Power Steering, Y / N?

[Para]

I am about to buy a kit and this is another one I have to decide.
On the one hand the car is light as a feather
On the other hand a V8 is sitting on really wide tires
I owned a car with manual steering when I was young and all you had to do was
to make sure the care was rolling even the tiniest bit and it was ok.
Bring the car to a stop and you have a workout on your hands

Not a big deal w/o PS and I tell you for an old car I could feel every pebble under the tires
On the other hand, one fingered driving aint bad either

On a scale of 1-10 how hard is manual steering on one of these?

....Does F5 have units you can test drive?

[cob427sc]

I have built/owned/driven 7 FFR cars, none with power steering and never really missed it. Currently have a 33 HR and this has the heaviest steering of them all (or is it my advanced age?) but once its rolling no problems at all. I don't believe F5 has test drives anymore (in the early days they toss you the keys and say go have fun. Insurance companies frowned.) Most people who have cars are willing to let you at least sit and ride in their build. Post your location and if anyone is close they'll show you what you need to know.

[swwebb]

As you mentioned, manual steering is hard when you are stopped. It's a 7 on my scale.

I added electric power steering after a couple of years with manual. I won't go back. The advantage with power steering is that you can add caster so it tracks straight better. I'm sure others will chime in. The advantage of electric power steering is that it is adjustable on the fly, so you can have manual steering if you want. However, with the added caster, I'm not sure if you would want to!!

[NAZ]

Race cars don't have power steering! I have 6-degrees of caster on my car and manual steering -- no problem for this old man.

[BradCraig]

I've never driven one without PS and I'm guessing it isn't bad. However, I REALLY like my KRC power steering an it gives just the right amount of resistance as to not feel like a Cadillac. When making my decision I found no one that said they wish they didn't do PS and I wanted my Wife to be able to handle it when she drove it.

[wallace18]

I have built 14 FFR kits. On the ones I built for customers that did not want PS they wished they had listened to me and had it installed once they drove the finished car. Almost every car since the 1980's has had PS and PB. I personally will not own one without unless it is an 818 which is so light it does not need it. Just my 2 cents worth.

[GoDadGo]

I've only built one Factory Five MK4 and it has a manual rack.
Do I wish the car had Power Steering?
Nope!

Note:..The primary use of my car is cruising around with Mrs. Go-Dad & rare trips down the 1/8 or 1/4 mile drag strip.

[rich grsc]

I've only built one Factory Five MK4 and it has a manual rack.
Do I wish the car had Power Steering?
Nope!

Note:..The primary use of my car is cruising around with Mrs. Go-Dad & rare trips down the 1/8 or 1/4 mile drag strip.

Because you don't know any better

[Papa]

I think this topic has been discussed many times and it's the same every time; strong opinions on both sides. I went with power steering on my car and like it. If properly set up, it doesn't feel light at all, but makes parking effortless. It also improves front end geometry compared with the "standard" manual setup. If you're asking about it, you're probably a good candidate to go power.

Dave

[edwardb]

Yup, talked about a lot. You'll get strong opinions on both sides. My standard response: Power steering isn't only about the effort, even though most seem to go there. Including your initial question and most of the responses so far. The big advantage is the improved front end geometry with increased caster. Just plain drives better. I've had both and won't go back.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Pros-and-cons

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...Power-steering

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...anual-Steering

No, Factory Five doesn't allow test drives. Some have been lucky enough to get a ride from Dave though.

[Wbauman]

Both here too. PS no question and I’m a muscle bound gear head and always had manual setups. Once I drove one with PS I wondered why I was so stubborn before. Believe me after Building 6 and hardly driving them, anything you do to make the experience more enjoyable will get you on the car more.

Yeah yeah the shear power and raw race car is fun for a little while.

[Ducky2009]

I've driven both. That said, I have PS and power brakes

[mike223]

1:On the one hand the car is light as a feather
On the other hand a V8 is sitting on really wide tires

2:I owned a car with manual steering when I was young and all you had to do was
to make sure the care was rolling even the tiniest bit and it was ok.
Bring the car to a stop and you have a workout on your hands

3:Not a big deal w/o PS and I tell you for an old car I could feel every pebble under the tires
On the other hand, one fingered driving aint bad either.

On all three counts you have it exactly right.

A few further thoughts on each:

1 - You've got it exactly right.

2 - You know exactly what to expect, and you ain't as young as you used to be - I started with manual, and it was exactly what I expected + not bad (if you know what to expect). Changed over to EPAS because I wasn't sure I'd want to continue to wrestle with it in advancing years. Also added a 1.5:1 steering quickener for autocross + other enthusiastic driving endeavors and you definitely don't want to try a ratio faster than 15:1 (about as fast as you can get std manual) without some form of power assist.

3 - You've got it exactly right (and time isn't doing any of us any favors).

[frd2]

Many add it after the fact. Almost none remove it.

[frankb]

As frd2 above stated, I am one of those who added it after the build was finished and driven for a year or so. It was manageable without power steering, especially since I never parallel parked it. But it was a workout when not moving or moving slow! So I added it in (E Power Steering) a year or so ago and am very happy I did. I keep it adjusted to minimum assist level and can only tell it is there when moving slow! Bottom line: If you are unsure, go with electric power steering and you can have it both ways! I'm betting you won't do without it once you have tried it!

[ggunter]

I have driven both and I love my power steering!!!

[steno]

After a couple years, went with power steering. Plain old school OEM-type with the pressure spring trimmed to 1 7/16”. Plenty of assist when you need it, and great driving at speed due to the added caster.

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's no secret that edwardb and I are probably the top two proponents of power steering you'll find here. EVERY car I've built has it and EVERY one who asks me is advised to do it. People seem to think that it's all about steering effort, especially some of the "manly men" who like to do some chest thumping but the reality is that is far from the primary reason. Power steering allows you to run much more positive caster which promotes straight line stability and return to center as well as increasing camber gain while cornering. Plain and simple the car just drives down the road better. For autocross and track use it is pretty much mandatory if you really want to be able to get the most out of the car (some of those same manly men find out that there is no way they can truly hustle a manual rack car). As far as "road feel" this can be tuned to the driver's preference either by the use of a Heidt's variable boost valve or by changes to the pressure relief spring.

In the end...Just do it!

Jeff

[CaptB]

Power steering.

[rich grsc]

This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside. As has been stated, the best improvement come in how much better the car drives and handles, ease of steering is second. Had manual steering in the old car, power in this one, was amazed how much the stability of car improved on the highway. Don't think about just do it.

[NAZ]

Silly? Perhaps. But is it not silly to run power steering, power brakes, and still shift your own gears when auto trans technology has supplanted the manual transmission? Autos are outperforming manual trans in a variety of racing disciplines -- there's no manual trans that shifts faster than an auto, not even those $30K sequential clutchless transmissions.

Or maybe it's just one of those personal choice things that makes us feel good. I feel good knowing that I don't have an extra 10lbs of weight on the front end of my race car because I want easier steering at slow speed. However, on my street cars I'd NEVER buy a daily driver without power steering. Even my 1600lb SXS off-road vehicle has power steering and I'm looking at replacing my two 700lb ATVs with ones with power steering. So I get it. But do you need power steering in one of these light cars? That's a personal choice. I know if John Wayne was buying one he'd skip the power steering as a real man doesn't need it.

[ptstew]

I installed PS using an early 90’s Mustang pump and a 3 turn LTL rack after driving my car for 18 years with manual steering. It’s the best change I ever made on the car!

[BradCraig]

This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside. As has been stated, the best improvement come in how much better the car drives and handles, ease of steering is second. Had manual steering in the old car, power in this one, was amazed how much the stability of car improved on the highway. Don't think about just do it.

Correct, stupid debate. I drove a 280Z for 8 years with no PS and i'll never do that again. If you are blasting the car down a drag strip, I get it.

[BradCraig]

Silly? Perhaps. But is it not silly to run power steering, power brakes, and still shift your own gears when auto trans technology has supplanted the manual transmission? Autos are outperforming manual trans in a variety of racing disciplines -- there's no manual trans that shifts faster than an auto, not even those $30K sequential clutchless transmissions.

Or maybe it's just one of those personal choice things that makes us feel good. I feel good knowing that I don't have an extra 10lbs of weight on the front end of my race car because I want easier steering at slow speed. However, on my street cars I'd NEVER buy a daily driver without power steering. Even my 1600lb SXS off-road vehicle has power steering and I'm looking at replacing my two 700lb ATVs with ones with power steering. So I get it. But do you need power steering in one of these light cars? That's a personal choice. I know if John Wayne was buying one he'd skip the power steering as a real man doesn't need it.

John Wayne also chose a horse over a bike. :-)

[CaptB]

"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?

[GoDadGo]

"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?

Hey Captain,

If you are talking about "The NAZ Man" his is a race car.
From the firewall back, his car was 100% fabricated by The NAZ Man.
Check it out and I'm sure you too will be impressed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=1675

Steve

[NAZ]

"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?

Agree. Just having fun with the debate and my buddy Rich, who I also share many opinions with. Did you notice I'm actually considering trading two perfectly good ATVs in for ones that have Power Steering, and the power steering is the only reason I'm considering them? I truly get it.

[rich grsc]

WAIT, so John Wayne's horse didn't have power steering?

[ggunter]

Don't NASCAR's have power steering...They are real race cars right?

[Jim Wehr]

I have it. My car was built for autocrossing, so it really was necessary. However, I have the boost turned way down for the street.

[GoDadGo]

Because you don't know any better

Correct!

[RBachman]

Yes. And more yes

[Nigel Allen]

When I drove my roadster as a go kart the manual steering felt fine. Once I added the body I didnt like it so much. For me, part of the issue is the confines of the cabin. I find I am only steering with one, to one and a half arms, as my elbow always hits on the door, and I am not a big guy, round, but not big. I guess I could have thrown the drivers door away, but the car gets too much attention already. So power steering was the solution. I only fitted it a couple of weeks ago and I'll never go back.

Cheers,

Nigel

[JIMOCO]

Both NASCAR and F1 have power steering but Indy cars do not.

[Avalanche325]

If you are going to even think about autocross - absolutely.

[Georgie]

Yes for power steering!

[Hoooper]

This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside.

Weight, steering feel, parasitic drag. Not really any question that PS adds weight, adds parasitic drag, and decreases steering feel. May not make it "worse" overall but no question those are real downsides.


On a separate note, its all a steering effort question in the end. As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from dialing in a manual steering alignment to the same specs as a power steering alignment other than steering effort

[rich grsc]

Weight, steering feel, parasitic drag. Not really any question that PS adds weight, adds parasitic drag, and decreases steering feel. May not make it "worse" overall but no question those are real downsides.


On a separate note, its all a steering effort question in the end. As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from dialing in a manual steering alignment to the same specs as a power steering alignment other than steering effort

I do, they bogus
Weight---the car is 2300#, 15# of steering pump is meaningless, I can take a dump and make 1/2 that
Parasitic drag---can't get all the power to the ground now, and I'm running Avon track tires
Steering feel---nothing different at all between this car and my old non-power car, in fact this one is WAY more stable and sure footed
Go ahead and put 8* of caster in your car and tell me how great the road feel is.

[Nigel Allen]

100% agree with Rich. Just dropped my daughter at school, then went for a spirited drive through some great twisties nearby. (Absolutely perfect driving weather over here right now) First run on this route since fitting EPAS a couple of weeks ago. Parasitic loss? Who cares. This thing is now so much quicker point to point.
Extra weight? Who cares. It is way quicker. (Took a dump before I left)
Reduced feel? Slightly, but most feedback was of big tyres trying to wrench the wheel from my grip on tight undulating bends. I don't miss that.
The car feels safer as it can be recovered quickly and is now rock solid. Oh yeah, did I mention that point to point is way quicker.

Over and out

[CobraboyDR]

Need some info here:

Why and how does PS allow more caster in a FFR?