aware of how the heads worked. I thought the B25 was a previous generation and and the D25 took over. You seem to be indicating that one came on the WRX and the other on the STI.

Yes, I am sitting at the standard bore of 3.918" I think which works out to be 99.517mm. I spent some time on JE's website trying to find a set of rings and wow was that difficult. If I am to buy from them I guess I will be calling them.

As I bet you can tell the head got knocked around a bit off the motor. There is a bit of a gash in a couple places, one that traverses a gasket seal and if you look closely the ground prong on the one spark plug is bent to the side of the electrode.

[STiPWRD]

Those cylinder bores don't look too bad at all, especially if smooth to the finger nail. The deck surfaces on the block and heads just need a good cleaning and checked for flatness. Depending on any damage to the sealing surfaces or out-of-tolerance flatness, they may need to be resurfaced. Sorry, I'm not familiar with the differences b/w the B25 and D25 heads.

There are ways to measure compression ratio if you're not sure of your head/piston combo. The combustion chamber in the heads and the displacement volume in the block can be filled with liquid and the volume difference can be compared b/w the top and bottom of the stroke. Take the head gasket thickness into account and it's possible to calculate compression ratio. I'd check youtube and there was also a powerblock episode on this.

Running wrx heads with an STI block isn't OEM but many have done this including myself. It's referred to as a hybrid setup because your taking heads meant for a 2.0L and putting them on a 2.5L shortblock. This is commonly done to allow wrx owners to easily increase displacement without having to drastically change connections to the cylinder heads, ECU, etc. (my donor was a 2002 wrx). JE makes the 291059 piston precisely for this "hybrid setup." Sorry, didn't mean to cause confusion but thought I'd bring it up since you have aftermarket pistons. Chances are very likely that your parts should all be compatible.

[jforand]

Those cylinder bores don't look too bad at all, especially if smooth to the finger nail. The deck surfaces on the block and heads just need a good cleaning and checked for flatness. Depending on any damage to the sealing surfaces or out-of-tolerance flatness, they may need to be resurfaced. Sorry, I'm not familiar with the differences b/w the B25 and D25 heads.

I might just run it the way it is and see what happens. I also might try to determine what a ring set will look like from JE. I am really on the fence. I have done this before on an engine with a simple light bottle hone and new rings. If the cost isn't ridiculous and I have a pretty good chance of reusing the ARP rod bolts (they are supposed to be reusable) then I might go for it. I just really want to be assembling, not disassembling

There are ways to measure compression ratio if you're not sure of your head/piston combo. The combustion chamber in the heads and the displacement volume in the block can be filled with liquid and the volume difference can be compared b/w the top and bottom of the stroke. Take the head gasket thickness into account and it's possible to calculate compression ratio. I'd check youtube and there was also a powerblock episode on this.

I have see this episode you speak of. They siliconed a clear plate across the combustion chamber and metered in colored liquid until they were perfectly filled (no air/no extra water). The piston would be the same deal while the cylinder/head gasket is just math.

Running wrx heads with an STI block isn't OEM but many have done this including myself. It's referred to as a hybrid setup because your taking heads meant for a 2.0L and putting them on a 2.5L shortblock. This is commonly done to allow wrx owners to easily increase displacement without having to drastically change connections to the cylinder heads, ECU, etc. (my donor was a 2002 wrx). JE makes the 291059 piston precisely for this "hybrid setup." Sorry, didn't mean to cause confusion but thought I'd bring it up since you have aftermarket pistons. Chances are very likely that your parts should all be compatible.

So is the WRX a 2.0L while the STI bumped up to a 2.5L Turbo?

[jforand]

STiPWRD, I was looking through the engine manual and for the life of me I cannot find a section that talks about attaching the heads to the short block. Is it just me or is it missing? There has got to be a section for that. Head bolts, torque values and sequence. Seems like everything else is in there.

[STiPWRD]

So is the WRX a 2.0L while the STI bumped up to a 2.5L Turbo?

From 02-05, the wrx was a 2.0L (EJ205), from 06-07 I think it went up to 2.5L (EJ255)
The USDM sti came out in 04 and has kept the 2.5L (EJ257)
Both the wrx and sti had turbos

STiPWRD, I was looking through the engine manual and for the life of me I cannot find a section that talks about attaching the heads to the short block. Is it just me or is it missing? There has got to be a section for that. Head bolts, torque values and sequence. Seems like everything else is in there.

Are you looking in the 04 sti FSM?
Check in the Engine Section/Mechanical/General description.pdf, pg. 7 of 20.
This is the assembly drawing of the cylinder head and cam shafts, which shows the cylinder head bolts (item #11)
cylinder head.jpgitems.jpg
The OEM torque spec and sequence is in the cylinder head assembly pdf file in the same Mechanical directory
Although if you have ARP head bolts, I would use the torque spec provided by ARP since those are rated to a higher strength than the OEM bolts.

[jforand]

I did manage to find the section in the Cylinder Head section. I looked right past it about 7 times. My apologies. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, I am planning on using ARP studs and will use their numbers.

[jforand]

A bit of progress and some unfortunate learning tonight.

First, I was able to press the rear hub back apart and not harm the bearing at all. One inner seal bit the dust which did not really have to, a bit of a bummer but far better than a bearing. With the hub off I was about to get a bracket template going out of some 1/4 plywood. I think it is pretty close. When the rotors get here tomorrow I will be able to square it all away and start making it out of the final material. I think I would like to shoot for 1/4" plate steel. It appears at this time that the mounting face of the caliper needs to be flush with the mounting surface on the knuckle. This makes it pretty easy. What ever material is bolted on can simple be welded to the back of that bracket to reestablish the datum.

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Second, I decided to throw in the donor steering wheel. Yes, yes, the para-cord wrap is very nice and something I might have to transfer to the actual wheel With the wheel all the way down and probably 1.5" of spacers I think it is approaching a fairly comfortable position.

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I can tell everyone, they do not make these cars for 6'2" to 6'3" people. I will need to have the seat all the way up against the tank. I will further need the pedals as far forward as possible. Finally, I think I will be needing to raise the roll bar up a decent amount. I tried the broom stick test. I believe that your head needs to be below a straight line from the top of the roll bar to the top of the front roll bar. Well, the tape (did not have a long enough broom stick) is sitting right on my head without a helmet. I would further assume that you really want a couple inches there for margin. I think it was Blu that just talked about all the frame modifications and having to raise the roll bar 6". I believe that I will be following in his foot steps. Kind of a bummer, but you have to do what you have to do.

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[STiPWRD]

There are a few things you could try to lower yourself in there:
1. Lower the seat closer to the frame, rework the brackets
2. Find a thinner fixed back seat
3. Move the bottom of the seat further back by using a different fuel tank

Boyd makes a nice tank that's specifically meant to give you more leg room.
https://fueltankparts.com/products/f...ealth-340-pump
Some 818 builders have also put a custom fuel cell in the front and some R builders have put a fuel cell in the passenger seat area.

I'm 6'2" and after I sat in my 818 the first time I knew I had to make some of these mods, now I fit pretty good. I also used a smaller steering wheel for more knee room.

[jforand]

There are a few things you could try to lower yourself in there:
1. Lower the seat closer to the frame, rework the brackets
2. Find a thinner fixed back seat
3. Move the bottom of the seat further back by using a different fuel tank

Thanks for the ideas. I did a bit of reading on this last night. I think the best order of operations is going to be get the pedals in, which is in progress. I am going with the Wilwood pedal box. I think I am going to work on getting those set back about 2 inches. Mitch Wright is selling me an extra set and he accomplished the exact same thing on his. Then I think I need to determine the seat I am going to run. I can then work on the spacing as the pedals will be optimized. The steering rack should probably work in at this time as well. I was hoping to not have to mess with the fuel tank and or rear firewall, but I guess we'll see as I start to lock stuff in.

At the current time I had no brackets on whatever cheap seat came with the car/parts I picked up. It is a fiberglass bucket and no mounting brackets whatsoever. I simply threw it on the floor of the chassis. It is not going to get lower unless I cut into the X bracing on the bottom of the chassis and I can't see that being a very good idea. There needs to be something there and it would only gain me a half inch maybe.

The incline of the seat is also something that I was a bit worried about. I know the shapes will change with the brands and models, but here with the butt all the way back to where the FFR firewall will be results in a very upright seating posture. I think anymore would be very uncomfortable. In addition, the more vertical I get the worse the broom stick gets and I already violate that.

Boyd makes a nice tank that's specifically meant to give you more leg room.
https://fueltankparts.com/products/f...ealth-340-pump
Some 818 builders have also put a custom fuel cell in the front and some R builders have put a fuel cell in the passenger seat area.

I'm 6'2" and after I sat in my 818 the first time I knew I had to make some of these mods, now I fit pretty good. I also used a smaller steering wheel for more knee room.

I had seen mention of the Boyd tank several times. Thank you for forwarding the link. It looks interesting. I do really hope I don't have to augment any of that thought. Seems to me a front fuel cell would really mess with the weight and balance as you burn fuel. Roughly 60 pounds of fuel in the nose coming, going, and sloshing. I really like the idea of that being mid ship. I have seen the passenger tank as well. I am pretty sure I have at least one daughter that will kill me if there is not a passenger seat in this car!!!!

Oh, on the steering wheel/column. I am about 100% certain that the OEM rack will not be used. I think I will be going with a race oriented simple column with a detachable wheel of a smaller diameter.

[jforand]

Well, it almost pains me as a mechanical engineer to put this up here, but I thought it was kind of humorous. It by no means is up to professional par! This is the rear caliper bracket that I came up with for the ATS-V Cadillac Brembos on all four corners. A very tough part to measure well. I am going to try to get this in CAD and see how much a water jet place will charge to cut them out. I think they can do cardboard as well (most likely by laser) so it might make sense to have them do that first, make any tweaks, and then turn out the real McCoy.

The paper 'ear' tab will overlap the wooden piece and be welded on all available interfaces.

Rear Caliper Bracket.jpg

[Ajzride]

3D print a test one yourself rather than getting a cardboard one cut. You will find yourself able to make test parts for anything you want laser cut and then you will be able to make dozens of custom brackets and spacers for the build. Well worth the investment. I just upgraded my 3D printer to expand my capabilities for this build.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Creality-En...EAAOSwdJJbba2W

[jforand]

That is a very interesting idea. Now that you mention it I have seen some of your posts concerning 3D printing. I'll have to go do a search and see if I can find your stuff. 199 is pretty ridiculous cheap! Is the link the one you upgraded to or did you go bigger/better. My brother in law actually has one (for a while now) and I think it was a lot more expensive in the past.

I get the testing, but what areas have you been able to get away with the printed product as the final piece?

[Ajzride]

That link I sent you is something in-between what I had, and what I have now. It's the same size as my 5 year old one, but a lot higher quality, and with way more options. My new is crazy big (400mm x 400mm x 700mm) because I'm going to be 3D printing the bucks for my custom body panels with it (they will be printed in pieces, glued together, smoothed, and have a mold made from them).

Where can you use 3D printed parts? Pretty much any non-stressful bracket not in the engine bay. I made a bracket for my cruise control switch, my steering column lowering and recessing, I'm making brackets to hold my keyless entry to the column, making brackets to mount the factory dash to the frame. I'll make brackets to hold the body panels to the frame, I'll make brackets to for seat belt guides, I even plan to 3D print new headlight buckets (smooth then and wrap in Carbon Fiber). Over on the SLC forum there is a guy who 3D printed a really slick engine cover and wrapped in in carbon fiber.

Printing with PETG is just as cheap as PLA, but it won't soften until over 100C, which is 212F, so it will keep its strength and shape even in the Georgia heat, just keep it away from the headers.

[jforand]

I really need to dial out some of the A.D.D. I have going on here. I can't seems to settle down and stick with one area.

I set out to come up with a Rear Caliper Bracket solution for mounting the Cadillac brakes on the rear. I have a set of the nicely machined aluminum ones that were for sales a while back, but they don't work on the STI hub. So after coming up with the solution up in Post #93 I started to run into big issues getting it accurately dimensioned. I really did not want to spend money on a water jet just to have to grind away. and enlarge holes and such. So I went out and downloaded Fusion 360 and started playing. This is what I came up with and am currently going out for pricing. We'll see where it come in at. Really would like to get these back and on the car as I have the rear hubs pressed out and open greased up bearings in bags just waiting to get damaged or go for a roll in the dirt!

RCB.jpg

I also got a Wilwood pedal box in the mail the other day (thanks Mitch). In looking at how to squeeze myself into the car (6'3") I have been pondering a lot. I was considering raising the roll bar, but that still leaves a VERY vertical seating position that I am not happy with. I really think that Zach34 has this worked out in the best manner for my needs. I finally bit the bullet and cut into the new powder coating.

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Need to source metal to start fab'ing the rework.

Also took the opportunity to press in some new ARP wheel lugs 100-7717 (well, 3 hubs). I went ahead and swapped out to the Mitsubishi lugs that have a more course thread.

Also dove into the steering rack and the bump steer issue. I have decided to go with the straight through 5/8" bolt option and the conical spacer. I do feel that it is very important to have a proper and well toleranced hole. As such, I have a 0.0005 undersized pilot reamer on order. This should work nicely to get a good fit. Might need to put some heat to it to get it in there, but that is perfect in my opinion.

Finally, I have started to get things in order to start working my way through build the engine. Full gasket kit, piston rings, ARP studs, probably and oil pump. Once the valve spring compressor gets here I will be tearing down the heads. I also have a hone on order and a set of rings standing by.

[lsfourwheeler]

If you need any engine parts, I have a EJ25 block with EJ20 heads available for parts. It's got the JE Hybrid pistons. Engine has like zero miles because it appears to have spun a rod bearing on the dyno.

[jforand]

If you need any engine parts, I have a EJ25 block with EJ20 heads available for parts. It's got the JE Hybrid pistons. Engine has like zero miles because it appears to have spun a rod bearing on the dyno.

Thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind. I think I have what I need at this time. I will be refreshing my short block with new JE rings on the Forged JE pistons. It has forged rods as well. I think I have a fairly good start to build from. I will be getting into the heads soon and see if there are any surprises. When you say the EJ20 head what is the casting number? I have D25, thinking you are talking about B25.

[Pearldrummer7]

Sweet thread, and cool built R. I'm a few hours North of you (Asheville NC) and come by that way a bunch. I've got an R from 2014 (nothin' fancy) if you ever wanna check some stuff out once this quarantine is over! It's registered too, so we can prolly rip up Tail of the Dragon

[jforand]

Glad you enjoyed it. I hope to keep it going. Got those front square tubes tacked in last night and I moved the transmission off the operating table tonight to make room for a nice clean engine tear down and rebuild.

Good to know you’re close. It seems a lot of these guys aren’t in the SE. I was just thinking the other day that I might forgo all the DOT stuff just to make this thing quicker and simpler to the end. We’ll see how this progresses. I just found Sgt. Gator’s halo design and really like it. Going to need to make a decision to pull the trigger on that or pass relatively soon.

[jforand]

I tacked in a few pieces I was able to make out of the one tube I cut out. I think it is going to work out fine. I am fighting the urge to fully burn it in until I get the rest of the stuff in to validate everything. I ideally it would be the seat and steering, as well as, determining the brake line fittings that will emerge form the master cylinders to cut the clearance. I think I can squeeze it between the two frame members without having to notch them. this will likely result in my steering being about 0.5" inboard of the exact seat center. I think it will be fine. I would rather not compromise the tubes with a notch if I don't have too.

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The angle on the left of the pic (toward the center of the car) will be different, this was just a quick mock up. There should be little to no interference with the real mounting solution.

[Pearldrummer7]

Glad you enjoyed it. I hope to keep it going. Got those front square tubes tacked in last night and I moved the transmission off the operating table tonight to make room for a nice clean engine tear down and rebuild.

Good to know you’re close. It seems a lot of these guys aren’t in the SE. I was just thinking the other day that I might forgo all the DOT stuff just to make this thing quicker and simpler to the end. We’ll see how this progresses. I just found Sgt. Gator’s halo design and really like it. Going to need to make a decision to pull the trigger on that or pass relatively soon.

I did my inspection in NY (was fairly tough) and had a LOT of moments of "I should just give up on the legality part". Really glad I didn't now, even if just from a test-and-tune perspective pre-track day. The occasional drive to work on a nice day is a bonus, though it's rare

[jforand]

I totally agree with you. How can you get the thing running well enough to even buy track time if you can't put it on the street? I also think that if and when the eventual sell of the vehicle comes along it should squelch some fears if you have a tag on it. I might lean on you for motivation to stay the course when the going gets rough

[jforand]

The short block tear down (and I'm glad I did it).

First thing I noticed was a significant difference in breaking torque required moving through all of the bolts. Anyone see a suspicious cover fin laying where it should not be? What is that bolt doing in there? Sure seems to be a make shift plug of sorts, which interfered with the cover's fin.

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Case splitting. Anyone see a main bearing poking up to take a look at the camera? Looks like it was about to spin.

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Not really happy with the main bearings at all. I was hoping to get away with just honing and re-ringing. Not the case... It is hard to see it on camera, but the journals are all grooved and the finger nail catches on a ton of stuff. Even some rust on the center oil groove on the rear bearing. There is also significant grooving where the front and rear oil seals rode on the crank.

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The situation bit not get much better with the rod bearings, just a couple pics of those.

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Looks like I need to find a decent machine shop to get the crank resurfaced and polished. The where on the mains was not exactly uniform either. It seems that a resurface and a line hone might be a good idea there as well.

I have yet to tear into the heads.

Does anyone know of a trustworthy Subaru guy in the Atalanta Georgia area?

[Hindsight]

Does anyone know of a trustworthy Subaru guy in the Atalanta Georgia area?

For engine work? So few people machine Subaru engines. All the shops I know of in Atlanta and nearly anywhere else don't do it. Everyone just buys a new OEM short block or a staged short block from somewhere like IAG or Out-Front (which use new OEM shortblocks as the base). You can get a brand new short block for a little under $2,000. You have a pretty big laundry list of machining you will need to get done, plus parts.... not sure how much money you are going to save by to the time that's all over vs just getting a new short block and bolting your old heads up to it. If you have your heart set on using your existing components and having everything machined, I'd ship it off to a Subaru specialty machinist before I'd let any "general" local engine machine shop touch it. Most local places aren't going to be used to working with Subarus nor have the torque plates and tooling required to properly machine the two-piece engine case. It would be so awful to pay all that money for engine machining, plus assembly time and money for bearings and gaskets and all that only to have it blow up.

[taco20]

Hey the shop that built my motor is down in Florida which isn’t to far away and they can do it all. My heads are at the shop right now getting redone after loosing a cam pulley going into turn one at VIR and bending all my valves. They built my hole motor, aloud me to install it at their shop, broke it in on the dyno and tuned it for me. I live in Virginia and it was worth the drive for the service they provided and continue to provide. They will help you get the motor right for our cars not just a pick one from the list like the big name places like IAG. Anyway give them a call, email, or Facebook. https://www.revworksinc.com/

[jforand]

Thanks for the replies. I can understand the new short block side of things. I will take some time and start researching both side of this equation. I know there are a lot of people that can totally butcher this up. I do have about 1500 in forged pistons and rods. It would be a shame not to be able to use those.

I’ll give the guys in Florida a call and see what they say. If the bill starts getting up there, which it could easily do then I might have to consider just buying the parts. I actually have another long block that apparently blew a head gasket. In theory I could yank that apart and see if the crank is in better condition. Then it might just be new bearings and rings and I can build it up.

Taco, what do you think the issue with your cam pulley was. I hope it did not have to do with their build....

[Rob T]

Not to scare you, but I also had a cam pulley twist off on a cold start at the track. EJ257. Not exactly sure, but best guess is that it was a faulty head re-build. I went with new heads after that.

[taco20]

Hey I had the plastic pulley separate from the internal metal gear that is made into it on the passenger side head. The motor has been together for 3 years and I run the **** out of it at the track. RevWorks has seen the issue before and I am replacing the pulleys with metal ones that should stop the issue. The motor was out of a wrecked car when I got it and it was the only pulley that hadn’t been replaced so I don’t see how I can fault RevWorks for the issue. I am also upgrading the belt tensioner and belt to some new high grip setup that they use on their drag engine so hopefully I will have no more issues in the future.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hi Justin,
Great to have another R coming along. I've just gone thru your entire thread and have a few comments, sorry I'm late to the game here.
In your post #4 you have ID'd the transmission correctly as a 08-09 STI, but I think your gear ratios are wrong. From my sources the gear ratios are: 3.636 / 2.235 / 1.521 / 1.137 / 0.971 / 0.756

Here are some images that explain the differences of the 08 STI 6 speed from the earlier STI 6 speeds.

......


Regarding your engine: What is your HP/TQ goal? If you are building to eventually race in competition it's very important that you pick the class you want to race in and then build to that class. The wrong way to do it is to build a cool and fast car, then try to find a class to race in! I've done that as well as 90% of everyone else who has modded their street cars with neat tuner gear, only to discover that one or two mods have bumped them into a class where they aren't even close to competitive without spending a boatload more $$$$.

Since you are already a NASA member, and NASA has a great program in their ST classing, I suggest you pick a ST class and build precisely to the limits of that class. Your engine HP/TQ goals will be set by the total car build because other mods to your car will require a different HP/TQ to stay in the class. https://supertouring.nasaseries.com/

Which brings me to the rebuild your shortblock vs buy a new OEM block....if you go thru the above classing process and decide that you want 300 HP/TQ or less then IMHO you should buy a new EJ257 shortblock from Subaru. The build vs buy shorblock has been discussed innumerable times on the Legacy GT forum, NASIOC, and IWSTI. The consensus is that at stock power levels you can't beat a new oem shortblock for both cost and reliability. Many even say up to 400 HP at the wheels, but in my opinion those are people who have street cars. They don't “live” at 400 HP like a full on race car does for hours at a time, so I and the tuners I trust prefer to set the oem shortblock limit at 300 AWD HP for a road race car.

The best price on a EJ257 shipped to your door will be from Heuberger Subaru in Colorado. If you have a relationship with your local Subaru dealer ask their parts manager if they will match the Heuberger online price. Today's price is $1,719.99 plus shipping. Rallysport Direct will sell you one for $1,999.0 with Free Shipping.

If you want 400HP in your R then yes, you should rebuild it with your forged parts. Or pay IAG or Outfront to do it.

Hope this helps.

[jforand]

Great post Gator!

That is interesting on the transmission. I don't think I saved the sheet that I located on line, but there was a massive sheet that had pretty much everything under the sun on it. I'll have to pay attention if/when I come across it again. In the end it will be what it is. Adjusting gear ratios is WAY down the list for me a this time. I need an engine to spin it and a car to put it in....a seat would be nice as well. Steering, that can probably wait I took out all the oil channeling and mechanics from the tail housing. It really can't get much lighter and there is nothing left that needs lubricated. I think I am good to go on the trans.

Your commentary about picking the class is a very good point. I have not looked into any of that stuff at this time. I have basically zero knowledge on this Subaru stuff and really have no idea where to begin picking it up. What I was thinking was just build a nice stout motor without anything crazy as cheaply as I can. The pistons and the rods should really do nothing for HP alone. They do not appreciably change the compression ratio necessitating crazy tuning to my knowledge. Later down the road if I want to raise the stakes I will have something to build from. The current plan it to blow apart my extra long block and see if that crank is good. If it is I will figure out how to cobble things together. If it is not then the new OEM short block starts to sound very good. The other aspect are the heads. I have a couple D25's that look ok, but I have not torn them down yet. That will be after the block tear downs. If they end up being trash then I might be looking at a new OEM long block. I have been learning here and there, but it is very tough to decipher the facts from people (no shortage of them) pontificating away.

Can I say how much I am liking the cam sprocket bolts? They are AWESOME. I spent about 5 hrs yesterday on one of them and it is still winning. Going back and forth between the hold on the sprocket not being good enough, then the leverage on the bolt not being big enough. Up the game on one and the other becomes the short fall again. I just picked up the Irwin bolt extractors at lunch today and I fabricobbled a sprocket holder. Hopefully it pops loose. If not I will have to get a lot more serious about holding the sprocket. Really wish they would have put some hexes on the cam shafts.

IMG_5060.jpg

I did manage to get the rear brake caliper brackets 3D printed thanks to my brother in law and nephew!. They are pretty cool in my opinion. I will be making a couple tweaks to the files to bolster some strength and provide a tad more clearance in one area. Then it is time to find an affordable manufacturer. If you can zoom in, the pencil will be increased overlap and the blue sharpie will be increased clearance. Just need to get it up on the car with the rotor to do a file check on everything.

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I did get a reply from NASA SE Tech about people to contact for cage building. I also got a name and number off the cage in a car my father-in-law used to run. So, I will start the quest to determine what a halo looks like in cost, time, location, and form.

[jforand]

AHAHAHA, I win!

It was a grueling battle, but I persevered over the dreaded Cam Sprocket Bolt. This is a lot less impressive here in the forum where the pain and suffering does not extend over hours.....

The Irwin bolt extractors did not work at all. I do not know what happened to this bolt, but it did not want to come out. There was nothing on that bolt head that could sustain the force required to break it loose. This is really a bit of an anomaly as the bolt is not that large (ultimate torque specs) and the threads we perfect when I did get it out. It really had to come down to the flange on the bolt against the sprocket. It is an exceptionally large flange for the thread diameter.

IMG_5062.JPGIMG_5061.jpg

Now I can continue with the long block tear down.

[jforand]

So with the cam bolt out i was able to pull the last head on the long block and break it down. I'm in search of a good block and crank shaft.

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Good start. Mud in the cylinder, a few stuck valves, and dowels the look like the inflatable advertising sock things they put in front of the cellular phone store!!! I can only assume the engine got dropped to do this damage, though I don't see any witness marking or damage on the outside. I am pretty positive that both head gaskets were blown. Carbon making it out of the combustion chamber and over to the water jacket is pretty tell tail. Also, this is my first experience with a turbo, but I thought it was pretty neat that in breaking the case and head bolts loose I get pressure releases that spit some old coolant at me. I have no idea how long this engine sat like this, but I would guess years.

After working quit a bit to get things moving hopefully without causing any new damage to the crank, these are the pistons that came out.

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Kind of starting to think, "why go on" at this point. Some browser history might show me looking up new short and long blocks......

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Whoa, as it turns out the crank is pretty much perfect!! This is really only one spot that I can catch with a finger nail (really not that badly) and it is the stock, standard dimension on both the mains and rods. What a pleasant surprise.

I know need to make a decision on the block itself. I have JE pistons for a standard cylinder bore that I would like to use. The bores on the short block they came in look very good. It would be a simply 'deglazing' and re-ringing, but there is one or two areas of the block that have been altered and not to my liking. The long block's block is all good except the cylinder bores took a beating. I am going to make and attempt to clean them up, but I can't imagine that I will get them looking good and still be anywhere close tot he standard bore. I am pretty positive I will find pitting that would need to be bored out.

We shall see soon enough.

Main and Rod bearings, what are you all doing for them? IAG seems to be using ACL, but I have seen quit a bit of bad press on them (ACL) lately. It is hard to know what to believe, thought I would tend to side with IAG. I know the Subiperfomance out in Germany seems to live by Mahle. There are still others that are saying that King is pretty decent. Need to pull the trigger on some so I can get this thing going in the right direction. Thanks for any input.

[jforand]

Also started playing with that head with the stuck valves above in post #114

I tore it all the way down, plugs and all. Got it all cleaned up. You have to be careful with oven cleaner, but I am really liking its effectiveness. I made sure to keep it out of the inside (camshaft section). It will etch clean aluminum pretty much instantly, so I did not want it on the journals (or bearing surfaces like in the lifter) at all. A couple minutes with that and a brush ended with a pressure washing. Then cleaned out the valve guides, lapped all the valves and started tracking positions at this time. It was then time for an assembly to see if this was going to be a workable unit. Tings went together well and and looked good so I kept moving forward. Time to figure out if I could get all the lash in spec. It took two iterations of measuring, mixing, and matching with the lifters I had to work with. In the end I got everything in spec with only two being toward the high end, but still comfortably within spec.

So the last thing was the resurfacing. I decided to give the glued sandpaper to a nice piece of glass a try. I started with 320 grit, ran out and used 400, then finished with 600. Keeping it wet really works wonders for lubrication, keeping the paper clear, and enhancing the cutting action. I will let you watch the spots fade away as you tab through the pics.

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The setup and a whole bunch of Core excercise I think it turned out pretty awesome.

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So after a tear down, final cleaning, and reassembly it is on the shelf waiting for something to bolt it too. The other head will start the process soon.

[Hobby Racer]

AHAHAHA, I win!
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Just curious, did you stick , mig or tig weld that nut onto the bolt?

[jforand]

Just curious, did you stick , mig or tig weld that nut onto the bolt?

Mig. Worked like a champ. After the quick heat blast from the welding, about 20 seconds later I hit it with an electric impact, which btw was completely inadequate prior. You could not hold things rigidly enough to get the full benefit of the impact. It just buzzed right off, don't really even think I needed to hold the sprocket at all. Just need to make sure things are clean and the ground clamp is on the nut. Don't want any current trying to flow through the cam shaft and journals. That would likely be game over.

[STiPWRD]

Nice work on those heads, be sure to check flatness with a straight edge.

[Sgt.Gator]

Subaru Cam Bolt Removal by Outfront Motorsports Inc.


I keep my old CV axle nuts in a box just for this purpose! If you want to never worry about it again the TiC FU Cam Bolt Kit has a very robust nut. But then you can't use the
Company 23 Cam Lock Tool. http://www.company23.com/506

[Sgt.Gator]